PS4 Hard Drive: Replaceable / Up-gradable.

By GotBored
in PlayStation

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Grand Master

spenser.d

Posted
Posted

Do I really need to explain the definition of 'bottleneck' again?

 

The HDD was clearly a bottleneck if you noticed improvements, even if those improvements were 'Not much noticeable improvements" - or "Not very noticeable improvements" (Which would be the proper way to phrase it)

 

I really don't need to justify performance improvements, little performance improvements are made all the time and over time they equate to large improvements. 

 

Sure, but again I would say that if you're looking to make improvements over time to the hardware, you really should be PC gaming.  Consoles aren't meant for that.  It defeats the entire point of them.

Grand Master

HawkMan

Posted
Posted

Having to ship your console to MS because the drive died is a "petty little thing". Of course, you also have to insult everyone else who disagrees with you. I doubt anyone cancelled their preorder over removable storage, they likely never had a preorder to begin with.

MS had better hope kinect and HDMI input are "awesome features" worth the $100 price hike to consumers. I don't think they will be.

Replacing the PS3 drive with an SSD leads to noticably faster load times. Also see http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-ssd-upgrades-boost-ps3-performance

If the HDD fails you have to ship it in for service in any case, the HDD you out in will be blank, no software, not OS not nothing.

Grand Master

MorganX

Posted
Posted

Do I really need to explain the definition of 'bottleneck' again?

 

The HDD was clearly a bottleneck if you noticed improvements, even if those improvements were 'Not much noticeable improvements" - or "Not very noticeable improvements" (Which would be the proper way to phrase it)

 

I really don't need to justify performance improvements, little performance improvements are made all the time and over time they equate to large improvements.

You're not going to win except in your own mind. I have one, with an SSD, and I say the HD is not a bottleneck to the negligible, minor, and probably placebo, if nothing else, absolutely minimal improvements you might see if you look hard enough. But then again, if you stare at three unequal lines on a piece of paper long enough, you may come out of it thinking they are in fact equal.

I'm more inclined to concluded the OS, XMB, and R/W are optimized and maybe you notice minor improvements based on the sheer speed of putting in an SSD, maybe, if you look hard enough. Clearly, it's SATA interface is more of a bottleneck than the HD. It is of practically no meaningful performance value, IMO, to put an SSD in a PS3 unless you just happen to have one lying around.

I promise you if you replace a HDD in a PC, in which a physical HD is a bottleneck, you won't need a microscope to try and find a minute improvement, if you hold it just right.

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

Grand Master

dead.cell

Posted
Posted

Here's a great vid I found on SSD performance on a PS3. This guy does a pretty good job in his measurements and his explanations of everything, between install times, load times, and taking into consideration all the hindrances such as the Bluray drive or how the game opts to load data.

 

Grand Master

trooper11

Posted
Posted

 

Based on what? Is there any research or figures in this area? Or is this just more of "If MS doesn't do it they must have a very good reason why" kind of stuff?

 

Frankly, when it comes to giving consumers what they want MS isn't exactly winning any awards.

 

 

I'm not sure why its hard for you guys to accept that there are more people out there that don't even consider upgrading a hard drive in a console. I agree that I like having the option, but I also know from first hand experience that I was the only one replacing my drive in that manner on the ps3 among the people I knew that had one.

 

Its just like a pc. Lots of people own them, but aren't interested in replacing any parts themselves.

 

Its funny that MS is seen as so anti consumer and Sony is so pro consumer. My how things change from year to year, etc.

 

To me, I don't see MS doing this on purpose as in doing it to spite those of us that would like the option. They must have weighed the value versus the 'cost' of implementing it and found it lacking.

Grand Master

trooper11

Posted
Posted

PS3/PS4 Replacable Hard Drive.......

Xbox One has none of those advantages, and a whole bunch of negatives........

