Xbox One 50Hz TV signal judder explained

[SnoopZ]

This is my reasoning why I think my TV is OK, the signal comes out of my cable box at 50hz it then goes into the HDMI in on the X1 and from what I understand it must be getting converted to 60hz and then sent to the TV via the HDMI out. Now this is the same HDMI out that is used to play games on, so that would be 60hz to and I don't have an issue with any freezing or stuttering with that.

So surely that must rule out the TV?

[the better twin]

Let's stay on topic guys. MS isn't the only US based company that targets the US first and leaves most of the rest of the world out with it's services. I don't get Netflix, I don't get Hulu, I don't get lots of web services. Hell my country just got Spotify last month ffs. All we can do is wait for them to expand to our market. Let's not single out one company like they're the only ones doing it, lots are.

Bit different, those are either much smaller companies or are us specific cable providers. Microsoft are already of the size with regional divisions to accomodate worldwide products, however they do poorly in pretty much every regard.

Its no surprise people are complaining. This is a pretty major oversight.

Im not surprised though. Microsofts live services have been totally US focussed for years and the reveal of the Xbox one just reinforced that.

[jakem1]

Let's stay on topic guys.   MS isn't the only US based company that targets the US first and leaves most of the rest of the world out with it's services.  I don't get Netflix, I don't get Hulu,  I don't get lots of web services.  Hell my country just got Spotify last month ffs.   All we can do is wait for them to expand to our market.    Let's not single out one company like they're the only ones doing it, lots are. 

 

The difference is that Netflix and Hulu don't pretend to offer their services or don't offer partially supported services in Greece.  MS, on the other hand, are selling the Xbox One in the EU and other regions that only support 50Hz and they're selling it at full price despite the fact that it doesn't work properly.  Unfortunately Microsoft have proven time and time again that they're unable to manage TV outside the US and if WMC is anything to go by the Xbox is never going to work properly. 

[trooper11]

Bit different, those are either much smaller companies or are us specific cable providers. Microsoft are already of the size with regional divisions to accomodate worldwide products, however they do poorly in pretty much every regard.

Its no surprise people are complaining. This is a pretty major oversight.

Im not surprised though. Microsofts live services have been totally US focussed for years and the reveal of the Xbox one just reinforced that.

Netflix is not a small company though.

Also, lets not forget Google and Apple. Large companies too and they both have problems offering all media services to all regions.

The reality is that its is quite difficult to offer a single device that conforms to each and every tv standard while also fully supporting the cable boxes that are used in different regions. MS stated as much before launch, and yet some people would ignore that, as if MS made this pledge of 100% support in all regions day one. They pledged to roll out European TV support post launch, basically as soon as they could. Right now, the only pledged support has been for the US since they had time to complete building in support.

Regardless, I hope anyone effected by this is actually reaching out to MS directly to make sure they know the extent of the issue. It would be interesting to hear what responses you guys get. As I told SnoopZ, give MS a call, get on a live chat, and post on their official twitter support page. That will get their attention and hopefully result in a positive response for those affected.

[trooper11]

The difference is that Netflix and Hulu don't pretend to offer their services or don't offer partially supported services in Greece.  MS, on the other hand, are selling the Xbox One in the EU and other regions that only support 50Hz and they're selling it at full price despite the fact that it doesn't work properly.  Unfortunately Microsoft have proven time and time again that they're unable to manage TV outside the US and if WMC is anything to go by the Xbox is never going to work properly.

And again, MS made no secret about the fact that proper UK/European TV support would be coming later, post launch.

[trooper11]

So surely that must rule out the TV?

Did you get a chance to check if the X1 is properly showing the make and model of your tv, receiver, and cable box in its settings?

[cleverclogs]

So, when playing a blu-ray... are we going to see a 3:2 pull-down issue and extra judder too? :/

[SnoopZ]

Did you get a chance to check if the X1 is properly showing the make and model of your tv, receiver, and cable box in its settings?

I will have to check that tomorrow, not sure where to look, how would it know what cable box I have as I never had to tell it?

[trooper11]

So from reading some more comments on the issue elsewhere, its strange that all of those comments are about the 'judder' affect that SnoopZ brought up. No one has mentioned the constant freezing issue.

Could it be that the judder issue can be overcome by simply disabling the 'film' detection feature on whatever model hdtv you happen to own?

That doesn't solve the freezing issue talked about here, but it takes care of one issue.

It sounds like this can be overcome with a software patch. The X1 is already capable of switching refresh rates on the fly for certain apps. The bluray player can be set to run at 24hz. When this is on, bluray playback is 24hz at full screen and the display output switches to 60hz when using the snap function or switching to another app.

