PS4 Hard Drive: Replaceable / Up-gradable.

[Yogurtmaster]

USB 'Max' Transfer rate is 5Gbps and SATA 3 is 6Gbps (its not high end its the current standard).

Regardless of the USB max transfer rate the external HDD will never reach those speeds, the HDD is the bottleneck in regards to transfer rate over USD or SATA.

I've personally noticed that USB powered HDD's are the slowest, then its USB mains powered HDD's, internal HDD's, Hybrids and then SSD drives are the fastest.

 

Also the PS4 will support external hard drives like the PS3 and has two USB 3.0 ports like the Xbox One.

Yeah, I was thinking SATA 2 speeds not SATA 3. It still will be plenty fast. Should be no problems there. The fact that the Xbox One has Flash Cache for the hard drive should speed it up considerably and should be a win over the PS4 for switching.

[Tha Bloo Monkee]

Yeah, I was thinking SATA 2 speeds not SATA 3. It still will be plenty fast. Should be no problems there. The fact that the Xbox One has Flash Cache for the hard drive should speed it up considerably and should be a win over the PS4 for switching.

 

Until you want to go over 500gb on your Xbox One and you're stuck having to use a slower external HDD.

[GotBored]

Yeah, I was thinking SATA 2 speeds not SATA 3. It still will be plenty fast. Should be no problems there. The fact that the Xbox One has Flash Cache for the hard drive should speed it up considerably and should be a win over the PS4 for switching.

 

Flash cache usually refers to the RAM and according to this article its the same for the Xbox One:

 

http://www.oxm.co.uk/54362/xbox-one-specs-revealed-ram-controller-and-storage-detailed/

 

Microsoft has never said they will use hybrid hard drives (HDD with nand flash memory), so your assumptions are unfounded. 

Also even if that was true, SSD's are faster than Hybrid, so saying that Microsoft used a flash cache on their hard drives or nand memory means they would be slower than what you can put in a PS4.

 

Just for clarification Sony hasn't said they will use hybrid or SSD drives either.

 

Personally I'm not too worried about hard drive speed and am more interested in hard drive storage, but unlike you I wouldn't try to argue against something which has been known and proved for a long time and that is that SSD's offer a noticeable improvement to loading times, app switching and transfer rates over HDD or Hybrid drives (Which are HDD + SSD)

[0nyX]

Personally as a consumer i can only find positives(which other members have mentioned) in the option of upgrading or replacing the HDD/SSD myself.

I don't see any positives in the lack of that option,sry. In fact i only see negatives.

 

And as other have mentioned, the following post is false information:

 

If the HDD fails you have to ship it in for service in any case, the HDD you out in will be blank, no software, not OS not nothing.

[Yogurtmaster]

Flash cache usually refers to the RAM and according to this article its the same for the Xbox One:

 

http://www.oxm.co.uk/54362/xbox-one-specs-revealed-ram-controller-and-storage-detailed/

 

Microsoft has never said they will use hybrid hard drives (HDD with nand flash memory), so your assumptions are unfounded. 

Also even if that was true, SSD's are faster than Hybrid, so saying that Microsoft used a flash cache on their hard drives or nand memory means they would be slower than what you can put in a PS4.

 

Just for clarification Sony hasn't said they will use hybrid or SSD drives either.

 

Personally I'm not too worried about hard drive speed and am more interested in hard drive storage, but unlike you I wouldn't try to argue against something which has been known and proved for a long time and that is that SSD's offer a noticeable improvement to loading times, app switching and transfer rates over HDD or Hybrid drives (Which are HDD + SSD)

Sorry, it's not for RAM it's for the hard drive. The DDR3 RAM has 32 Megabytes of ESRAM. Each OS is running all of the time (game and app), the display planes are switched resulting in instant app switching. The Hybrid hard drive isn't about app switching, the hard drive is for loading games and anything else that is needed to be stored locally. They are trying to load the content as fast as possible so you don't have loading times. That's the point man, I am sorry if you disagree but it is what it is.

Personally as a consumer i can only find positives(which other members have mentioned) in the option of upgrading or replacing the HDD/SSD myself.

I don't see any positives in the lack of that option,sry. In fact i only see negatives.

 

And as other have mentioned, the following post is false information:

So, how can you make sure that people put it the right hardware? If you allow someone to install a hard drive that is slow and doesn't have flash cache and it ruins their experience, then that is far more of a negative thing.

Until you want to go over 500gb on your Xbox One and you're stuck having to use a slower external HDD.