 

 

I have to disagree on a few of those points. I don't thinks its so one sided.  Here is how I would break it down:

 

PS4:

 

Negatives:

1. 2.5" form factor limits capacity vs larger external models

 

Positives:

1. Can replace the internal drive without voiding warranty to add space or performance

2. Can send just the hard drive back to Sony in case of a failure. Sony doesn't offer data recovery.

3. Setting up a new hard drive is relatively simple with a flash drive

 

X1:

 

Negatives:

1. Hard drive not replaceable

2. Have to send whole console back to replace a failed drive. MS doesn't offer data recovery.

3. Using an external means another device to deal with (even if its in a 2.5" enclosure)

 

Positives:

1. Option to use any external hard drive to act as internal drive (i.e. not proprietary)

 -External drives can be bought for prices in line with bare drives so buying a bare drive for a ps4 or an external for the X1 isn't that different

 -External drives are not limited to the 2.5" form factor so you have much higher capacities to choose from

 -An external using USB 3.0 will not lose performance like 2.0, allowing even an ssd to be used and see a performance boost to the system

2. External is easy to setup, just plug in and step through the process. 

 

Your points about how much MS might charge for out of warranty repairs is speculation at best. Both Sony and MS charge to repair a console out of warranty. I kind of doubt MS would charge you as much to replace an internal hard drive out of warranty as their proprietary hard drive enclosures cost at retail. You comparing retail accessory pricing to repair pricing.

 

Your right about the cloud storage though. You cant play games by streaming.

 

The reason MS added such robust external storage support is thanks to the Win 8 core. The 360 was held back by its OS (no NTFS support) and USB 2.0 ports, so using externals was a pain. Now the support is there by default and won't be locked to a proprietary form.

 

 

I have been trying to find info regarding external support on the ps4. Does anyone know if it has full support for using one as if it was an internal drive (i.e. store everything) like the X1. I never tried that with my ps3, so I don't know if it could do that. If the ps4 matches the external options of the X1, than its not a difference at all.

Grand Master

Showan

Posted
Posted

Having to ship your console to MS because the drive died is a "petty little thing". Of course, you also have to insult everyone else who disagrees with you. I doubt anyone cancelled their preorder over removable storage, they likely never had a preorder to begin with.

 

MS had better hope kinect and HDMI input are "awesome features" worth the $100 price hike to consumers. I don't think they will be.

 

Replacing the PS3 drive with an SSD leads to noticably faster load times. Also see http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-can-ssd-upgrades-boost-ps3-performance

Im not trying to insult anyone... But complaining over a HDD swap is petty. It really is, in the grand scheme of the console. What if their using business class Hard drives (I know I'm stretching it here, but hey)..

Awesome Features:

Cloud is an awesome feature (clown it now, but as bandwidth improves the world over.. It will show)

Xbox Live just evolved into a new kind of beast

Snap

Tv,tv,tv, sports, sports,sports, Skype, party chat, voice chat, jump between instances of games and play a game while another game queues up, jump to my match when it's ready. And never changing the channel on the tv.

Coming home from long day of work and while doing things "Xbox on", Xbox play Forward Unto Dawn.. Oh my friend is skipping me, Xbox answer call... All while making sure my kids are taken care of

Yep that alone is worth the $100... and interactive original content as well... Yep... Definitely worth it...

Grand Master

Showan

Posted
Posted

I suggest we try to keep this on the topic of hard drives. You guys insisting on blowing this up into another general console discussion is just cluttering up the thread.

 

Anyone have info on how externals are treated on the ps4?

Sony has not given any information to external HDD and how they function wit ps4...

Mentor

Yogurtmaster

Posted
Posted

PS3/PS4 Replacable Hard Drive:

+You can use a larger/faster drive than the stock drive for more room and/or better performance.

+Doesn't void the warranty.

+You don't have to send the console in to Sony if your HD fails. You can buy a new HD and install the OS on it, then restore your files from a backup.

+Internal is faster than external, esp. with hybrid or SSD drives.

+Third party drives are much cheaper than MS's proprietary ones.

+PS4 also supports external storage devices.

Xbox One has none of those advantages, and a whole bunch of negatives:

-External drive enclosures are an extra expense.

-You have to send your console in to MS if the non-replacable drive fails. And no, MS isn't going to recover the files off the dead drive for you, that kind of diagnostic data recovery service is expensive.

-You can't install or run games from "the cloud", that's not what the """unlimited storage""" is for.

-MS will probably take you for a ride to replace the internal HD, given how expensive 360 drives are. That's on top of the shipping costs.

As usual the PS4 comes out ahead by far in the all important storage category.

