Back to the Start: imagining a better Windows

[LaP]

And how do you answer 100 million licenses sold? And where is Microsoft "moving on?" Where are they abandoning their "One Microsoft" direction?

License sold != windows 8 installed on a computer. My company will buy new workstations next spring. They will all come with a windows 8 oem license. They will all run Windows 7.

[The Evil Overlord]

Yep the matter of the fact is consumers are the market. If consumers dont want your product then you failed and you have only you to blame and nobody else. It's true for all companies.

I'm sorry for going off on one, as it were, but blaming consumers angered me as it is a cop out, nothing more

[trooper11]

Worse than Bob!!! :laugh:

 

This concept is interesting. I've gone back to Windows and used Windows 8.1 after not really wanting to just to get the most out of a UEFI/SSD based system, and I've been mostly pleasantly impressed with the updates in 8.1 over 8, but I have the one reservation that I don't like that the start screen goes full screen and breaks your workflow. Granted, I typically just type the name of the app I want to run with both the start menu and the start screen, but popping up over everything is still a little annoying to me. A smaller version that still supports the modern styling would definitely be interesting to me. I think it would be ideal to have an option to use a full start screen, a mini start screen/menu like this concept, or a legacy start menu (especially for servers).

 

There isn't room for a metro styled start menu.

Just look around here. The only acceptable change is the 7 start menu.

 

Someone mentioned consumer selfishness...

Well, that's the consumer market in a nutshell. I hate that consumers are being blamed for this, it has annoyed me a little.

 

It's my money. I earned it. I will spend it on what I want to spend it on, if I don't like something I don't buy it, not just win 8, but everything.

I think the consumer selfishness argument is wholly wrong, hell I wouldn't want to live in a nation that tells me I have to buy this, and go f**k myself.

Overall I hated 8 but I did try a couple of times, in my local pc world, to get along with it, for me it felt inferior whilst on desktop in a visual way to 7, and metro just confused me.

I loved the concept as it was a new approach, but that's all I though it was to me.

/rant over

Exactly, people around the internet have made it clear that nothing less than a return to 7 is the answer.

 

 

Where did you see that "it won't be the menu from Windows 7"...source?  

 

Microsoft needs to bring back the start menu (Windows 7) to save their desktop sales.

Do you really think that just adding the 7 start menu will result in a gigantic turn around?

I mean I get it that adding that is the only thing that is acceptable, but will it really change sales of new pcs that much?

[winlonghorn]

Where is this golden rule of which you speak that states that the menu has to be exactly the same as the windows 7start menu? In what world is it criminal to make improvements to a product? I am perfectly ok with the fact that some people don't like windows 8, but it isn't allowed to improve? Really? That is just confusing. I am not trying to troll or anything. I am just seriously confused by that thought process. You don't want the choices of others forced on you. Why can't we all have the right to have the improved menu exist and choose for ourselves? :)

Where did you see that "it won't be the menu from Windows 7"...source?  

 

Microsoft needs to bring back the start menu (Windows 7) to save their desktop sales.  

[The Evil Overlord]

 

Exactly, people around the internet have made it clear that nothing less than a return to 7 is the answer.

I never said that, I said I hated the fact that it's my fault, as a consumer that windows 8 isn't being adopted at a high rate.

it'd be like me telling you, (not asking) to give me ?50,000 UK for a (blank) cd, then you getting upset about the cd being blank, and me telling you it's your fault

[Dot Matrix]

Anything is better than what we have now, I had to explain and show 2 people how to use windows 8 on their new computer today. FML! Is all I could think after. I really want to know what Dot Matrix says to someone when showing them Windows 8 / 8.1  for the first time to make the charms bar look and sound useful on the desktop.

How are they not useful? Quick access to the most used settings isn't useful to you? Not to mention Search? 

[trooper11]

I never said that, I said I hated the fact that it's my fault, as a consumer that windows 8 isn't being adopted at a high rate.

it'd be like me telling you, (not asking) to give me ?50,000 UK for a (blank) cd, then you getting upset about the cd being blank, and me telling you it's your fault

I never said you said that.

But the reality is many people don't want 8. As you said, MS must react to its customers. That means listening to feedback and bring back at least parts of 7.

8 has failed to gain traction and now changes must be made.

[The Evil Overlord]

I never said you said that.

But the reality is many people don't want 8. As you said, MS must react to its customers. That means listening to feedback and bring back at least parts of 7.

8 has failed to gain traction and now changes must be made.