Not really, we will see what kind of ports Microsoft have and what they have there soonish. USB 3.1 can go up to 10 Gigabytes per second.

We have to wait to see what they have.

A lot of people here act like Microsoft is stupid ABOUT EVERYTHING. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WRONG.

[compl3x]

I'm not sure why its hard for you guys to accept that there are more people out there that don't even consider upgrading a hard drive in a console. I agree that I like having the option, but I also know from first hand experience that I was the only one replacing my drive in that manner on the ps3 among the people I knew that had one.

 

 

I ask for actual research or data and you offer me anecdotal evidence.

 

Do people really not understand the difference?

[GotBored]

Not really, we will see what kind of ports Microsoft have and what they have there soonish. USB 3.1 can go up to 10 Gigabytes per second.

We have to wait to see what they have.

A lot of people here act like Microsoft is stupid ABOUT EVERYTHING. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WRONG.

 

I don't get what you don't understand; most people don't care about the companies. They only care about the product and what benefits each console has for them.

Why do you take every negative on the Xbox One as a personal insult? 

 

Now the Xbox One is USB 3.0 and even then hard drives cannot max out its max transfer rate so what would the point be in it upgrading to USB 3.1? The bottleneck isn't the transfer medium its the HDD's themselves and PS4 allowing you to change the Hard drive is a win for Sony, don't get bent out of shape because of it.. its not the end of the world..

[Tha Bloo Monkee]

So, how can you make sure that people put it the right hardware? If you allow someone to install a hard drive that is slow and doesn't have flash cache and it ruins their experience, then that is far more of a negative thing.

 

And using slower externals on the Xbox won't have a negative impact?  Even if we assume that the ports are fast enough (which they aren't, they're slower than internal), people can still install "a hard drive that is slow and doesn't have flash cache and it ruins their experience".  Why you think this is a PS4 only phenomenon is beyond me.

Edited August 4, 2013 by jeston
Off topic

[Yogurtmaster]

I don't get what you don't understand; most people don't care about the companies. They only care about the product and what benefits each console has for them.

Why do you take every negative on the Xbox One as a personal insult? 

 

Now the Xbox One is USB 3.0 and even then hard drives cannot max out its max transfer rate so what would the point be in it upgrading to USB 3.1? The bottleneck isn't the transfer medium its the HDD's themselves and PS4 allowing you to change the Hard drive is a win for Sony, don't get bent out of shape because of it.. its not the end of the world..

I don't take it personal dude, it's not about me. It's about total ignorance about consoles. I am saying WE DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS USB 3.0 or USB 3.1. MICROSOFT KNOWS AHEAD OF TIME WHERE TECHNOLOGY IS GOING TO BE IN 2014. Is it really that hard to understand?

I see this as a win for the Xbox One, because it uses Flash Cache it can load and save on the hard drive quicker than Sony and connecting a drive on USB is also faster than going to open up the box.

It's not the end of the world, but the problem is your FUD and not understanding how things work.

A lot of people go off on Xbox One, but they have no concept of what it is about, they live in pure ignorance. I mean that is annoying.

One of the most annoying things in life is when people spout out hate for something and they are purely ignorant with their hate.

Not knowing isn't the problem, it's not knowing but think you know and judging out of ignorance.

Just like the entire hard drive thing, the hard drive isn't changeable not because Microsoft hates choice, but because it would make the experience worse.

I mean you can change the hard drive on the Xbox 360 right? You can still add a hard drive easier with an external hard drive. I connect and go and I get a better experience because of the flash cache on the hard drive internally.

[Yogurtmaster]

And using slower externals on the Xbox won't have a negative impact?  Even if we assume that the ports are fast enough (which they aren't, they're slower than internal), people can still install "a hard drive that is slow and doesn't have flash cache and it ruins their experience".  Why you think this is a PS4 only phenomenon is beyond me.

Slower externals won't make an impact as like I said Microsoft will make sure it won't. They are not putting out a broken console.

I am saying that without the flash cache games won't load faster and it won't. Go try a PC hard drive and then get a hybrid and see which one is faster. Obvious is obvious dude.

Microsoft designed their console to be fast and switch fast and load games fast. Sony did this too, but Microsoft did this even on a deeper level.

Microsoft's console is well thought out and you guys just don't get it. I suppose you will have to wait until launch to watch someone use one. Microsoft designed the Xbox one in a much more robust way then you think and it's my personal opinion they are better than Sony at this.