I remember reading a while ago that the drive is non-replacable because making it replacable would cause airflow/heating issues, and the X1 was ordered to be near silent. The X1 being quieter than the PS4 might be one of the few advantages it has, although we don't know the noise levels of PS4 yet.

By the way, we don't know if either drive is a hybrid w/ flash cache. Obviously if one of them was a hybrid and one wasn't, the hybrid would have a speed advantage.

Actually I put a spare 128GB SSD into my PS3 and save game load times were noticably faster. I expect a real benefit for putting an SSD in PS4 as well.

This is not a big deal as you are making it out to be. Game Saves are saved in the cloud.

Once you purchase digital downloads and you delete them off your hard drive you can download them again.

Microsoft is using the hard drive for more than Sony is using it to gain speed, thus the HDD hybrid Flash drive.

This will speed up the experience you get with the Xbox One...

*********************************************************************************************

If you want to cry about something, lets cry about not having the ability to turn off the light on the PS4 controller.

1) The light is bright reflecting off of your TV and putting black masking tape over your new controller is non-sense.

2) It takes up battery power of the controller for no good reason (there is no added purpose for it to be there sucking up battery power).

3) It's really annoying to have that on all of the time

Grand Master

Tha Bloo Monkee

Posted
Posted

Imagine slapping a nice SSD in that baby!!

Hopefully they'll have native SSD support.  The PS3 could use SSDs but it couldn't take full advantage due to lack of TRIM and limited Sata1 speeds.  From my research it was still MUCH faster than using a traditional hard drive.

 

Who wants to use an external?  lol, that's lame.  Internal FTW.

Grand Master

Marshall Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted

I suggest we try to keep this on the topic of hard drives. You guys insisting on blowing this up into another general console discussion is just cluttering up the thread.

 

Anyone have info on how externals are treated on the ps4?

 

Nicely put!

 

Thread Cleaned

Mentor

Yogurtmaster

Posted
Posted

Imagine slapping a nice SSD in that baby!!

Hopefully they'll have native SSD support.  The PS3 could use SSDs but it couldn't take full advantage due to lack of TRIM and limited Sata1 speeds.  From my research it was still MUCH faster than using a traditional hard drive.

 

Who wants to use an external?  lol, that's lame.  Internal FTW.

An SSD is nice, very nice. However, they are too expensive for what size you get. The best bet is to use a hybrid of both technologies and that is what Microsoft is apparently doing.

That is why they won't let you change out the hard drive like you were able to do with the 360.

Because if you put a normal HDD in there things will slow down and you will have a crappy experience.

Sony isn't using a hybrid drive so you can put whatever drive you want inside. For me, I will choose

the Flash hybrid HDD, because you get some of the performance of an SSD with the storage of an HDD.

If you need more space, just add in a USB 3.0 external drive and call it a day. All of the saves are stored on a "Server" and not on the HDD.

Games are stored on your HDD and that is about it.

Mentor

Yogurtmaster

Posted
Posted

I did a quick search and couldn't find anything definitive online, surely you have a souce for that claim.

04:51 - 05:13 "Flash Cache"

It's in this video. "Listen for the words "Flash Cache". Beyond 3D which is a 3D chip and specification web forum pointed it out.

Flash Cache is used with the Hard Drive to keep the system functioning quickly.

Experienced

strotee

Posted
Posted

Sorry, that I don't have where they said this specifically, but it is in there.

It's in this video. "Listen for the words "Flash Cache". Beyond 3D which is a 3D chip and specification web forum pointed it out.

Fair enough, I'll assume it's in there. I suppose MS bet on these hybrid drives adding a significant boost to performance compared to platter drives. I can't wait to see comparisons between platter/hybrid/SSD drives in a console. As a future PS4 owner, I'll add the drive that best balances price, size & performance.

  • MikeChipshop
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Yogurtmaster

Posted
Posted

Fair enough, I'll assume it's in there. I suppose MS bet on these hybrid drives adding a significant boost to performance compared to platter drives. I can't wait to see comparisons between platter/hybrid/SSD drives in a console. As a future PS4 owner, I'll add the drive that best balances price, size & performance.

By the way, I found where it was in the video and updated my post. If you look at 04:51 - 05:13 "Flash Cache" then you can see what I mean. This is by default for everyone. What they are trying to do is make it so that you get the quickest result of playing a game with very little to no load times.

