Xbox One 50Hz TV signal judder explained

[SnoopZ]

50hz input on a 60hz output device wouldn't causes freezes, jerkiness sure, but not freezes. 

Not sure exactly but it is a very common problem i know 3 people on another forum with exactly the same problem here in the UK.

[HawkMan]

PAL-60 has been a universal standard now for well over 10 years.

If your TV doesn't support it... Too bad, you paid money for a TV that the production company didn't care about.

 

sigh....

 

that's not the point...

 

your Terrestrial/Cable/satellite TV box. outputs PAL50, cause that's what the TV channels use, and what most of the TV viewing world has been using. the Xbox outputs in PAL60. 

[SnoopZ]

PAL-60 has been a universal standard now for well over 10 years.

If your TV doesn't support it... Too bad, you paid money for a TV that the production company didn't care about.

My Tv is Sony and only 5 years old so i don't think that is the issue.

[seta-san]

Yes, you americans should have gone to 50, then it would have been.

 

But reality is that it isn't that simple. all he media houses has billions worth of editing equipment designed to work at 50. and all the old material it's still 50. 

 

yeah. but the two countries that matter in electrics (japan and U.S.) are 60hz. The 50hz made sense when PAL provided superior color replication. With HDTV, not so much.

[Lord Method Man]

back in the day between NTSC and PAL you could make an arguement for 50hz. when we went to digital signals and HDTV it should have been standardized.

 

Yeah. I didn't know this 50Hz crap still went on anywhere. I thought that went away with the advent of HDTV.

[MikeChipshop Member]

yeah. but the two countries that matter in electrics (japan and U.S.)

 

Dunno where you come up with this crap. 

[droolingmonkey]

Yeah. I didn't know this 50Hz crap still went on anywhere. I thought that went away with the advent of HDTV.

 

By "anywhere" you mean basically "everywhere" except the US and Japan...

[seta-san]

Dunno where you come up with this crap. 

 

the vast majority of high end electronics come from the U.S. and Japan. Don't  like the fact that the Xbox works better with 60hz? why doesn't Europe make something worth developing for ?

[MikeChipshop Member]

the vast majority of high end electronics come from the U.S. and Japan. Don't  like the fact that the Xbox works better with 60hz? why doesn't Europe make something worth developing for ?

 

I suggest you do some reading before you spout turds.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

[Ambroos]

Ehm. This is ###### what some of you talking. For digital signals it really doesn't matter if it's 50Hz or 60Hz, all consumer products have supported both for ages.

 

The thing is, things in Europe are filmed at 25 or 50 FPS and broadcasted at 50Hz. Why? Because you can't simply convert something from 50Hz to 60Hz or the other way around. As long as people are watching analog TV they will keep on doing it.

 

Right now all broadcast in Europe is done at 50Hz, which is technically just as good or bad as 60Hz. Why would we change? If anything if you ask me all non-game material should be done in 24FPS or 48FPS, which can, luckily, be easily converted to 25FPS and 50FPS. Basically, movies look better on European TV channels than they do in the US because the conversion from 24Hz to 50Hz can be done without frame skipping/duplication/loss with very minor side effects, while you always get issues with 24Hz on 60Hz displays.

 

So if you look at it rationally our tech is actually superior and more suitable for pretty much everything, including backwards compatibility. What Microsoft did here is just a typical Microsoft compromise where they release a feature that's only really well-rounded, finished and working properly for the US, as usual.

 

(and seta-san, as MikeChipshop said, you really are quite ignorant)

[seta-san]

Ehm. This is bull**** what some of you talking. For digital signals it really doesn't matter if it's 50Hz or 60Hz, all consumer products have supported both for ages.

 

The thing is, things in Europe are filmed at 25 or 50 FPS and broadcasted at 50Hz. Why? Because you can't simply convert something from 50Hz to 60Hz or the other way around. As long as people are watching analog TV they will keep on doing it.

 

Right now all broadcast in Europe is done at 50Hz, which is technically just as good or bad as 60Hz. Why would we change? If anything if you ask me all non-game material should be done in 24FPS or 48FPS, which can, luckily, be easily converted to 25FPS and 50FPS. Basically, movies look better on European TV channels than they do in the US because the conversion from 24Hz to 50Hz can be done without frame skipping/duplication/loss with very minor side effects, while you always get issues with 24Hz on 60Hz displays.

 

So if you look at it rationally our tech is actually superior and more suitable for pretty much everything, including backwards compatibility. What Microsoft did here is just a typical Microsoft compromise where they release a feature that's only really well-rounded, finished and working properly for the US, as usual.

 

(and seta-san, as MikeChipshop said, you really are quite ignorant)

 

someone's got a stick up their ass to be using the language of oppression. Don't like the fact that america and japan do things one way either deal with it or don't. it's not our problem.

[HawkMan]

yeah. but the two countries that matter in electrics (japan and U.S.) are 60hz. The 50hz made sense when PAL provided superior color replication. With HDTV, not so much.

US you say... So Philips, Grundig, B&O et al doesn't matter in electrics huh ?

[trooper11]

So if you look at it rationally our tech is actually superior and more suitable for pretty much everything, including backwards compatibility. What Microsoft did here is just a typical Microsoft compromise where they release a feature that's only really well-rounded, finished and working properly for the US, as usual.

 

(and seta-san, as MikeChipshop said, you really are quite ignorant)

First of all, I everyone needs to stop making this an argument about the benefits of 50hz or arguing about why the standards are the way they are. This thread is all about a problem that someone has run into when trying to use the HDMI-in on the X1

I will say this again. MS made it perfectly clear that they would be rolling out proper European TV support post launch. You can look back in this very thread for a link to that statement. MS said well in advance that US support had been completed, but they needed more time to complete all the deals and software support for European TV features to work properly.