Edited August 4, 2013 by jeston
Off topic

[GotBored]

I don't take it personal dude, it's not about me. It's about total ignorance about consoles. I am saying WE DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS USB 3.0 or USB 3.1. MICROSOFT KNOWS AHEAD OF TIME WHERE TECHNOLOGY IS GOING TO BE IN 2014. Is it really that hard to understand?

 

Yes because the DRM policies they wanted to enforce were very widely accepted, or the HD-DVD really hit off right? maybe its when they made Windows 8 more friendly to touchscreen devices rather than actual desktop or laptop computers.

 

We get it, according to you Microsoft are the all-seeing eye who can see the future.. When they do something wrong its obviously because they are planning something in the background that's going to be super-duper awesome.

Facts need not worry you, for you can make up facts to counter them. You also mentioned in another thread you were banned multiple times from other gaming forums because you were trolling.. errr.. making up stuff.. I mean because those multi-platform gaming forums were obviously biased against the Xbox One, same as the posters here who actually post facts with sources.. those sources are clearly biased too. Your just a regular poster who likes Halo and other xbox games according to your signature picture.. posts negatively against the PS4 in any thread.. thinks the cloud is something new and exciting which no one else has, resorts to name calling and caps locks in threads which don't share your same bias and then says everyone is picking on Microsoft about anything which the PS4 is better at than the Xbox One but not an actual Xbox fanboy right?

[MorganX]

I don't take it personal dude, it's not about me. It's about total ignorance about consoles. I am saying WE DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS USB 3.0 or USB 3.1. MICROSOFT KNOWS AHEAD OF TIME WHERE TECHNOLOGY IS GOING TO BE IN 2014. Is it really that hard to understand?

I'm pretty sure we can assume it's NOT 3.1. The spec just got finished and it will require a new chipset not in production at this time. It will surely cost more and there's no need for 10Gbs in a console external port at this time. The drives will most likely cost as much as the consoles for the first year, when they finally arrive.

But Microsoft does know how to utilize hybrid drives and I have no doubt not being able to perform user upgrades won't be an issue for the XBone:

Back in 2005, Seagate appeared to stand firm against what many believed to be the coming wave of solid-state storage technology, made feasible by more reliable flash RAM technology whose costs were plummeting and form factors shrinking. Seagate said at the time that flash wasn't exactly as reliable as it seemed on paper compared to magnetic disks, in which the company was solidly invested.

One year later, Microsoft helped bring about the formation of an industry alliance for building hybrid solid-state/hard disk drives. It did so by making the ability to support hybrid drives a requirement for notebook PC manufacturers to obtain the much-desired Vista Premium logo, one of the higher tiers of Microsoft's originally intended multi-level support program for Windows Vista. So the following year at CES 2007, standing on the podium together to represent the new market that Microsoft was effectively forcing open, were representatives from Samsung, Toshiba, and most surprisingly of all, Seagate.

[Showan]

Not at all, but when I have to battle with people that don't know anything because they live in ignorance it might make me look like a fanboy.   Slower externals won't make an impact as like I said Microsoft will make sure it won't. They are not putting out a broken console.I am saying that without the flash cache games won't load faster and it won't. Go try a PC hard drive and then get a hybrid and see which one is faster. Obvious is obvious dude.Microsoft designed their console to be fast and switch fast and load games fast. Sony did this too, but Microsoft did this even on a deeper level.Microsoft's console is well thought out and you guys just don't get it. I suppose you will have to wait until launch to watch someone use one. Microsoft designed the Xbox one in a much more robust way then you think and it's my personal opinion they are better than Sony at this.

The sad part is, people are acting like an external USB 3.0 Drive gonna be "so slow" and unusable... That's the part that makes me go lol... Whatever... Is internal hooked directly to the board faster? Well sure.. But a USB port that's on the back of the XB1 will be plenty fast. And it's funny people are even bringing this up... There are internal HDD in both consoles..

Then people want to go into the "HDD die" argument... Who cares... Blu-Ray drives die, hard drives die, processors over heat and crap out...

Both companies chose a solution they felt would be best for their respective console...

Using an external HDD that is equal to the internal drive of the console is a darn good move. Because the average gamer (and the average gamers and little Timmy's parent) out number us core core gamers, and it will be easiers for the clerk at the store to up sell an external HDD than giving them an internal HDD.... Just open the box, plug it in and the system will walk you through setup.

Or here the drive, all you need is Philips head screwdriver, open system tray, please try not to strip the screw. It may be a little tight, but once you have the HDD out,put in the new drive, make sure it's in there firmly... Can you picture people who are not like us, doing this...

