PS4 Hard Drive: Replaceable / Up-gradable.

By GotBored
in PlayStation

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GotBored

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So all HDD drives come with SSD caches now? Seriously?

 

No hard drive comes with SSD caches, SSD Cache is when you use a standard HDD with a SSD and link them as one drive.

 

I don't think you understand what SSD cache is about so here is an explanation:

 

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/How-it-Works-Intel-SSD-Caching-148/

 

or here:

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/2

 

SSD Caching or Intel's SRT (Smart Response Technology) allows a SSD to boost a HDD's performance, but you still need both and having just SSD's (Solid State Drives) is faster.

Grand Master

spenser.d

Posted
Posted

There would be no performance hit by installing a larger hard drive.

You guys are really starting to struggle to justify what amounts to simply a bad decision.

See people said it was bad last time around, but it made almost no difference in the end. Its funny that anyone would expect anything more. Such a small amount of the market wants this that its no benefit to MS to implement it.

Grand Master

MorganX

Posted
Posted

No hard drive comes with SSD caches, SSD Cache is when you use a standard HDD with a SSD and link them as one drive.

 

I don't think you understand what SSD cache is about so here is an explanation:

 

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/How-it-Works-Intel-SSD-Caching-148/

 

or here:

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/2

 

SSD Caching or Intel's SRT (Smart Response Technology) allows a SSD to boost a HDD's performance, but you still need both and having just SSD's (Solid State Drives) is faster.

Hyrid Hard Drives do come with solid state caches. There's a slight price premium and they do perform better. Just hasn't taken off much with the performance of 64MB cache ram and the relatively low price of 128-256GB SSDs.

Grand Master

DrunknMunky Veteran

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  • Veteran
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There would be no performance hit by installing a larger hard drive.

 

You guys are really starting to struggle to justify what amounts to simply a bad decision.

 

:yes:

 

Especially now the X1 will be using BR. Those game installs are going to eat up 500 GB very fast on both consoles (N)

Veteran

GotBored

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Hyrid Hard Drives do come with solid state caches. There's a slight price premium and they do perform better. Just hasn't taken off much with the performance of 64MB cache ram and the relatively low price of 128-256GB SSDs.

 

SSD and HDD are physically two separate things, HDD reads off a disc, SSD (Solid State) has no disc of any kind or motors to drive the discs.

 

An hybrid drive is both in one module, its a HDD with a NAND Flash memory. So yes it is SSD caching but its the same thing I mentioned earlier.

 

Key word 'Hybrid'

Grand Master

MorganX

Posted
Posted

SSD and HDD are physically two separate things, HDD reads off a disc, SSD (Solid State) has no disc of any kind or motors to drive the discs.

 

An hybrid drive is both in one module, its a HDD with a NAND Flash memory. So yes it is SSD caching but its the same thing I mentioned earlier.

 

Key word 'Hybrid'

You are correct above but you did say no HDD comes with SSD caching. Technically, not correct. Intel SRT is fairly new. Microsoft a few years ago was actually pushing for SSD cache in HDDs but with OS optimizations and the emergence of low cost SSDs it kind of faded away. Also, SRT is not really worth it, though I don't believe you have to use the entire SSD. I have it but have no need to install it. I File History to an older 2TB SATA2 drive at 110MBs R/W. It's actually a silent green drive 5900 RPM so I'm good. Of course, for backup, speed really isn't an issue at this point. Storage capacity and speed really just aren't big issues anymore for PCs or Consoles. Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary.

Grand Master

compl3x

Posted
Posted

If the hdd fails you'd likely have to send it in to Sony anyways as you wouldn't be able to get the OS off of it and onto your new hdd.

 

No. You install a new HDD and it formats it ready for use.

 

See people said it was bad last time around, but it made almost no difference in the end. Its funny that anyone would expect anything more. Such a small amount of the market wants this that its no benefit to MS to implement it.

 

Based on what? Is there any research or figures in this area? Or is this just more of "If MS doesn't do it they must have a very good reason why" kind of stuff?

 

Frankly, when it comes to giving consumers what they want MS isn't exactly winning any awards.

Grand Master

MorganX

Posted
Posted

No. You install a new HDD and it formats it ready for use.

Formatting a new HD and installing firmware/OS from thumbdrive is one of the PS3's neater features.