Now, if you guys want to make this something bigger, well that's your choice, but for now, maybe we should focus on the issue at hand.

I would suggest that anyone that is having this issue or needs proper support for 50hz contact MS support and tell them about it. Contact them via phone, email, and their official twitter account if you have to. Let them know exactly what is happening. Hopefully, MS will then feel the need to pass along info on when that might be fixed or that they at least are aware of the issue and are working on a fix.

Heck, the issue doesn't even affect me, but I would be much happier to see it fixed.

[HawkMan]

the vast majority of high end electronics come from the U.S. and Japan. Don't  like the fact that the Xbox works better with 60hz? why doesn't Europe make something worth developing for ?

The vast majority of TV sets come from Europe and China(s) and Korea.

[George P Global Moderator]

Just out of curiosity but has anyone tried changing the output from the cable box to the XB1?     I'm also waiting to see what MS has to say about this officially.

[+virtorio MVC]

someone's got a stick up their ass to be using the language of oppression. Don't like the fact that america and japan do things one way either deal with it or don't. it's not our problem.

If companies want to export their products to a Global market, it is indeed their problem.

[Ambroos]

Just out of curiosity but has anyone tried changing the output from the cable box to the XB1?     I'm also waiting to see what MS has to say about this officially.

 

You can't choose the refresh rate on those, the only options you have are usually 720p, 1080i (and sometimes 1080p). In Europe it'll always be 50Hz.

[SnoopZ]

Just out of curiosity but has anyone tried changing the output from the cable box to the XB1?     I'm also waiting to see what MS has to say about this officially.

I have changed the output(HDMI socket), changed the HDMI lead and also messed with the TV settings, only turning OFF AUTO FILM 1 on my Sony TV stopped or improved the panning judder but i still have the split second(s) freezing every 5mins or so.

[FiB3R]

No offence man, but get a better TV. There is no way that old Sony is doing your new console justice, image quality wise, never mind that it can't even handle a 60Hz input. I say this as somebody that not to long ago did the exact same thing. My top of the range Sony cost me ?2500 back when I first bought it. TV's costing way lest than half of that, ###### all over it these days. I was really lucky to get a good deal on my new one, and selling my old one paid for it.

[SnoopZ]

No offence man, but get a better TV. There is no way that old Sony is doing your new console justice, image quality wise, never mind that it can't even handle a 60Hz input. I say this as somebody that not to long ago did the exact same thing. My top of the range Sony cost me ?2500 at the time. TV's costing way lest than half of that, **** all over it these days. I was really lucky to get a good deal on my new one, and selling my old one paid for it.

No offence Man, but my TV is not old, it is a perfect modern 5 year old Sony LCD, i know people with TVs that are alot newer in the UK and they all have this issue.

[HawkMan]

No offence man, but get a better TV. There is no way that old Sony is doing your new console justice, image quality wise, never mind that it can't even handle a 60Hz input. I say this as somebody that not to long ago did the exact same thing. My top of the range Sony cost me ?2500 back when I first bought it. TV's costing way lest than half of that, **** all over it these days. I was really lucky to get a good deal on my new one, and selling my old one paid for it.

Omg, it has nothing to do with wether the tv can handle 60hz or not.

[trooper11]

I have changed the output(HDMI socket), changed the HDMI lead and also messed with the TV settings, only turning OFF AUTO FILM 1 on my Sony TV stopped or improved the panning judder but i still have the split second(s) freezing every 5mins or so.

So the judder is gone or almost gone?

Hmm, could that mean that it was the TV causing the issue because it was applying an effect to the display that interfered with the X1 pass through operation?

I wonder what could be causing the freezing. Maybe there is another setting on your TV that could be introducing the issue or mitigate it.

[Ambroos]

Film Mode on BRAVIA TV's tries to detect exactly what's going wrong here, framerates that don't match the signal refresh rate and then correct it. It's probably going wrong since there's a discrepancy between the TV signal and everything the Xbox itself overlays. It's probably causing switches between modes at random intervals and that can't be healthy.

 

It's not a bad thing at all if your input is consistent, and if you use a PC as input for example it's really worth leaving it on.

[SnoopZ]

The judder seems very normal now as i cant detect it with Film Mode off, i cant find any other setting on the TV to stop the freezing though, the last thing i did was select GAME\TEXT mode which still had the issue.

 

It is ONLY broadcast TV or DVR recorded broadcast TV that it  randomly freezes on, i never get it when playing a game, :)

[trooper11]

The judder seems very normal now as i cant detect it, i cant find any other setting on the TV to stop the freezing though, the last thing i did was select GAME\TEXT mode which still had the issue.

 

It is ONLY broadcast TV or DVR recorded broadcast TV that is freezes on i never get it when playing a game, :)

Hmm, I wonder if its not related to it being 50Hz at all and maybe something else going wrong in the communication between the cable box and the X1.

MS remarked that one of the reasons that dts audio pass through on the X1 was marked as (beta)and not on by default was because they were still correcting issues with some cable boxes. That could also be why they announced that proper European support would come after launch. They may need more time to test all of these different boxes in use and deal with all sorts of issues in how they operate.

I wonder if an hdmi handshake issue or problems related to HDCP cause freezing like that. Could there be a cable box setting that would help?

I have seen freezing happen before via a cable box to a tv, specifically when viewing digital channels. It was as if you were watching streaming video and it would freeze for a few seconds to 'buffer'. Is that how you would describe your issue?