Microsoft's Penello: No way is Xbox One giving up 30% power advantage t

[giantpotato]

This entire argument over the xbox one or ps4 being faster is flawed.

It's been flawed for the last 5 years where PC's, who have always and continue to have faster hardware get crappy ports the majority of the time with nothing added or changed to take advantage of the increase in speed the PC has.

Do you really think developers are going to go and add a bit more fluff to the PS4 version of their games? nah, they'll create a game that works on the lowest hardware and port it over. So we'll be getting Xbox one created games and PS4 will get crappy ports with that 30% boost making up for the 'it's good enough' lack-lustre support we, PC, gamers have seen for a long time.

 

 

So what you're implying is no multi-platform developers are going to use Smartglass, Kinect, or the cloud, because those are all xbox-specific features and they need to program for the "lowest hardware" and port it over :/

 

That's not how development works. Tons of games have better graphics on PC.

[Athernar]

That's my bad, it is a fork of FreeBSD, my memory failed me. An opensource modified OS is not going to outperform an OS built specifically for that platform, logic should tell you that.

 

How is DirectX for a fixed platform being 100% optimised marketing guff? Seriously? Its one of the main reasons why this console has been producing 1080p60fps.

 

First off, 100% optimisation is effectively impossible - not to mention that graphics APIs such as DirectX and OpenGL themselves are by very nature abstraction. Microsoft would have to completely re-write DirectX from scratch with hand-written assembly to even get close to "100%". And that is likely a minimal reward vs the investment required.

 

As to your comments on the FreeBSD fork, you don't know the details of what either party has done to their respective OSes, so you are in no position to comment either way. Especially when you didn't know what OS was being used.

[Yogurtmaster]

Want graphics performance? Use a PC.

 

I keep seeing this, but it never makes sense too me.

 

I have a new computer that I put together from 2012.  I have an Nvidia 670 GPU with 2 Gigs of ram.

It cost me $400.   My entire computer was pretty pricy when I put it together, well over $1400 (no monitor, keyboard, or mouse purchased).

 

I didn't buy my computer to play games, that is the last thing I wanted to do, but

I built it so that I could have that option.

 

I can play any game out there and this will play every game for the next 5-6 years without trouble. 

 

The reason for this is that a lot of advancement has stalled on the PC and it's just not so cost effective anymore to build out for the best when very few people actually have the best.

 

So, this entire notion that PC's are better than this next generation are true, but only from the point that I actually use all of that power and I didn't include the variable like "Cloud compute" in this.

99.9% of all games for PC's are not going to use anywhere near that power.  Most games are programmed for D3D 9 and not even D3D 11 other than some minority of games or demos.

 

Now, that is out of the way, I do believe that you could backport to the PC from the consoles and the PC's can take advantage of the technology that way.

 

That is just my two cents....

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

https://twitter.com/adrianchm

 

Follow up

 

I think Adrian should jump into the conversation. He does it all the time in his blogs. 

 

Here I am. So...

 

1. I am not doing a damage control, but I do want to clarify one thing. But first, yes, devs I know -- and as someone has shown it before in this thread, some other devs already talked about it too -- claim that there's 50% speed difference WHEN DEVELOPING in cross-gen/next-gen PS4/XO games. So there we are, I said it and I stand by it. Notice: WHEN DEVELOPING. It'll become clear in a second.

 

2. Will this change in the future? WIll devs discover some tricks to narrow the gap? Will stuff like XO cloud computing help? Hell if I know. Uhm, maybe? I know that devs -- well, most of them -- will do whatever they can do get you the best games possible. You're going to see a lot of multiplatform games this next gen, just as you've seen them in this gen, so it's in studios' best interest that there's no clear advantage in one version over the other.

 

3. Does it mean studios will cripple PS4 versions to match XO ones? Not really, do not underestimate the devs. Even if this happens, you will not know that and that's okay. You've never seen most games in their most powerful form anyway (when we work on them on our ninja dev PCs in 1080p 120fps with all the antialiasings and stuff turned on for ###### and giggles). But most of the time devs have a target and they meet this target. If it's a multiplatform game, it's designed with this in mind from the start. So maybe it's not maxing out one console while going 100% on the other. Maybe it's 100% on both, but they take extra time for super-extra optimizations on the weaker hardware to make sure things look the same as on the more powerful platform. Etc. etc.