Explorer

startscreennope

Posted
Posted

PS3/PS4 Replacable Hard Drive:
+You can use a larger/faster drive than the stock drive for more room and/or better performance.
+Doesn't void the warranty.
+You don't have to send the console in to Sony if your HD fails. You can buy a new HD and install the OS on it, then restore your files from a backup.
+Internal is faster than external, esp. with hybrid or SSD drives.
+Third party drives are much cheaper than MS's proprietary ones.
+PS4 also supports external storage devices.

Xbox One has none of those advantages, and a whole bunch of negatives:
-External drive enclosures are an extra expense.
-You have to send your console in to MS if the non-replacable drive fails. And no, MS isn't going to recover the files off the dead drive for you, that kind of diagnostic data recovery service is expensive.
-You can't install or run games from "the cloud", that's not what the """unlimited storage""" is for.
-MS will probably take you for a ride to replace the internal HD, given how expensive 360 drives are. That's on top of the shipping costs.

As usual the PS4 comes out ahead by far in the all important storage category.

I remember reading a while ago that the drive is non-replacable because making it replacable would cause airflow/heating issues, and the X1 was ordered to be near silent. The X1 being quieter than the PS4 might be one of the few advantages it has, although we don't know the noise levels of PS4 yet.

By the way, we don't know if either drive is a hybrid w/ flash cache. Obviously if one of them was a hybrid and one wasn't, the hybrid would have a speed advantage.

Actually I put a spare 128GB SSD into my PS3 and save game load times were noticably faster. I expect a real benefit for putting an SSD in PS4 as well.

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GotBored

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You are correct above but you did say no HDD comes with SSD caching. Technically, not correct. Intel SRT is fairly new. Microsoft a few years ago was actually pushing for SSD cache in HDDs but with OS optimizations and the emergence of low cost SSDs it kind of faded away. Also, SRT is not really worth it, though I don't believe you have to use the entire SSD. I have it but have no need to install it. I File History to an older 2TB SATA2 drive at 110MBs R/W. It's actually a silent green drive 5900 RPM so I'm good. Of course, for backup, speed really isn't an issue at this point. Storage capacity and speed really just aren't big issues anymore for PCs or Consoles. Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary.

 

Technically it is correct, the hybrid is not a HDD it is a hybrid HDD + SSD.

 

Also buying an SSD over a HDD isn't a hobby, its about performance and the SSD performs much better than the HDD.

Grand Master

MorganX

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Posted

Technically it is correct, the hybrid is not a HDD it is a hybrid HDD + SSD.

 

Also buying an SSD over a HDD isn't a hobby, its about performance and the SSD performs much better than the HDD.

It absolutely is an HDD with an SSD fro caching in the same enclosure. It is in effect the same as SRT. Separate SSD and HDD the only difference being SRT uses the PC case as the enclosure.

"Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary."

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GotBored

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"Enthusiasts always want to push the specs though, it's a hobby, it's fun, but it's rarely necessary."

 

No need for performance increases..

 

So you think we should be playing Atari 2600 instead?

 

Atari2600.jpg

 

I cannot understand how you can justify hardware improvements as unnecessary, you know how every software (including games) have minimum requirements to run.. well its necessary for your system to meet or exceed these requirements for it to function.

Grand Master

Showan

Posted
Posted

Now... It's hdd swap out that's being nitpicked about...

 

I've been saying, I swap out the hdd on my 60gb PS3 and 80gb PS3...

 

And it has been 7 and 6 years respectfully....  And guess what... I still have a 60bg PS3 and a 80gb PS3...

 

Its funny how the it's the petty none issues that matter... lets be honest...

 

You can't swap the hdd out... time to cancel the pre-orders.... etc, etc, insert rant, etc...

 

Get over yourselves...

 

It's funny how people try to drown out Microsoft's awesome features with petty little things...

  • MikeChipshop and spenser.d
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Grand Master

spenser.d

Posted
Posted

No need for performance increases..

 

So you think we should be playing Atari 2600 instead?

 

 

 

I cannot understand how you can justify hardware improvements as unnecessary, you know how every software (including games) have minimum requirements to run.. well its necessary for your system to meet or exceed these requirements for it to function.

