Xbox One 50Hz TV signal judder explained

[SnoopZ]

Wouldn't those same people be upset to find out that the hdmi-in port on their X1 was disabled all together? As you said, they wouldn't go and read MS' announcement anyway. Lets remember, the issue is only tied to live TV, there is nothing stopping people in Europe from using the function with other devices. So it still has some utility even while this bug is present.

But again, I have no idea if the lack of 50hz support is a bug or if its part of the delayed support that MS spoke about.

If it is a bug, then MS may be working on a fix. Either way, I hope people are not just talking on forums but are actually contacting MS. I want to hear what their response is once so many users contact them. It should light a fire under them.

Just found this thread, lots of people having an issue here.

 

http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4277/t/1625661.aspx

[HawkMan]

It's not easy, actually verging on downright impossible to patch this. All the games/UI would have to be reprogrammed to 50hz.

 

 

umm no games or UI's are hard coded to 50hz. that's just what they're rendered at.

 

either way, I don't believe this would affect games at at all anyway since I don't' think you can snap games with live tv and show both ? the change would be a fairly non dramatic change that limits the X1's output of any rendering to 50fps whenever something is snapped or overlaid with live TV, or any input that works at 50hz. 

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

umm no games or UI's are hard coded to 50hz. that's just what they're rendered at.

 

either way, I don't believe this would affect games at at all anyway since I don't' think you can snap games with live tv and show both ? the change would be a fairly non dramatic change that limits the X1's output of any rendering to 50fps whenever something is snapped or overlaid with live TV, or any input that works at 50hz. 

 

You can

 

 

The UI is always going to run at 60hz as it has to to support the games.

[HawkMan]

I didn't have audio here, but isn't the sportcenter thing a live streaming service they have ?

 

either way, it would be a "relatively" simple jub of capping the output fps on the X1 to 50 when snapped with 50hz input. 

[Jarrichvdv]

It's something typical for Microsoft. They offer all services in the US, some in the UK too and if you go anywhere else (like mainland Europe, Belgium, where I live) you just lose out. On everything. And they delay stuff, other stuff isn't available, badly localized, ... And that's every consumer-oriented Microsoft division that does this.

Microsoft is working heavily towards a more non-USA friendly console. Developing a console that offers great value for every customers in the whole world is a heavy task and Microsoft is hard at work to give customers in the launch markets the best possible experience. The delay in 8 countries also covers the development of entertainment - and other - apps for these locales, as a prime example of this focus.

I am, however, not denying the existence of launch issues such as this 50Hz/60Hz image judder.

Disclaimer: I'm an Xbox Elite Team member for Microsoft Belgium, but I'm not blindly defending the Xbox One, but just explaining what's going on, and what to expect going forward. 

[123456789A]

I managed to stop the panning judder mostly by turning OFF 'FILM AUTO 1' in my Sony TVs settings, but this doesn't stop my main problem where the whole TV picture can randomly freeze for a split second or in worst case i was getting a message on the screen saying the Xbox has lost the TV signal.

 

Mine was doing this too, but I tried a new HDMI cable and it worked flawlessly after that.

[BajiRav]

back in the day between NTSC and PAL you could make an arguement for 50hz. when we went to digital signals and HDTV it should have been standardized.

XKCD got you covered

 

[Dutchie64]

back in the day between NTSC and PAL you could make an arguement for 50hz. when we went to digital signals and HDTV it should have been standardized.

It is.

 

Go to wikipedia, check them (HD standards) out and pick one ;-P

[trooper11]

It's not easy, actually verging on downright impossible to patch this. All the games/UI would have to be reprogrammed to 50hz.

But the key is that MS already demonstrated that it can be patched in. Right now, I can set bluray disc playback to 24hz. That means that while the movie is full screen, it sticks to that. If I switch to the dash, it switches back to 60. It really works.

So, all MS must do is add a setting in the dash to allow the TV app to operate at 50hz while full screen and just switch back when going to the dash.

[Julius Caro]

Modern flatscreens shouldn't have problems displaying both 50 and 60 Hz content.  And by that I mean most tvs state those as compatible inputs. 

 

And a 2013 console shouldn't have problems with this either, microsoft should know better.

 

 

edit: read below. I didnt know we were talking about displaying 50Hz content inside a 60Hz signal 

[Julius Caro]

nvm I just read whats going on.

 

this only affects the XBOX one trying to output the TV input. the xbox works at 60Hz and the TV is 50Hz.  tough luck. Im sure they can improve the conversion software or momentarily turn the output to 50Hz (like the ps3 annoyingly does every now and then)

[BajiRav]

So if you look at it rationally our tech is actually superior and more suitable for pretty much everything, including backwards compatibility. What Microsoft did here is just a typical Microsoft compromise where they release a feature that's only really well-rounded, finished and working properly for the US, as usual.

 

(and seta-san, as MikeChipshop said, you really are quite ignorant)

is TV functionality even available/supported in the Europe?

[vcfan]

Modern flatscreens shouldn't have problems displaying both 50 and 60 Hz content.  And by that I mean most tvs state those as compatible inputs. 

 

And a 2013 console shouldn't have problems with this either, microsoft should know better.