But like I said... For people like us who debate on these forums, internal is nice and sweet... But external, is fast enough, easy and convenient... Now that's a true fact...

[Showan]

The sad part is, people are acting like an external USB 3.0 Drive gonna be "so slow" and unusable... That's the part that makes me go lol... Whatever... Is internal hooked directly to the board faster? Well sure.. But a USB port that's on the back of the XB1 will be plenty fast. And it's funny people are even bringing this up... There are internal HDD in both consoles..

Then people want to go into the "HDD die" argument... Who cares... Blu-Ray drives die, hard drives die, processors over heat and crap out...

Both companies chose a solution they felt would be best for their respective console...

Using an external HDD that is equal to the internal drive of the console is a darn good move. Because the average gamer (and the average gamers and little Timmy's parent) out number us core core gamers, and it will be easiers for the clerk at the store to up sell an external HDD than giving them an internal HDD.... Just open the box, plug it in and the system will walk you through setup.

Or here the drive, all you need is Philips head screwdriver, open system tray, please try not to strip the screw. It may be a little tight, but once you have the HDD out,put in the new drive, make sure it's in there firmly... Can you picture people who are not like us, doing this...

But like I said... For people like us who debate on these forums, internal is nice and sweet... But external, is fast enough, easy and convenient... Now that's a true fact...

The external option is what I love.. I can save all my games, installs, saves, etc, to an external drive.

If one day the internal drive does crap out... I lost NOTHING at all... Just plug external back in after repair, and I'm good to go.

[123456789A]

(Not sure if serious - but that's the new Mac Pro - which has virtually no ability to upgrade anything, in particular storage, without external drives. The joke was that if Apple's not allowing user-replaceable components on their flagship desktop then surely it must be the future...)

 

You seriously mean to tell me that's supposed to be a computer?

 

Now I've seen it all.

[ahhell]

Uh...the performance difference between SATA3 and USB3 is negligible.  One has the THEORETICAL max of 6Gbs and the other has 5Gbs.  You will NEVER see speeds of that.

Sure, having the option to be able to replace the drive is nice but it's hardly a make or break option.  Most consumers will not be swapping the drive just for a slight speed increase.

 

...And now back to your regularly scheduled pissing contest.

[Torolol]

consumers will swap drive for larger capacity, and aesthetic sense.

 

i found it amusing that xbox lovers despise disc yet loves the bulkier external enclosure. :D

[spenser.d]

consumers will swap drive for larger capacity, and aesthetic sense.

 

i found it amusing that xbox lovers despise disc yet loves the bulkier external enclosure. :D

 

Those are very different things.  I don't dislike discs because of the space they take up (though my current shelving situation is one where it's overflowing), I just think they're becoming an inconvenient and more so just unnecessary mode of delivering games.  And again, most consumers won't swap drives.  The thought won't even cross their minds.

[BajiRav]

consumers will swap drive for larger capacity, and aesthetic sense.

 

i found it amusing that xbox lovers despise disc yet loves the bulkier external enclosure. :D

 I think most including me just plain don't care. If 500GB turns out to be low, people can just delete old games and make space if external drive is an issue for whatever reason.

[Yogurtmaster]

The sad part is, people are acting like an external USB 3.0 Drive gonna be "so slow" and unusable... That's the part that makes me go lol... Whatever... Is internal hooked directly to the board faster? Well sure.. But a USB port that's on the back of the XB1 will be plenty fast. And it's funny people are even bringing this up... There are internal HDD in both consoles..

Then people want to go into the "HDD die" argument... Who cares... Blu-Ray drives die, hard drives die, processors over heat and crap out...

Both companies chose a solution they felt would be best for their respective console...

Using an external HDD that is equal to the internal drive of the console is a darn good move. Because the average gamer (and the average gamers and little Timmy's parent) out number us core core gamers, and it will be easiers for the clerk at the store to up sell an external HDD than giving them an internal HDD.... Just open the box, plug it in and the system will walk you through setup.

Or here the drive, all you need is Philips head screwdriver, open system tray, please try not to strip the screw. It may be a little tight, but once you have the HDD out,put in the new drive, make sure it's in there firmly... Can you picture people who are not like us, doing this...

But like I said... For people like us who debate on these forums, internal is nice and sweet... But external, is fast enough, easy and convenient... Now that's a true fact...

Finally a decent post. Thanks for your post. It's reasonable and intelligent.