So all MS will need to do is allow 50hz as an option to enable for the TV playback app. So while TV is at full screen, its pushing 50hz and if you snap something or switch out, it changes to 60hz.

[Aergan]

This is my reasoning why I think my TV is OK, the signal comes out of my cable box at 50hz it then goes into the HDMI in on the X1 and from what I understand it must be getting converted to 60hz and then sent to the TV via the HDMI out. Now this is the same HDMI out that is used to play games on, so that would be 60hz to and I don't have an issue with any freezing or stuttering with that.

So surely that must rule out the TV?

 

It's not your TV, it's the 50Hz video output from the channel / TV box you are viewing. You could reproduce the same result with any HDMI display that supports Picture In Picture, one source 60Hz and the other 50Hz.

Different TV modes will try to compensate for it and will likely make it worse or even cause the processing program to fail.

 

I used to have the same type of problem using PiP or Side by Side with a PS2 (50Hz), PC (60Hz) and Dell UltraSharp 20" display (60Hz). I currently have the same issue if I view my Yamaha's setup menu during HDMI pass through on-screen as I have a 50Hz menu overlay over a 60Hz HDMI signal (One hell of a headache).

 

If Microsoft can fix that via a software update & keep the same feature set, I will be quite impressed.

[vcfan]

just to make it clear, the problem is not the tv. Its the fact that his cable box outputs 50hz, and Xbox one outputs 60hz. Any modern tv should support 50hz and 60hz. But since the Xbox is taking a 50hz and outputting 60hz, some type of frame rate conversion is either happening,which leads to judder, or my theory is that no framerate conversion is actually happening yet,so the 50hz signal is being dumped straight to the set,which leads to a repeat of the last frame at 10x,which is why the picture looks like it froze. Microsoft has said support for tv services is coming to different regions down the road,I don't think its fair to criticize this feature if it is broken for those users.

 

anyways with bluray there is a 24hz mode that will let your tv handle this signal natively,and if your tv can do 24hz you will get a judder free picture with no 3:2 pulldown required. If you turn the option off,Xbox will do the pulldown and output it at 60hz. It may be that for EU users could be able to choose for the Xbox do frame rate conversion of 50hz to 60hz(may be noticeable judder) when used in snap view,and when full screen it will set the tv mode to 50hz(tv may blank for a second when switching modes), just like it does if you set the bluray 24hz option on. Another option they may give is to run the UI and tv at 50hz, and when switching to a game tv will switch over to 60hz.

[jakem1]

And again, MS made no secret about the fact that proper UK/European TV support would be coming later, post launch.

 

Well, they were up front about the fact that they wouldn't offer guide support at launch but they should have disabled HDMI pass through altogether if they couldn't get it to work.  They should probably have discounted the Xbox at launch if they couldn't get it to do everything it is meant to do. Why is the rest of the world paying for missing functionality?

 

As for proper UK/European TV support - I don't think we'll ever get that.  For instance, here in the UK many/most people watch free to air TV using the tuner in their TV rather than a set top box.  AFAIK the Xbox will never support that.  I also doubt that MS will offer full support for all the different cable operators here in Europe at any point (although I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

[trooper11]

So, when playing a blu-ray... are we going to see a 3:2 pull-down issue and extra judder too? :/

There is an option in the settings to enable 24hz while playing blurays in full screen.

 

 

I will have to check that tomorrow, not sure where to look.

Alright. I'm not sure if this will help at all, but I think it would be helpful to verify that things are being seen properly.

for reference, choose the 'Settings' tile and then:

1. Choose 'TV & One Guide'

2. Choose 'Devices'

3. Here you should see your devices listed with the right model numbers. If they are not correct, then try to set them up and choose the correct models

Also, after you have checked that, back out of 'Devices' and choose 'Troubleshooting'. In here, you should see the first option is 'HDMI'. Your device should be listed. If it is, then choose it and it will troubleshoot your display, perhaps offering some fix.

[trooper11]

Well, they were up front about the fact that they wouldn't offer guide support at launch but they should have disabled HDMI pass through altogether if they couldn't get it to work.  They should probably have discounted the Xbox at launch if they couldn't get it to do everything it is meant to do. Why is the rest of the world paying for missing functionality?

 

As for proper UK/European TV support - I don't think we'll ever get that.  For instance, here in the UK many/most people watch free to air TV using the tuner in their TV rather than a set top box.  AFAIK the Xbox will never support that.  I also doubt that MS will offer full support for all the different cable operators here in Europe at any point (although I'd be happy to be proven wrong).

Look, both console launched with missing features. For MS in particular, they have said plainly that they intend to bring full support post launch. I'm not sure how much more plain they could have been on that.

MS even went as far as to specifically say that OTA was also going to be a supported option for TV viewing. I'm not claiming this will happen or that its possible, I'm just sharing what MS has said. Its on their site for all to see.