I'm probably just a little too sensitive about it

(I went back and checked for the post that angered me, either it wasn't posted in this thread, or it's been deleted, or I've simply failed to spot it, either way, I apologise for my outburst,)

[trooper11]

I'm probably just a little too sensitive about it

(I went back and checked for the post that angered me, either it wasn't posted in this thread, or it's been deleted, or I've simply failed to spot it, either way, I apologise for my outburst,)

No problem, I know how easy it can be to get worked up over stuff like this.

[McKay]

No problem, I know how easy it can be to get worked up over stuff like this.

 

 

I'm probably just a little too sensitive about it

(I went back and checked for the post that angered me, either it wasn't posted in this thread, or it's been deleted, or I've simply failed to spot it, either way, I apologise for my outburst,)

 

 

[The Evil Overlord]

lol you're an ass :p

funny though

[+Warwagon MVC]

How are they not useful? Quick access to the most used settings isn't useful to you? Not to mention Search? 

 

Exactly, just like that!

 

....

 

As I was showing both parties the charms bar, they both had eyes which glazed over, as in to say, oh my god, i'm so lost. So I show them how to access the charms bar by both windows key + C and By putting their mouse in the bottom right. Every time I show someone this I get the reaction of

 

A) I'm so confused

B) WHY?

C) I just want my start menu back.

[George P Global Moderator]

As much as some people want the old menu from 7 back that's not what anyone should expect, it'll be different.   The second part of this info is having metro apps on the desktop, that in itself means that if anything the desktop is gaining metro parts and will change more over time.  The new menu will, I bet, condense all the touch UI into it, charms will be there for example and pinning tiles as well for those who want to still use them, I do.

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

I think MS are going to follow Apple's footsteps in future versions of Windows. How you ask? By merging Windows Phone and Windows RT, offering it as solution for phones and tablets without the desktop mode built in - the iOS equivalent - and creating a new Windows Professional with a start menu of sorts, windowed modern UI applications, with the focus shifted towards the desktop mode - the OS X equivalent. 

 

The reasoning is simple: Microsoft's biggest market are enterprise customers. In order to avoid Windows 7 turning into the next Windows XP - an OS used far beyond its best before date - they have to offer a compelling solution for the enterprise market and pro consumers.

[Rickkins]

The thing that continues to gall me to this date, is that ALL this nonsense could have been avoided so very easily.

 

All ms had to do, was offer consumers a choice at the install, of desktop or metro. Boom, no more complicated than that.

 

And don't try to fob off nonsense like "the code could not be added" for this or that reason. There are literally dozens of start menu replacements out there, some written by amateurs in their bedrooms.... surely the poindexters at ms central could have cracked the freakin code....

 

Please, don't p*ss in my ear and call it sunshine.....

[Knife Party]

all I can say is WP to the designer of these concepts, they are really nice! its the a nice compromise between integrating metro and the desktop functionality (Y)

[Dot Matrix]

As much as some people want the old menu from 7 back that's not what anyone should expect, it'll be different.   The second part of this info is having metro apps on the desktop, that in itself means that if anything the desktop is gaining metro parts and will change more over time.  The new menu will, I bet, condense all the touch UI into it, charms will be there for example and pinning tiles as well for those who want to still use them, I do.

It's unpractical to bring the old one back when it suffered from numerous problems. 

[Rickkins]

It's unpractical to bring the old one back when it suffered from numerous problems. 

But... would you not concede that the fact that the vast majority despise metro, is a pretty serious problem....??? Straight answer please.

[AJerman]

 

There isn't room for a metro styled start menu.

 

How is there no room for a metro styled start menu? I'm guessing you don't mean there isn't physically enough space, since the mock ups here show it would work just fine, so you just don't think there's room in the ecosystem? Maintaining 3 different UIs may be a bit much, but I think a metro styled start menu would be a better fit on desktop than the start screen personally. I never had an issue so much with the Modern UI (other than it's a bit ugly still, but functionally it's mostly fine) as I did with the full screen start screen. It's obnoxious on a desktop, and there aren't even enough quality apps to need a full screen view. I think something functionally similar to this concept would be great. If anything, drop the regular start menu (I don't mean 7 style, there's no point in that now, I mean CLASSIC start) that I wanted for servers, but I do still think it's the most ridiculous think MS has ever done to put the start screen and modern UI on the server versions. They have never used the full graphical UI for servers until now because now they want to shove this down our throats. As someone who works with Windows Server all day, it's absolutely awful.

 

You say people don't want anything but a 7 style start back, but I think that's a bit overkill. There's nothing wrong with sticking with the new style, but a lot of us DO want a menu back rather than a full screen. I think that's more the concern than it absolutely having to look like the 7 start. At least that's my personal opinion. You'll never make everyone happy though!