 

And that's fine, in a PC context.  Wanting to improve your console hardware specs defeats the purpose of a console and the cost-benefit is miniscule anyways.  You're not going to see significant gains with any hard drive you choose, and you can't really replace any other hardware and expect anything out of it.  If you want to get into hardware improvements, PC gaming will take you in with open arms.  The point of console gaming is that it's optimized for a particular set of hardware and won't take advantage of anything else.

Grand Master

123456789A

Posted
Posted

As you all know, the future of storage is external. 

 

mac_pro_new.jpg

:D  :D  :D

 

I'm not following your post. You say the future of storage is external, but you post a picture of a wastebasket. Are you saying we would throw things away instead of upgrading them?

Grand Master

ahhell

Posted
Posted

And that's fine, in a PC context.  Wanting to improve your console hardware specs defeats the purpose of a console and the cost-benefit is miniscule anyways.  You're not going to see significant gains with any hard drive you choose, and you can't really replace any other hardware and expect anything out of it.  If you want to get into hardware improvements, PC gaming will take you in with open arms.  The point of console gaming is that it's optimized for a particular set of hardware and won't take advantage of anything else.

 

This makes zero sense.  Swapping the stock drive with something faster WILL show improvements.  Swapping an HDD with an SSD will have a massive improvement in load times.  It might not show AS much improvement if the software isn't designed to take advantage of SSD but there will be a noticeable difference.

Grand Master

spenser.d

Posted
Posted

This makes zero sense.  Swapping the stock drive with something faster WILL show improvements.  Swapping an HDD with an SSD will have a massive improvement in load times.  It might not show AS much improvement if the software isn't designed to take advantage of SSD but there will be a noticeable difference.

 

I haven't heard of any vast improvements from people swapping their PS3 HDDs.  I doubt most people would notice it, though I guess anyone who would actually care to replace the internal drive would be the ones to notice.  The biggest gains came from being able to install games to the drive, not from swapping drives.

Explorer

startscreennope

Posted
Posted
You can't swap the hdd out... time to cancel the pre-orders.... etc, etc, insert rant, etc...

 

Get over yourselves...

 

It's funny how people try to drown out Microsoft's awesome features with petty little things...

Having to ship your console to MS because the drive died is a "petty little thing". Of course, you also have to insult everyone else who disagrees with you. I doubt anyone cancelled their preorder over removable storage, they likely never had a preorder to begin with.

 

MS had better hope kinect and HDMI input are "awesome features" worth the $100 price hike to consumers. I don't think they will be.

 

Replacing the PS3 drive with an SSD leads to noticably faster load times. Also see http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-ssd-upgrades-boost-ps3-performance

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GotBored

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It's funny how people try to drown out Microsoft's awesome features with petty little things...

 

You do realize this is a thread about the PS4 in the Sony Console - Gaming Section.

 

Also the people who initially started the comparisons are pro-xbox clan and decided they needed to defend the Xbox One when no one was even comparing it.

So if your going to blame anyone about pointing out the Xbox One's shortcomings blame them.

Grand Master

MorganX

Posted
Posted

And that's fine, in a PC context.  Wanting to improve your console hardware specs defeats the purpose of a console and the cost-benefit is miniscule anyways.  You're not going to see significant gains with any hard drive you choose, and you can't really replace any other hardware and expect anything out of it.  If you want to get into hardware improvements, PC gaming will take you in with open arms.  The point of console gaming is that it's optimized for a particular set of hardware and won't take advantage of anything else.

This might be the first time I've agreed with you in here. Obviously we must remain within the context of the thread.

With that in mind, with XBOne having a Windows 8-ish OS, there is a remote possibility it could take advantage of SSDs, but since it's not removable ... and not really necessary vs. the cost.

The increased performance re PS3 SSD seems to be disputed. Considering the price of SSDs it doesn't seem to be wise to drop that kind of cash upgrading your console in that way.

I just put an xtra HyperX 3K 128 in a slim I just bought refurb from Sony. Not much noticeable improvement. But, it was just laying around and the PS3 is absolutely silent with it. Long reads do well though and switching from PSN and XMB seems faster. Clearly, the HD is/was not a bottleneck for the PS3 in general.

Grand Master

ahhell

Posted
Posted

The increased performance re PS3 SSD seems to be disputed. Considering the price of SSDs it doesn't seem to be wise to drop that kind of cash upgrading your console in that way.

 

A drive swap will make more of a difference with more modern hardware.  Isn't the PS3 just SATA1? 