I have no idea if the current issue is part of that delayed support roll out, or if its a bug that was not meant to present at launch. All I know is that MS claims to be working on rolling out the tv features as quickly as they can. This issue needs to be told directly to MS by those affected.

[HawkMan]

the zune was a product that no one wanted or needed though parts of it's legacy lives in windows phone. You europeans will still trip over yourselves to get the Xbox One. You've delt with the 50hz problem on games going back to at least the 80s and you're still dealing with it now. Maybe it would do you good to get a 60hz  tv as your gaming TV.

 

no the 50hz "problem" has nothing to do with the games and this doesn't affect gaming. games will work in 60hz on our TV's. seriously READ THE THREAD! 

[HawkMan]

I call this an out cry and considering everyone i know in the UK with an X1 has the same issue.

 

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/xbox-50hz-201311233468.htm

 

When it freezes does only the TV picture freeze or does everything from the xbox freeze ? can you open the xbox menu ? if you have something snapped with the tv picture does it freeze to or just the tv picture ? 

[HawkMan]

This is my reasoning why I think my TV is OK, the signal comes out of my cable box at 50hz it then goes into the HDMI in on the X1 and from what I understand it must be getting converted to 60hz and then sent to the TV via the HDMI out. Now this is the same HDMI out that is used to play games on, so that would be 60hz to and I don't have an issue with any freezing or stuttering with that.

So surely that must rule out the TV?

 

Actually the HDMI cable I suspected of being bad was the one between your tuner and the xbox, not xbox and tv. 

[Depicus]

Look, both console launched with missing features. For MS in particular, they have said plainly that they intend to bring full support post launch. I'm not sure how much more plain they could have been on that.

MS even went as far as to specifically say that OTA was also going to be a supported option for TV viewing. I'm not claiming this will happen or that its possible, I'm just sharing what MS has said. Its on their site for all to see.

I have no idea if the current issue is part of that delayed support roll out, or if its a bug that was not meant to present at launch. All I know is that MS claims to be working on rolling out the tv features as quickly as they can. This issue needs to be told directly to MS by those affected.

 

The problem is that most people are not going to any site to read if a feature most people don't understand works or not. If you are going to rush out a console then maybe it would have been better to remove that feature for those countries affected so you then don't get the negative press for a half assed implementation.

[trooper11]

The problem is that most people are not going to any site to read if a feature most people don't understand works or not. If you are going to rush out a console then maybe it would have been better to remove that feature for those countries affected so you then don't get the negative press for a half assed implementation.

Wouldn't those same people be upset to find out that the hdmi-in port on their X1 was disabled all together? As you said, they wouldn't go and read MS' announcement anyway. Lets remember, the issue is only tied to live TV, there is nothing stopping people in Europe from using the function with other devices. So it still has some utility even while this bug is present.

But again, I have no idea if the lack of 50hz support is a bug or if its part of the delayed support that MS spoke about.

If it is a bug, then MS may be working on a fix. Either way, I hope people are not just talking on forums but are actually contacting MS. I want to hear what their response is once so many users contact them. It should light a fire under them.

[SnoopZ]

Did you get a chance to check if the X1 is properly showing the make and model of your tv, receiver, and cable box in its settings?

The TV is set correctly, and this morning it is freezing all the time making it unwatchable through the X1.

[SnoopZ]

When it freezes does only the TV picture freeze or does everything from the xbox freeze ? can you open the xbox menu ? if you have something snapped with the tv picture does it freeze to or just the tv picture ? 

The X1 doesn't freeze at all i can still move around the guide.

[SnoopZ]

The X1 doesn't freeze at all i can still move around the guide.

I have also just swapped the HDMI lead again and it still freezes.

[FiB3R]

Apologias for not understanding what was going on, list night. I was a little... tipsy :whistle:

 

This issue is very relevant to my interests.

[McKay]

I was wary about the X1 after they revealed it because it was mostly "TV! Media!"

 

I knew from experience that their efforts for that kind of stuff outside the US is usually half-baked.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Wouldn't those same people be upset to find out that the hdmi-in port on their X1 was disabled all together? As you said, they wouldn't go and read MS' announcement anyway. Lets remember, the issue is only tied to live TV, there is nothing stopping people in Europe from using the function with other devices. So it still has some utility even while this bug is present.

But again, I have no idea if the lack of 50hz support is a bug or if its part of the delayed support that MS spoke about.

If it is a bug, then MS may be working on a fix. Either way, I hope people are not just talking on forums but are actually contacting MS. I want to hear what their response is once so many users contact them. It should light a fire under them.

 

It's not easy, actually verging on downright impossible to patch this. All the games/UI would have to be reprogrammed to 50hz.