So, one of the biggest advantages of a hybrid is that you have the space of a 500GB hard drive, but it performs more closely to an SSD. This allows them to have something cheaper in the box, with near performance of an SSD which can improve their console quite a bit. It's a good trade off.

You guys have to understand that the Xbox one is better designed than you think, I would go so far to think that the Xbox One is designed better than the PS4. Sure, the GPU might be better on paper, but the Xbox One is a really innovative design of a console. It's pretty well thought out.

Things like not being able to change the hard drive are done on purpose as you might imagine, if you put a regular hard drive in there you are going to kill your performance.

Grand Master

trooper11

Posted
Posted

An SSD is a neat option for these consoles, but I have a hard time justifying the cost for such a small capacity. I'd rather have a 1tb in my ps4 than a 120gb ssd, even with the performance advantage.

 

I already own a 2tb usb 3.0 external that I could use with either console, so I hope Sony offers the same support as MS. If not, I'll look at buying a new hard drive for the ps4 and use my external just on the X1.

Mentor

Yogurtmaster

Posted
Posted

at least PS4 owner who replace the internal HDD with 1TB drive, will have to wait longer than XBox One owner before they have to resort to external ..

Well, it's a trade off. Microsoft will have a lot of performance with that and everyone will have access to that performance out of the box.

Microsoft's solution is much more thought out.

USB 3.0, will have at the very least almost 5 Gigabits of performance. A high end SATA would have 3 Gigabits, so you are still fine with loading it off of a USB 3.0 drive as well.

Experienced

blerk

Posted
Posted

I'm not following your post. You say the future of storage is external, but you post a picture of a wastebasket. Are you saying we would throw things away instead of upgrading them?

 

(Not sure if serious - but that's the new Mac Pro - which has virtually no ability to upgrade anything, in particular storage, without external drives. The joke was that if Apple's not allowing user-replaceable components on their flagship desktop then surely it must be the future...)

Veteran

GotBored

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Well, it's a trade off. Microsoft will have a lot of performance with that and everyone will have access to that performance out of the box.

Microsoft's solution is much more thought out.

USB 3.0, will have at the very least almost 5 Gigabits of performance. A high end SATA would have 3 Gigabits, so you are still fine with loading it off of a USB 3.0 drive as well.

 

USB 'Max' Transfer rate is 5Gbps and SATA 3 is 6Gbps (its not high end its the current standard).

Regardless of the USB max transfer rate the external HDD will never reach those speeds, the HDD is the bottleneck in regards to transfer rate over USD or SATA.

I've personally noticed that USB powered HDD's are the slowest, then its USB mains powered HDD's, internal HDD's, Hybrids and then SSD drives are the fastest.

 

Also the PS4 will support external hard drives like the PS3 and has two USB 3.0 ports like the Xbox One.