Veteran

GotBored

Posted
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I just put an xtra HyperX 3K 128 in a slim I just bought refurb from Sony. Not much noticeable improvement. But, it was just laying around and the PS3 is absolutely silent with it. Long reads do well though and switching from PSN and XMB seems faster. Clearly, the HD is/was not a bottleneck for the PS3 in general.

 

"A bottleneck is a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or limited number of components or resources."

 

Like being limited to a certain read/write speed?

 

I'd say the HDD would be a bottleneck if load times or menu switching was noticeably improved as you mentioned.

Grand Master

MorganX

Posted
Posted

"A bottleneck is a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or limited number of components or resources."

 

Like being limited to a certain read/write speed?

 

I'd say the HDD would be a bottleneck if load times or menu switching was noticeably improved as you mentioned.

"Not much noticeable improvement."

We're talking about an SSD here. When you have to strain to find something that "seems" faster at times, it wasn't a bottleneck. But it's cooler than @##T to have one in there.

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GotBored

Posted
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Posted

"Not much noticeable improvement."

We're talking about an SSD here. When you have to strain to find something that "seems" faster at times, it wasn't a bottleneck. But it's cooler than @##T to have one in there.

 

Do I really need to explain the definition of 'bottleneck' again?

 

The HDD was clearly a bottleneck if you noticed improvements, even if those improvements were 'Not much noticeable improvements" - or "Not very noticeable improvements" (Which would be the proper way to phrase it)

 

I really don't need to justify performance improvements, little performance improvements are made all the time and over time they equate to large improvements. 

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      AdGuard Family lifetime deal now only $14.97 by Steven Parker Today's highlighted Neowin Deal comes via our Apps + Software section, where you can get a lifetime subscription and save 91% on a lifetime AdGuard Family Plan. AdGuard is a unique program that has all the necessary features for what they claim to be "the best web experience." The software combines the an advanced ad blocker, a privacy protection module, and a parental control tool—all working in one app. This software deals with annoying ads, hides your data from a multitude of trackers, protects you from malware attacks, and even lets you restrict your kids from accessing inappropriate content. Install AdGuard and see the internet as it was supposed to be: clean and safe. Get rid of annoying banners, pop-ups & video ads once and for all Hide your data from the multitude of trackers & activity analyzers that swarm the web Avoid fraudulent and phishing website and malware attacks Protect your kids online by restricting them from accessing inappropriate & adult content Good to know Family Plan Length of access: lifetime This plan is only available to new users Redemption deadline: redeem your code within 30 days of purchase Max number of devices: 9 Access options: desktop & mobile Software version: AdGuard Family Updates included A lifetime subscription of AdGuard Family Plan normally costs $169.99, but this deal can be yours for just $14.97, that's a saving of $157.02. For full terms, specifications, and license info please click the link below. Get this AdGuard Family lifetime deal for just $14.97 (was $169.99) Although priced in U.S. dollars, this deal is available for digital purchase worldwide. As an online publication, Neowin too relies on ads for operating costs and, if you use an ad blocker, we'd appreciate being whitelisted. In addition, we have an ad-free subscription for $28 a year, which is another way to show support! Support queries If you have queries or need support for any of the Neowin Deals, please use the contact form here. Neowin Deals are managed and sold by StackCommerce who represent Neowin on an affiliate basis. Why we post these deals We post these because we earn commission on each sale so as not to rely solely on advertising, which many of our readers block. It all helps toward paying staff reporters, servers and hosting costs. So for those that keep moaning and complaining, be thankful we're still online for you to even do that. Other ways to support Neowin Whitelist Neowin by not blocking our ads Create a free member account to see fewer ads Make a donation to support our day to day running costs Subscribe to Neowin - for $14 a year, or $28 a year for an ad-free experience Disclosure: Neowin benefits from revenue of each sale made through our branded deals site powered by StackCommerce.
    • Newegg offers insane combo deal on Amazon Prime Day 2026 that beats Steam Machine

      By sphbecker · Posted

      Sadly "beats Steam Machine" isn't much of a brag.
    • An oversimplified explanations of Passkeys