 

4. So what is that "one thing" I want to clarify, that some people may consider "damage control", but really is just an explanation. Someone mentioned Titanfall, which looks money and enjoys a great hype. Exactly. A great dev will make a great game no matter what's the hardware. Current gen CoDs looks great and it's 60 fps, on both platforms (well, and PC :). To most devs that is just impossible to achieve. And yet...

 

Think about it this way. X360 is faster than PS3. Not just easier to program on, it's faster overall (although PS is faster/better in SOME areas). And yet no exclusive on X360 looks like The Last of Us. Halo 4 looks great. Gears blew my mind in 2006. And still, the best looking AAA game of this generation belongs to the supposedly weaker platform.

 

So if you think that the war is over because PS4 is 50% faster TODAY, then you're delusional. This is far from over, and will probably never be over, at least not this upcoming gen.

 

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80542977&postcount=399

 

[hardway]

 

https://twitter.com/adrianchm

 

Follow up

 

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80542977&postcount=399

 

So, Sony pays his mortgage and he's out there shilling for Sony? NO WAY!!!!! Great source.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

So, Sony pays his mortgage and he's out there shilling for Sony? NO WAY!!!!! Great source.

 

More Xbox aligned than Playstation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Can_Fly

[blerk]

These threads are always so epic.. especially on neogaf. 

 

But posts like Adrian's twitter posted above by Audioboxer are completely useless. Everyone can claim that AAA devs they've talked to say that PS4>>>XB1 or vice versa. And the thing with all the numbers that these devs supposedly claim is that they're all so completely and utterly different that it's impossible to figure out which one is true. And the truth most probably is that it's impossible to say that (for example) "PS4 is 50% better than XB1" because their architectures are not the same - so putting supposedly concrete numbers out at this stage is nothing more than random guess by developers.

 

And then you've go those people who claim that the current specs are all lies and that neither PS4 nor XB1 have fully revealed what they're doing. (If you want a mildly entertaining, somewhat incoherent, and reasonably thought-provoking/interesting example of an XB1 "truther" blog... here you go. Decide for yourself  :shifty: )

[hardway]

My bad, I had him confused with another developer.

[1WayJonny]

GDDR is different then DDR3, noticed the "G". I am not sure why people keep comparing it, while GDDR is faster it also has latency in areas that DDR does not.

 

This topic very searchable by Google.

 

 

[CygnusOrion]

This only matters to hard-core gamers. The rest of the public will decide based on price, media features, Kinect and Microsoft's reputation.

[vcfan]

More Xbox aligned than Playstation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Can_Fly

 

On August 13, 2012, Epic Games announced that it has fully acquired People Can Fly.^[7] In another announcement on the same day, People Can Fly co-owner and creative director Adrian Chmielarz announced his departure from the company.

[BajiRav]

https://twitter.com/adrianchm

 

Follow up

 

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80542977&postcount=399

 

1440p / 120Hz PS4 games confirmed :woot:

[NeoWind]

it's about directX vs OpenGL! not hardware anymore when both of the console use very similar architecture. In fact, there is a lot of other area that play an important role to the make the game look better and is not just about which console is more powerful because it doesn't work that way anymore. 

 

The last generation didn't see any significant graphic different in both console is because the cell didn't get much optimize but this generation is differ and we can only hope both console get fair optimization to get a verdict which console perform better. A lot of things really do make a different about how the game will perform regardless of the hardware which is clouded by majority of gamer that thinking PS4 will be the absolute beast. i can only hope xbox one and ps4 won't have any significant disparity in fps and resolution to create dilemma for people to choose and early adopter to regret their decision. This is what bother me and a lot of people. 

[chrisj1968]

I feel the need to agree with Lord Method man -> Xbox gamers Playstation gamers

[0nyX]

Microsoft is making lot of fuss and has changed almost every decision made about X1.

That to me shows confusion.

[spaceelf]

I feel the need to agree with Lord Method man -> Xbox gamers Playstation gamers

Some of them feel the need to fight about stupid things, but I've always been a wait and see type.  I do think the PS4 might have a power advantage, but if it's less customized than the X1 it'll be hard to quantify it.  Devs quoting power advantages seem pretty full of it at the moment...I doubt they've got optimized code running on both boxes and all that fun stuff.

 

From what I can tell there's a lot of offloading on the X1 meaning the PS4s CPU might take more of a hit, in which case it'd have to use up the extra GPU capabilities to make up for it, but there's no way to tell before the hardwares out and the games are out and all that fun stuff.