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      Hands-on with BOOX Tappy: cute little reading accessory by Taras Buria Page turners are quite popular accessories for e-readers, as they enable a hands-free reading experience, which is particularly useful with large readers featuring 10-inch or larger displays. The BOOX Tappy is a new accessory that was introduced earlier this year, and we took this cute-looking thingy for a spin. The Tappy comes in a small box, with two additional buttons and a user manual. The device is made of glossy green plastic and resembles old appliances from the nuclear age. Material quality is great, and each part feels quite premium. Plastic is high-quality, the switch is nice to flick, and the buttons are not rattly. At the bottom, four rubberized feet prevent slipping when used on a desk. Unfortunately, there are no color options, and the Tappy is only available in green. It looks good, but I wish there were other options as well. There are two removable buttons, an on/off switch, and an LED indicator that displays connection mode, charging status, and more. The buttons resemble those of an old typewriter, with quite a long travel distance and a pleasant clack. In the box, you have four buttons with different icons: heart, coffee, O, and X. You can easily swap buttons by simply pulling them upwards. Tip: buttons come with plastic covers, but they are quite tricky to remove. It is hard to call the Tappy the most ergonomic remote control, but after fiddling with it for a few hours, I managed to find a comfortable hand position. Attaching a lanyard to it can make it more comfortable in use without the fear of dropping it, but unfortunately, the Tappy does not come with one. The Tappy connects via Bluetooth 5.2, and it works in three modes, which you can toggle by pressing and holding both buttons for about five seconds: Reading Mode Multimedia Mode Browsing Mode Next / Previous page Next / Previous Track Up / Down scroll If you pair the Tappy with a BOOX device (I tested it with the BOOX Go 10.5 Gen 2 Lumi), you will get small pop-ups indicating the current mode. Plus, you can customize what each button does when pressed one time, two times, or held for a few seconds. The list of available actions and features you can use is massive, and I like that BOOX lets you map stuff like brightness adjustment, app launching, screenshot-taking, screen rotating, navigation, and more. Note, however, that while you can use the Tappy with other readers, its customization is only available on BOOX devices running firmware version 4.2 and newer. I could not connect the Tappy to my computer (Windows 11 claims a driver error when I try), but it worked with the DuRoBo Krono that I recently reviewed. My Kindle Paperwhite refused to work with the Tappy, though, just like my iPhone. The Tappy uses a non-removable Li-Ion battery, which can be recharged with a Type-C cable. BOOX rates the remote for "weeks of use," and I can say that it indeed has very good battery life. While there are no battery indicators on the remote, you can see the current level in the status bar or in Input settings in the BOOX firmware. After a few days of active use, mine still shows about 95%. Overall, the Tappy left a nice impression. It is well-made, and the integration with BOOX devices is great. I also like that BOOX decided to have some fun with its design and swappable buttons. I cannot say I am a fan of its odd shape, though. Still, I managed to find a way to use it comfortably. And when not in use, it just looks neat sitting on the table doing nothing or serving you as a small clacky fidget. Buy BOOX Tappy - $29.99 on Amazon US As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
    • AdGuard Family lifetime deal now only $14.97

      By News Staff · Posted

      AdGuard Family lifetime deal now only $14.97 by Steven Parker Today's highlighted Neowin Deal comes via our Apps + Software section, where you can get a lifetime subscription and save 91% on a lifetime AdGuard Family Plan. AdGuard is a unique program that has all the necessary features for what they claim to be "the best web experience." The software combines the an advanced ad blocker, a privacy protection module, and a parental control tool—all working in one app. This software deals with annoying ads, hides your data from a multitude of trackers, protects you from malware attacks, and even lets you restrict your kids from accessing inappropriate content. Install AdGuard and see the internet as it was supposed to be: clean and safe. Get rid of annoying banners, pop-ups & video ads once and for all Hide your data from the multitude of trackers & activity analyzers that swarm the web Avoid fraudulent and phishing website and malware attacks Protect your kids online by restricting them from accessing inappropriate & adult content Good to know Family Plan Length of access: lifetime This plan is only available to new users Redemption deadline: redeem your code within 30 days of purchase Max number of devices: 9 Access options: desktop & mobile Software version: AdGuard Family Updates included A lifetime subscription of AdGuard Family Plan normally costs $169.99, but this deal can be yours for just $14.97, that's a saving of $157.02. For full terms, specifications, and license info please click the link below. Get this AdGuard Family lifetime deal for just $14.97 (was $169.99) Although priced in U.S. dollars, this deal is available for digital purchase worldwide. As an online publication, Neowin too relies on ads for operating costs and, if you use an ad blocker, we'd appreciate being whitelisted. In addition, we have an ad-free subscription for $28 a year, which is another way to show support! Support queries If you have queries or need support for any of the Neowin Deals, please use the contact form here. Neowin Deals are managed and sold by StackCommerce who represent Neowin on an affiliate basis. Why we post these deals We post these because we earn commission on each sale so as not to rely solely on advertising, which many of our readers block. It all helps toward paying staff reporters, servers and hosting costs. So for those that keep moaning and complaining, be thankful we're still online for you to even do that. Other ways to support Neowin Whitelist Neowin by not blocking our ads Create a free member account to see fewer ads Make a donation to support our day to day running costs Subscribe to Neowin - for $14 a year, or $28 a year for an ad-free experience Disclosure: Neowin benefits from revenue of each sale made through our branded deals site powered by StackCommerce.
    • Newegg offers insane combo deal on Amazon Prime Day 2026 that beats Steam Machine

      By sphbecker · Posted

      Sadly "beats Steam Machine" isn't much of a brag.

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