      By +Warwagon · Posted

      Passkeys: Think of them like a broken heart necklace. Imagine one of those heart necklaces that breaks into two matching pieces. One person keeps one half, and the other person keeps the other half. With passkeys, the website has one half, and you have the other half. If the website gets hacked and someone steals its half, that stolen piece is useless by itself. It cannot unlock your account without your matching half. This particular heart necklace is one of a kind, there is only one in existence. Your half of the necklace has to be stored somewhere. It might be stored on your phone, tablet, computer, security key, or a password manager that can sync it between all your devices. A security key is a small physical device that you keep with you, kind of like a house key, car key, or flash drive. I would not usually recommend a security key as the first option for the average person. For most people, it is easier to use their phone, computer, or a password manager that can sync passkeys between their devices. A security key is more like a spare key you keep in a safe place, just in case you lose access to your other devices or your password manager. Some security keys plug into your computer. Some plug into your phone or tablet. Some get tapped against your device. The idea is simple: a security key can hold another passkey for the same website. Think of it like creating a second one-of-a-kind heart necklace for the same account. One necklace could be paired with your password manager, while another necklace could be paired with your security key. That means the website has more than one matching half on file. One half matches the passkey in your password manager. Another half matches the passkey stored on your security key. So, if you lose access to your phone, computer, or password manager, you would still be able to log in using the passkey stored on your security key. Think of it like keeping an extra special necklace piece on a tiny keychain, stored somewhere safe. The website still has the matching half for that security key, but your half is safely stored inside the little key. A passkey does not automatically exist on every device you own. It lives wherever you save it. If your half is stored on one device, then that device is the one that has the matching piece. For example, if you create the passkey on your Windows computer and it is only saved to that computer, your iPhone does not automatically have that same half. If you create it on your iPhone and it only stays on that iPhone, your Android phone does not automatically have it either. That is where password managers come in. A password manager can act like a protected jewelry box for your passkeys. Instead of your half of the necklace being locked to only one device, the password manager can securely sync that half to your other approved devices. For example, Apple Passwords and iCloud Keychain can sync passkeys between your Apple devices. Google Password Manager can sync passkeys with your Google account. But password managers such as 1Password and Bitwarden can sync passkeys between everything, your phones, tablets and computers. Now, you might ask: “What happens if I lose access to the device that has my passkey?” That depends on where your passkey was saved and what recovery options the website gives you. If your passkey was synced through a password manager, you may be able to sign in from another device that has access to that same password manager. For example, if your passkey is saved in iCloud Keychain, Google Password Manager, 1Password, or Bitwarden, another approved device may still have access to it. If your passkey was saved only on one phone, computer, or security key, and you lose that device, then you may not have your half of the necklace anymore. In that case, you would usually need to use the website’s backup login or account recovery options. A lot of websites that support passkeys still let you fall back to your regular password. So if you lose access to your passkey, the site may still let you log in with your password, a code sent to your email, a text message, a recovery code, or some other account recovery process. That is convenient, but it is also important to understand: if the website still allows password login, then your password still matters. Passkeys are safer than passwords, but if your account still has a password as a backup, you should still use a strong, unique password and turn on two-factor authentication if the website offers it. This is why it is a good idea to have more than one safe way back into important accounts. For example, you might keep your passkey in a syncing password manager, add a second trusted device, save recovery codes somewhere safe, or set up a backup security key. A passkey is very secure, but just like a real key, you need a backup plan in case you lose access to it. Now, you might ask: “What stops a hacker from copying my half of the necklace?” That’s the important part: your half is protected. It is not something you type in, and it is not something the website gets to keep. Think of your half as being locked inside a tiny safe on your phone, computer, security key, or password manager. That safe only opens when you approve it with your fingerprint, face, PIN, or device password. When you log in, the website does not need to see your half. It only needs proof that your half matches its half. Your actual half is not handed over to the website. This is different from a password. With a password, you type the secret into the website. If you type it into a fake website, the hacker now has it. With a passkey, you are not typing your secret into the website. Your device is proving you have the matching half without giving the half away. That also helps protect you from fake websites. If someone makes a fake login page that looks like the real site, your device can tell it is not the real match. It will not use your passkey there. Now, could someone use your passkey if they stole your device, got into your password manager, or somehow unlocked the safe that holds your half? Yes, that is why your device password, PIN, fingerprint, face unlock, and password manager security still matter. But a hacker cannot just steal your passkey from the website or trick you into typing it into a fake page like they can with a password. That is why passkeys are safer than passwords. The two matching pieces have to come together, like two lovebirds who were once separated and are finally reunited.

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