[Vandalsquad]

1440p / 120Hz PS4 games confirmed :woot:

 

This, lets just wait and see in November once the muliplats are out this 50% difference in graphics.  :laugh:

[spaceelf]

The PS4 is the more powerful system, even Penello confirms it.

More powerful in some ways, less in others.  It's like arguing about whether two arms and two legs is better than two legs and two arms.  Heh.

[GotBored]

More powerful in some ways, less in others.  It's like arguing about whether two arms and two legs is better than two legs and two arms.  Heh.

 

No it isn't, its like arguing if bigger biceps is better than bigger triceps. 

 

PS4 advantage: Better system graphics specs.

 

Xbox One advantage: Better audio card?

[spaceelf]

No it isn't, its like arguing if bigger biceps is better than bigger triceps. 

 

PS4 advantage: Better system graphics specs.

 

Xbox One advantage: Better audio card?

X1: Better audio chip, lower latency, and extra processors for certain ops.

 

These CPUs aren't extremely powerful, so taking some of the load off them might make a bigger difference than you'd think.  We'll have to see.

[blerk]

More powerful in some ways, less in others.  It's like arguing about whether two arms and two legs is better than two legs and two arms.  Heh.

Remember: four legs good, two legs better!

 

 

 

(completely off topic but I couldn't resist)

[GotBored]

X1: Better audio chip, lower latency, and extra processors for certain ops.

 

These CPUs aren't extremely powerful, so taking some of the load off them might make a bigger difference than you'd think.  We'll have to see.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm most likely going to to get the Xbox One only now cause I really only want a console for kinect-type features.

 

But that doesn't mean I have to make up silly reasons to try make the Xbox One seem comparable in terms of raw system performance. 

[JonnyLH]

First off, 100% optimisation is effectively impossible - not to mention that graphics APIs such as DirectX and OpenGL themselves are by very nature abstraction. Microsoft would have to completely re-write DirectX from scratch with hand-written assembly to even get close to "100%". And that is likely a minimal reward vs the investment required.

 

As to your comments on the FreeBSD fork, you don't know the details of what either party has done to their respective OSes, so you are in no position to comment either way. Especially when you didn't know what OS was being used.

"Since E3, we've dropped in what we internally call our mono driver," he said. "It's our graphics driver that really is 100% optimised for the XboxOne hardware. You start with the base DirectX driver, and then you take out all parts that don't look like Xbox One and you add in everything that really optimises that experience. Almost all of our content partners have really picked it up now, and I think it's made a really nice improvement."

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2013/aug/02/xbox-one-gpu-speed-upgraded

So that means exactly what you've said. MS have stripped down and re-wrote portions of DirectX which sits perfectly with how the architecture on that box works. Hows that hard to understand?

 

No logic tells you that an OS modified for a special purpose is never going to be as efficient as an OS built for that purpose.

[JonnyLH]

X1: Better audio chip, lower latency, and extra processors for certain ops.

 

These CPUs aren't extremely powerful, so taking some of the load off them might make a bigger difference than you'd think.  We'll have to see.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm most likely going to to get the Xbox One only now cause I really only want a console for kinect-type features.

 

But that doesn't mean I have to make up silly reasons to try make the Xbox One seem comparable in terms of raw system performance. 

Considering most games on the 360 used to dedicate one of the PowerPC cores just to audio, its a very sensible and fair statement.

[blerk]

"Since E3, we've dropped in what we internally call our mono driver," he said. "It's our graphics driver that really is 100% optimised for the XboxOne hardware. You start with the base DirectX driver, and then you take out all parts that don't look like Xbox One and you add in everything that really optimises that experience. Almost all of our content partners have really picked it up now, and I think it's made a really nice improvement."

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2013/aug/02/xbox-one-gpu-speed-upgraded

So that means exactly what you've said. MS have stripped down and re-wrote portions of DirectX which sits perfectly with how the architecture on that box works. Hows that hard to understand?

 

No logic tells you that an OS modified for a special purpose is never going to be as efficient as an OS built for that purpose.

 

Hmmm - if they have a mono driver, I wonder if there's a stereo  :D ?

 

But on the point of the PS4 OS - do you have any decent links pointing to how it works/is designed? I'm curious to read about it, because that's one of the things about the PS4 I've heard less about so far.