us US: Ceremonies For Dead Soldiers Faked

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

Summary: The ceremonies for dead US soldiers are being faked using planes that cannot even fly

 

 

Source: The David Pakman Show

 

It's sad?but not at all surprising?that the ceremonies for returning dead soldiers are being faked in what can only be considered propaganda. It should be noted that the US government previously had a ban on coverage of the return of dead soldiers and has had an active role in shaping people's perception of war.

[mudslag 2,437]

Do you have the actual NBC report instead of some guys video blog post? 

[Ironman273 1,094]

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20889368-pentagon-unit-held-phony-ceremonies-for-mias-using-planes-that-cant-fly

[mudslag 2,437]

^ thanks

[mudslag 2,437]

So basically it's a symbolic ceremony.

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

Do you have the actual NBC report instead of some guys video blog post? 

It's not "some guy", it's David Pakman and his show is broadcast on over 155 television and radio stations, in addition to YouTube.

[McKay 3,694]

The USA treats their armed forces and veterans a million times better than we do in the UK. They clear the roads when they have convoys of dead troops coming through, what happens here? They get stuck in traffic. We're advised to take our uniforms off and hide all military passes from our cars at pretty much every base because the locals usually enjoy nothing more than to beat up and mug military personnel, smash their cars up etc. 

 

Every time I go to the USA I get thanked, handshakes. Huge discounts Etc

 

I know this article shows Canada but they do the same in the USA. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-559303/Pictures-shame-reveal-shabby-way-Britain-treats-fallen-heroes.html

[mudslag 2,437]

It's not "some guy", it's David Pakman and his show is broadcast on over 155 television and radio stations, in addition to YouTube.

 

 

Never heard of him, still looks like some low production video blog even cheesier version of the young turks. They also toy with the idea is a propaganda display and at the same time leave the door open to being a symbolic ceremony to cover their bases. I understand you like to look down on the US when ever you get the chance but I see this being a symbolic ceremony instead of your propaganda view.

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

Never heard of him, still looks like some low production video blog even cheesier version of the young turks. They also toy with the idea is a propaganda display and at the same time leave the door open to being a symbolic ceremony to cover their bases. I understand you like to look down on the US when ever you get the chance but I see this being a symbolic ceremony instead of your propaganda view.

Considering the history of censorship surrounding the return of dead soldiers in the US it is hard to consider it anything but propaganda. Typically ceremonies don't try to pass themselves off as something they're not, they are simply designed to respect the occasion.

 

The USA treats their armed forces and veterans a million times better than we do in the UK. They clear the roads when they have convoys of dead troops coming through, what happens here? They get stuck in traffic. We're advised to take our uniforms off and hide all military passes from our cars at pretty much every base because the locals usually enjoy nothing more than to beat up and mug military personnel, smash their cars up etc. 

It's vulgar patriotism used to portray the act of killing as a noble profession. No longer are western wars about defending the homeland but about securing economic interests abroad; no longer are people conscripted into service but rather volunteer to join. However, the reason we don't treat soldiers in the same way is because it is utterly tasteless and crass. And when you start with soldiers it's hard to know when to stop, which is why you now see similar displays in the US when it comes to police and firemen.

 

However, I utterly reject the implication that soldiers in the UK are treated with contempt and have to hide their profession in order to avoid getting beaten up. I regularly see soldiers in their uniforms and they are proud of it. The town of Royal Wootton Bassett has long held public gatherings to salute the repatriation of dead servicemen and I have seen nothing but respect for soldiers, though I am aware that some soldiers are occasionally subjected to verbal abuse from people critical of the war (especially Muslims because of the nature of modern conflicts). Whatever disagreements I have over the UK's foreign policy I put aside when it comes to respecting the brave men and women risking their lives for their country.

 

Your comment makes it sound like you don't understand British culture - being low key and reserved is our way of respected soldiers.

 

PS - You should never use the Daily Mail to support your argument if you want to be taken seriously.

[McKay 3,694]

However, I utterly reject the implication that soldiers in the UK are treated with contempt and have to hide their profession in order to avoid getting beaten up. I regularly see soldiers in their uniforms and they are proud of it. The town of Royal Wootton Bassett has long held public gatherings to salute the repatriation of dead servicemen and I have seen nothing but respect for soldiers, though I am aware that some soldiers are occasionally subjected to verbal abuse from people critical of the war (especially Muslims because of the nature of modern conflicts). Whatever disagreements I have over the UK's foreign policy I put aside when it comes to respecting the brave men and women risking their lives for their country.

 

Your comment makes it sound like you don't understand British culture - being low key and reserved is our way of respected soldiers.

 

PS - You should never use the Daily Mail to support your argument if you want to be taken seriously.

 

Youre basing your entire opinion one a single town, where people began wearing their uniforms as a form of protest against the kind of people who killed that soldier. 