 

 

The explanation sounds like a scapegoat explanation to me and something is odd. Europe's been on 50Hz since.. EVER? Try again, Microsoft.

you seem confused. the xbox is indeed outputting 60hz, but it is receiving 50hz tv signal. this tv signal must then be shown at 60hz. if the xbox would set the tv to 50hz when the cable tv is running in full screen, then it will work fine, just like it currently does with 24hz bluray option on.

they may have to do some frame interpolation when tv is running in snap though,and it may be really good that it looks totally fine(most people I know cant even see bluray judder with 3:2 pulldown),but we don't know what they will do yet because they've already said the tv features are only supported in the US at launch. why cant some people comprehend this yet?

[trooper11]

I have also just swapped the HDMI lead again and it still freezes.

What I don't get is why it would get worse or better at times.

Are you saying that just watching TV at full screen has been freezing more today than it was yesterday?

Out of curiosity, does that behavior change when you have an app snapped?

You would think that if this was simply a case of displaying at the wrong refresh rate, the freezing would be uniform. It would be consistent based on the dropped frames that result. How could the problem get worse is the question.

[MikeChipshop Member]

Just to confuse things more. I just got back from my mates house and he was showing me the XB1 in action (love it btw) and no judder there. He is running through the latest Sky box mind you.

[illStyle]

I hope it's not a repost.

 

I can confirm the Xbox One can either output 24 Hz oder 60 Hz. For us Europeans this means we are able to enjoy judder-free Blueray playback but PAL DVDs (50 Hz content in general actually) will be jerky.

 

I consider this unacceptable. They better sort this out quickly. I going to wait until early 2014. If it's not fixed by then, I'll buy a PS4.

[trooper11]

Just to confuse things more. I just got back from my mates house and he was showing me the XB1 in action (love it btw) and no judder there. He is running through the latest Sky box mind you.

So I wonder if that new Sky box handles the signal differently than the older boxes that many are using.

[MikeChipshop Member]

I'll nip round again later in the week and see if the box has the option to kick out a different signal which it might very well do.

 

I'm still paying the over priced figure for Sky though, no matter what signal their box can kick out :p

[trooper11]

I'll nip round again later in the week and see if the box has the option to kick out a different signal which it might very well do.

 

I'm still paying the over priced figure for Sky though, no matter what signal their box can kick out :p

That would be great to know. In fact, get the exact model number of the box. Then we can see how it compares to other boxes.

[MikeChipshop Member]

That would be great to know. In fact, get the exact model number of the box. Then we can see how it compares to other boxes.

 

Will do, i think he's off on Friday so i'll try for then. I've not been round his house for about a year before today so i don't want to make it to obvious i'm going only to look his XB1 haha

[SnoopZ]

What I don't get is why it would get worse or better at times.

Are you saying that just watching TV at full screen has been freezing more today than it was yesterday?

Out of curiosity, does that behavior change when you have an app snapped?

You would think that if this was simply a case of displaying at the wrong refresh rate, the freezing would be uniform. It would be consistent based on the dropped frames that result. How could the problem get worse is the question.

Watching TV either full screen or in the home guide window has been unusable today, what I plan to do after work late this evening is to power off the x1 completely and also put the HDMI lead that came with the X1 between the TV box and console.

Did you read the link I posted earlier today. loads of people having problems some in the states too?

[illStyle]

As long as the source material is 50 Hz, it's completely irrelevant what your Sky box outputs. Even if it allows 60 Hz output, playback will still be jerky.

[MikeChipshop Member]

As long as the source material is 50 Hz, it's completely irrelevant what your Sky box outputs. Even if it allows 60 Hz output, playback will still be jerky.

 

Well i beg to differ. Having seen it in front of my very eyes.

[illStyle]

It's not that I don't trust your senses, but sometimes it's really hard to notice. It's particularly obvious in news tickers. Maybe you want to give that a try.

 

Another plausible explanation: Your buddies TV may apply some frame interpolation algorythm which manages to smoothen playback a bit.

[trooper11]

Watching TV either full screen or in the home guide window has been unusable today, what I plan to do after work late this evening is to power off the x1 completely and also put the HDMI lead that came with the X1 between the TV box and console.

Did you read the link I posted earlier today. loads of people having problems some in the states too?

Also make sure to check for that info I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I did look at that and yes some in the US have seen the issue. That changes everything.

If its not related to the refresh rate, then this is definitely a bug and not tied to MS' delayed TV rollout for Europe. That should also mean that MS is working on a fix. I hope you have talked to MS directly about your issue.

I had been talking to a friend that has seen some freezing, but its when trying to view his htpc via the X1, not a cable box. Its definitely not a refresh rate issue.

Not everyone is having an issue and it seems to possibly be an hdcp/edid issue. Basically, the X1 is not properly identifying the device running to it and that leads to a loop of both devices checking each other over and over, resulting in freezing. It could also be related to the audio pass through portion. The X1 is using a 'beta' audio driver to support surround sound coming from your cable box/device. MS remarked that it was in beta because they discovered some cable boxes not playing nice with the X1 when outputting surround sound. That driver is unchecked by default in the settings section, but can be enabled.