 

 

It's unpractical to bring the old one back when it suffered from numerous problems. 

No, you can't just make things up to suit your argument. The previous start menu did NOT have numerous problems. It worked fine for millions and millions of people for some 20 years (through a few minor changes). While, as I said above, I don't necessarily need the 7 style start back, it certainly didn't have numerous problems, and certainly not problems that the start screen fixes.

[Dot Matrix]

But... would you not concede that the fact that the vast majority despise metro, is a pretty serious problem....??? Straight answer please.

Where do the vast majority despise Metro? The concept is still in its infancy, and has plenty of room to grow and evolve. Dynamic computing environments aren't going to go away anytime soon, and to leave them off the desktop would be a mistake. 

 

 

No, you can't just make things up to suit your argument. The previous start menu did NOT have numerous problems. It worked fine for millions and millions of people for some 20 years (through a few minor changes). While, as I said above, I don't necessarily need the 7 style start back, it certainly didn't have numerous problems, and certainly not problems that the start screen fixes.

I'm not making things up. The Start Menu in Windows 7 was broken. It was limited in functionality, and was a leftover feature from a bygone era. The majority of it dates back to 2001, after making the debut in XP (which in itself is also a remnant of a bygone era). 

 

Problems include: 

Small icons - 16x16 and 32x32 are relics. On high resolution and high DPI screens, those sizes don't work, they're too small.

Limited space - The amount of apps you can pin was limited by the height of your screen. Working on a small screen? You're out of luck in pinning apps to the menu. It didn't scroll either, so if you pinned more apps than could be shown, you had no way of accessing them.

Folders and subfolders - In this day and age, this behavior is undesirable. No one wants to spend time digging for apps. Apps shouldn't be hidden, especially behind nondescript manila folders.

No grouping options - It takes too much work to organize the menu to user needs. And outside of a select few, no one bothers with it.

No scalability - Speaks for itself.

No expandability -  The Start Menu can't be used with any other forms of input. In this day and age where multiple forms of input are the norm, you need something that can expand to accept different forms of user input. You need a UI that can adapt to user needs. The static desktop/Start Menu can't do that. The Start Screen can scale, and can expand to encompass different forms of input, which is what makes it a valuable addition to the Windows OS.  

[McKay]

But... would you not concede that the fact that the vast majority despise metro, is a pretty serious problem....??? Straight answer please.

 

Even if they did, which we don't know if it's a vocal minority. The vast majority despised the Start Menu back in 1995 when they introduced it in the first place, people were making the same argument as people are today, going back to the Programn manager in droves etc,

[Rickkins]

Where do the vast majority despise Metro? The concept is still in its infancy, and has plenty of room to grow and evolve. Dynamic computing environments aren't going to go away anytime soon, and to leave them off the desktop would be a mistake.

So then, the answer is no, you won't provide a straight answer.

[Rickkins]

The vast majority despised the Start Menu back in 1995 when they introduced it in the first place,

That's not exactly how I remember it.

[Dot Matrix]

That's not exactly how I remember it.

 

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/microsoft.public.win95.shellui/MEBAy63Qlbc

[Noir Angel]

Problems include: 

Small icons - 16x16 and 32x32 are relics. On high resolution and high DPI screens, those sizes don't work, they're too small.

Limited space - The amount of apps you can pin was limited by the height of your screen. Working on a small screen? You're out of luck in pinning apps to the menu. It didn't scroll either, so if you pinned more apps than could be shown, you had no way of accessing them.

Folders and subfolders - In this day and age, this behavior is undesirable. No one wants to spend time digging for apps. Apps shouldn't be hidden, especially behind nondescript manila folders.

No grouping options - It takes too much work to organize the menu to user needs. And outside of a select few, no one bothers with it.

No scalability - Speaks for itself.

No expandability -  The Start Menu can't be used with any other forms of input. In this day and age where multiple forms of input are the norm, you need something that can expand to accept different forms of user input. You need a UI that can adapt to user needs. The static desktop/Start Menu can't do that. The Start Screen can scale, and can expand to encompass different forms of input, which is what makes it a valuable addition to the Windows OS.  

 

All completely and totally irrelevant to anything but tablets. Apart from the thing about sub folders, which is simply your subjective opinion. I for one find it much more usable than simply flinging a cluster of icons at you on one screen. The problem is, the majority of Windows users are not using Windows on a tablet. It's simply nothing more than lazy and near sighted development.