 

I've been to 7 different RAF and Army camps, on the other side of the fence there are always notices about hiding anything that identifies your car as belonging to service personnel, while many people still choose to wear uniform outside for convenience, it is generally discouraged. I never said people didn't respect troops here, but there's nothing low key about beating up service personnel in nightclubs (they stand out) just for being in the forces, I see it happen, a lot. At all of the camps I've been at. At my current base  someone spray painted "RAF ******s" on the side of some bodies house in huge letters. Things seemed to have died down after some local guys made the mistake of starting a fight with an infantry guy, and didn't realize he'd gone to the pub with 12 of his friends, who promptly held his arms back and began tenderising his torso. Cars get routinely keyed and jokers like to mail talcom powder to random addresses on the camp because they know it has to be treated like Anthrax once discovered. And this is a town village where the personnel and their families probably outnumber the locals. 

 

I've seen it even worse in Cosford, and Brize Norton. And before you immediately dismiss the article at hand, it still shows what happens over here.  

 

And why do you immediately jump to the conclusion that its propaganda? It could simply be for ceremony. You don't realize how much pointless crap the military does it purely for ceremony and tradition. The planes they actually fly the bodies out on might not be big enough to accommodate that ceremony. Some of the coffins might not have any bodies in because they couldn't recover enough of it. Does that make it propaganda too?

[zhangm 1,066]

Fake planes as offensive as their not using real bullets in a gun salute.

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

I've been to 7 different RAF and Army camps, on the other side of the fence there are always notices about hiding anything that identifies your car as belonging to service personnel, while many people still choose to wear uniform outside for convenience, it is generally discouraged. I never said people didn't respect troops here, but there's nothing low key about beating up service personnel in nightclubs (they stand out) just for being in the forces, I see it happen, a lot.

And there are plenty of occasions where British servicemen start fights in pubs and bars, including a high profile one last month. I've witnessed far too many soldiers and navy personnel getting drunk and trying to start fights with people - it's not a one way thing. However, my point isn't to criticise the conduct of a small percentage of people who take things too far. Of course soldiers are going to be on the receiving end of criticism as they're the most tangible element of the country's foreign policy but they are also on the receiving end of a lot of praise and admiration. Advising soldiers to hide their apparel is little different to car owners being advised not to leave valuables visible in the car, it's designed to minimise risk - the problem is that there are too many thugs in the UK who see beating up a soldier a way of demonstrating their machismo.

 

As I said, I find the type of patriotism seen in the US to be rather vulgar and certainly not something that should be emulated over here. British support for the services is best seen through organisations like the Royal British Legion and Help For Heroes or the symbolic gatherings held in Royal Wootton Bassett and the nationally observed Armed Forces Day. Where I live Armed Forces day is marked with the Union Flag being displayed outside most houses and a procession through town and is very well received. It's more low key than the US but I consider it much more respectful.

[Enron 4,706]

It's not "some guy", it's David Pakman and his show is broadcast on over 155 television and radio stations, in addition to YouTube.

 

According to that link, he's on "Free Speech TV" and "The Young Turks Network"... so yeah, it is "some guy"

[FlintyV 732]

The USA treats their armed forces and veterans a million times better than we do in the UK. They clear the roads when they have convoys of dead troops coming through, what happens here? They get stuck in traffic. We're advised to take our uniforms off and hide all military passes from our cars at pretty much every base because the locals usually enjoy nothing more than to beat up and mug military personnel, smash their cars up etc. 

 

Every time I go to the USA I get thanked, handshakes. Huge discounts Etc

 

I know this article shows Canada but they do the same in the USA. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-559303/Pictures-shame-reveal-shabby-way-Britain-treats-fallen-heroes.html

 

Using the DailyMail as source is laughable. Look at the bias in those carefully chosen images. The paper that hates Britain. 

[CJ33 43]

When the fundamentals behind the war are a fraud, why is it a shocker if the ceremony was "faked".. Besides, who cares if the planes couldnt fly. People are dead and being buried, and the only thing that some people care about is that a plane used cant really fly? 

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

And why do you immediately jump to the conclusion that its propaganda? It could simply be for ceremony. You don't realize how much pointless crap the military does it purely for ceremony and tradition.

It depends on the context. In this case I consider towing out a plane that cannot fly, loading it with the bodies of dead soldiers and then unloading them in front of the media to be propaganda, just as I did when coverage of bodies returning from wars was being suppressed by the US government. It's creating a false narrative. Of course it's right to pay respects to the dead, especially those risking their lives in the interests of their country (however misguided), but I don't think it should be about an ostentatious spectacle designed to create a mythos around the armed forces and satiate the inquisitiveness of the general public rather than respect the death of the individual.

 

Some of the coffins might not have any bodies in because they couldn't recover enough of it. Does that make it propaganda too?

I personally dislike the concept of fake coffins but my understanding is that such a decision would be made by the family, meaning that it wouldn't be considered propaganda.

 

Fake planes as offensive as their not using real bullets in a gun salute.