[Tha Bloo Monkee]

Uh...the performance difference between SATA3 and USB3 is negligible.  One has the THEORETICAL max of 6Gbs and the other has 5Gbs.  You will NEVER see speeds of that.

Sure, having the option to be able to replace the drive is nice but it's hardly a make or break option.  Most consumers will not be swapping the drive just for a slight speed increase.

 

...And now back to your regularly scheduled ****ing contest.

 

What you mean to say is one has a "THEORETICAL" max of 6Gbs and the other has a "THEORETICAL" max of 5Gbs.  Let's not forget that USB 2.0 is still the most common standard and thus it's not inconceivable to think that many people will use USB 2.0 externals, not 3.0 and thus slowing down their experience.  Many consumers are not aware of the difference between USB 2.0 and 3.0.

[spenser.d]

What you mean to say is one has a "THEORETICAL" max of 6Gbs and the other has a "THEORETICAL" max of 5Gbs.  Let's not forget that USB 2.0 is still the most common standard and thus it's not inconceivable to think that many people will use USB 2.0 externals, not 3.0 and thus slowing down their experience.  Many consumers are not aware of the difference between USB 2.0 and 3.0.

 

So people won't know the difference between USB 2 and 3, but will be perfectly fine taking apart their console and replacing the internal drive?  The people you talk about won't be the ones caring about this issue.

[trooper11]

I ask for actual research or data and you offer me anecdotal evidence.

 

Do people really not understand the difference?

 

 

Wait a sec, are you saying that there is research data on how many people actually replaced their ps3 hard drive or are interested in the feature?

 

I'm not sure why I'm attacked for giving anecdotal evidence when this whole debate revolves around anecdotal evidence from you and everyone else. I shared my experiences, that's all, not claiming it was a universal opinion. My point was that such people exist and I feel they represent a lot of general users.

 

Excuse me for not validating the popular theme. However, if there is some kind of research that points one way or another, I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

 

USB 'Max' Transfer rate is 5Gbps and SATA 3 is 6Gbps (its not high end its the current standard).

Regardless of the USB max transfer rate the external HDD will never reach those speeds, the HDD is the bottleneck in regards to transfer rate over USD or SATA.

I've personally noticed that USB powered HDD's are the slowest, then its USB mains powered HDD's, internal HDD's, Hybrids and then SSD drives are the fastest.

 

Also the PS4 will support external hard drives like the PS3 and has two USB 3.0 ports like the Xbox One.

 

 

Does anyone have any data regarding usb 3.0 performance vs sata 3? I see a lot of you throwing around opinions, but facts would be helpful. The benchmarks I've seen seem to point to the differences being small or on existent depending on things like usb chipset, etc.

 

You mentioned external support, do you know if Sony has announced what they will allow to be stored on an external? I'd love to read links on what they have announced.

 

 

What you mean to say is one has a "THEORETICAL" max of 6Gbs and the other has a "THEORETICAL" max of 5Gbs.  Let's not forget that USB 2.0 is still the most common standard and thus it's not inconceivable to think that many people will use USB 2.0 externals, not 3.0 and thus slowing down their experience.  Many consumers are not aware of the difference between USB 2.0 and 3.0.

 

 

That's a tough argument since those same consumers don't know the difference between sata 2 or sata 3 and are probably unaware the ps3 can take a replacement drive.

[trooper11]

I really don't get why some people insist on attacking others over this topic.

 

I think I laid out the positives and negatives pretty well for both options previously.

 

Its not even about the ps4 vs X1, its just talking about internal vs external.

 

So maybe it would help if we dropped the console bs. This isn't about bashing the consoles. Here is my opinion on the differences:

 

Internal:

 

Advantage

-Allows for user to replace built in drive in case of failure (only sending the drive back)

-Zero aesthetic impact since it installs inside the system

 

 

External:

 

Advantage

-Option for much larger capacity vs internal since 3.5'' drives can be used

-Easier to migrate to another console (such as using it on a friend's console)

 

 

 

The performance question needs to be answered though (usb 3 vs sata 3 ssd and hdd), I haven't seen hard facts on it. I have also yet to see any info on exactly how we can use externals with the ps4.

[Tha Bloo Monkee]

Its not even about the ps4 vs X1, its just talking about internal vs external.

 

 

The Xbox fanboys (won't mention names - you know who you are) invaded the thread because the Xbox's internal cannot be changed and they're jealous, therefore they are attempting to justify the move by saying external is better than changing the internal.

 

How somebody could write that not being able to change a hard drive is better than being able to change it is beyond me.