That's done for safety reasons and the pretence isn't to deceive.

 

According to that link, he's on "Free Speech TV" and "The Young Turks Network"... so yeah, it is "some guy"

If you want to dismiss a nationally syndicated television, radio and internet host viewed by millions of people as "some guy" then go ahead but it's disingenuous.

[mudslag 2,437]

Even the blogger in the video even says that even being symbolic is still acceptable. In the end if this gives closure to some, then how they do it is far less important then the fact that they are doing it. The OP is just posting more garbage anti American rhetoric for the sake of posting it. If this was some daily/weekly/monthly thing published and put out there for the country to see then you might, and I stress might have an argument for it being propaganda. But the fact that these are small ceremonies held for small groups of family and veterans falls more in line with being ceremonial then some propaganda machine.

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

Even the blogger in the video even says that even being symbolic is still acceptable.

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, radio and web host. And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

If this was some daily/weekly/monthly thing published and put out there for the country to see then you might, and I stress might have an argument for it being propaganda. But the fact that these are small ceremonies held for small groups of family and veterans falls more in line with being ceremonial then some propaganda machine.

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

[adrynalyne 5,266]

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, radio and web host. And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

 

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, and we, ours.

 

Don't act like yours is the correct one, because that is purely in the eye of the beholder.  In your case, you take any and every chance to bash the US, so there is no little to no surprise where your opinion lies.  In fact, had they been real, working planes you wouldn't have posted at all, because it wouldn't have suited your agenda.

[mudslag 2,437]

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, radio and web host. And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

 

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

 

 

Free Speech TV is meaningless to me, certainly isn't a channel that my cable provider offers. Looking it up it looks more like the old independent UHF stations of the old days, just with updated green screen graphics. So in the end, it's still an advanced glorified blog. 

 

As for the ceremonies, they involve and use what ever those organizers want to use. After all, being a symbolic ceremony would make more sense to make it seems as legit as possible, it's also prob cheaper too. As for perception of war, I would imagine a ceremony that focuses on the dead, sends a pretty damn powerful message to those veterans and the family of lost ones, that war is pretty ######ed up. 

[mudslag 2,437]

From the article http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/DOD_statement_on_arrival_ceremonies2.pdf

 

Part of the ceremony involves symbolically transferring the recovered remains from an aircraft to a 

vehicle for follow-on transportation to the lab. Many times, static aircraft are used for the ceremonies, as 

operational requirements dictate flight schedules and aircraft availability. This transfer symbolizes the 

arrival of our fallen service members. 

 

It is important to note that recovered remains ceremoniously transferred from the aircraft to the CIL 

vehicle have been in the lab undergoing forensic analysis to determine identity. When remains first arrive 

in Hawaii, JPAC cannot confirm if the remains are those of an American service member. JPAC adheres 

to a strict chain of custody to ensure the integrity of the identification.

[OP theyarecomingforyou 8,487]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, and we, ours.

 

Don't act like yours is the correct one, because that is purely in the eye of the beholder.

That wasn't my point. I was simply explaining how I consider it to be propaganda and distasteful. Others are free to disagree and I have always been willing to respond to other people's perspectives, even if I disagree with them.

 

In fact, had they been real, working planes you wouldn't have posted at all, because it wouldn't have suited your agenda.

Had they been real working planes it wouldn't have been a news story.  :rolleyes:

[adrynalyne 5,266]

That wasn't my point. I was simply explaining how I consider it to be propaganda and distasteful. Others are free to disagree and I have always been willing to respond to other people's perspectives, even if I disagree with them.

 

 

Had they been real working planes it wouldn't have been a news story.  :rolleyes:

THIS isn't news either.

 

Just someone trying to make it out to be something sensational.

[mudslag 2,437]

And that may be his opinion but it isn't mine.

 

 

So basically you are using the video parts that satisfy your agenda and cherry pick the parts out that don't. Got it. 

[McKay 3,694]

He isn't a blogger, he's a nationally syndicated television, 

Small ceremonies don't involve a 141-ton prop plane. And while not every ceremony will necessarily receive local or national media coverage the reality is that it does play a major role in shaping people's perception of war.

 

Military ceremonies are measured in scale by the manpower involved. Moving a cargo plane takes 2 guys (Driver and guider) 10-15 minutes and costs nothing. If you've got a tonne of troops marching in a parade then it'll be deemed a big ceremony. Heck they wheel the Lancaster bomber outside in the open on nice days here purely so the plane spotters can gawk at it. They'll wheel fighter jets out to pose for office photos. 

 

After reading up, this entire ceremony is definitely purely for ceremon sake. Tradition, to honour the dead. The bodies having arrived previously and will be sat in forensics to be identified. They have since renamed the ceremony to address any confusion. 

 

The ceremony is there so the padre and high ranking officers can say their thanks all in one place. I feel its highly disrespectful to refer to it as propaganda.