Back to the Start: imagining a better Windows

[Dot Matrix]

Yes that is what I said.  Usually managers or leaders deal with customers personally.  But really, security training would not have changed from XP to 7 or 8.  Are you talking about training them the complexities of BitLocker (which employees should not be doing themselves)?  The complexities of managing UAC (which the IT department takes care of, not the employees)?  Teaching them what Data Execution Protection is?  These, just to name a few, are the new security features.  Are you saying employees should be taught these things?  Their heads will probably be spinning within one minute!

Since this all seems to be going right over your head, I worked at a retailer. We deal with customers all day long, not just management or leaders, but everyone. There were terminals set up throughout the building that all connect out.

Employees were trained on Office, Outlook, IE, and how to all use them safely and securely.

You can't just lock your users in, that just doesn't happen.

[xWhiplash]

Since this all seems to be going right over your head, I worked at a retailer. We deal with customers all day long, not just management or leaders, but everyone. There were terminals set up throughout the building that all connect out.

Employees were trained on Office, Outlook, IE, and how to all use them safely and securely.

You can't just lock your users in, that just doesn't happen.

 

Ah well that is not really training on OS security features like you said before.  When you say security features, I think of UAC, DEP, Code Integrity, BitLocker, and more.  Which I have never heard of employees being taught that.  If you are referring to Office, Outlook, and IE security, than the OS does not really matter then.  They are trained how to use that in Windows XP.  Office 2010 and IE 8 security is not different from XP to 7 other than the OS level features I listed before.  The "safe computing" training is what you are referring to.  That would not really change just because the OS is different.  Now upgrading to Office 2013 and IE 11 might require it again.  But that is still "safe computing" not "os security feature" training.  At least in my opinion :)

[Dadwen]

You can't just lock your users in, that just doesn't happen.

Worked for a few companies in the past that would not agree with that statement, they could and did big time.

[Dot Matrix]

Worked for a few companies in the past that would not agree with that statement, they could and did big time.

My school used to lock us in. That didn't last long when students found a way to click F1 for help, then launch IE. It never made sense either, since many needed to do research.

It doesn't make sense in an office environment either since, yes, employees do want to connect out, whether for downtime or connecting with customers. Connecting out is a big part of conducting business.

[Dadwen]

My school used to lock us in. That didn't last long when students found a way to click F1 for help, then launch IE. It never made sense either, since many needed to do research.

It doesn't make sense in an office environment either since, yes, employees do want to connect out, whether for downtime or connecting with customers. Connecting out is a big part of conducting business.

the School I work for the students had more freedom than the staff, but I've worked at a few Finance companies that had them locked hard core down.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Anything is better than what we have now, I had to explain and show 2 people how to use windows 8 on their new computer today. FML! Is all I could think after. I really want to know what Dot Matrix says to someone when showing them Windows 8 / 8.1  for the first time to make the charms bar look and sound useful on the desktop.

[Rickkins]

And yak, yak, yak, yak, yak. Did you ever read what I wrote above? What is Microsoft supposed to do? Not change a damn thing anymore because people have to learn new things? It hasn't stopped them before, why are you clamoring now as if this is something new?

There's ALWAYS training involved. There's ALWAYS something new to learn. That's how the upgrade game is played. No ifs ands or buts about it. Complaining about it isn't going to change that. Also don't even think about crying about jumping to another platform, because they do the same thing.

I hate to sound so cynical, but this nonsense of change needs to stop. It's not going away.

EDIT: And, yes, I do do support. And you know what? It takes two minutes to walk a user through the new Start Screen. A whole two minutes.

And there it is... the inevitable assertation that it is all "the people's" fault. The same tired tripe that attempts to blame 8's epic failure on people being too lazy to learn something new..,. or too incompetent. No blame whatsoever on microsoft for pushing out a crappy, ill conceived os that nobody wanted.

 

I bet they're really glad they listened nonsense like that.

8 was a failure.

8.1 was(is) a failure.

Anything short of a 100% retreat back to what we've been demanding all along will drive the final nail back into the coffin... Dot's opinion notwithstanding.

 

Keep in mind, they already tried the slight of hand with the start button in 8.1

How many were fooled...??? That's right... not one damned person.

[trooper11]

Its nice to see people trying new things, but lets face it, people don't want compromise.

Look at this thread. 8 is a failure, 8.1 is a failure, its all crap and it all has to go. That's what some people really think.

Clearly, to appease these users, MS just needs to re-release Windows 7. Everything about 8 goes against what they want and if MS adopted a start menu that had anything to do with metro, it would be rejected automatically.

So MS could start by just plugging in the Win 7 start menu. Then maybe Win 8.5 could completely remove all things Metro via options for power users. Basically, bring back features lost from 7 to the 8 desktop and remove anything not related to improving the traditional desktop experience.

[Dot Matrix]

Let them think 8 is a "failure." Many thought the same of Vista, but that didn't deter Microsoft from releasing 7. If all you want is "Windows 7," then use Windows 7. Windows 8 is not meant to be Windows 7, nor will it ever.

Don't hold your breath, Rickkens...

[Julius Caro]

I really like this, and I think it could work. 

IMO, windows 8/8.1 is not getting the traction it, umm, deserves, due mainly to two reasons:

- the desktop is not going to dissapear completely. OS X incorporated certain "iOS" aspects (the screen with all the installed apps, fullscreen apps that can be switched with gestures, notifications menu, etc) but it's still a desktop OS. the people that MAKE apps (for other platforms) will use the desktop, and the same goes for the graphic design people and certain enterprises. there's no other way around it. not everyone can replace their usage of computers with "immersive" apps that are more touch centric. and it is rather contradictory that modern apps push the horizontal scrolling thing, but in snap mode you constrain them horizontally. Basically, snap mode is not ideal for most use cases. 

 

- laptop input. basically, no windows vendor can beat how the macbook trackpads work on OS X. Period. the gestures are a huge productivity boost (OS X) , that if done correctly can actually improve the experience on windows 8 and help bridge the infamous "gap". but no, trackpads are still a complete mess.

 

 

microsoft aims their current iteration of windows to cover every possible scenario: tablets, hybrids, desktops with keyboard+mouse, laptop with keyboard and sucky trackpad.  Yet it doesn't excel at anything, and the metro experience gets in the way for those who REALLy do need the desktop.

 

 

I like these concepts because they basically improve the desktop experience while staying true to metro. IMO "hybrid" apps are the future, that can adapt themselves to whether they are desktop or "immersive". They'd just have to work on the API. 

[Rickkins]

Let them think 8 is a "failure." Many thought the same of Vista, but that didn't deter Microsoft from releasing 7. If all you want is "Windows 7," then use Windows 7. Windows 8 is not meant to be Windows 7, nor will it ever.

Don't hold your breath, Rickkens...

Not really a matter of "thinking"... 8/8.1 has the worst adoption rate and reputation of any windows release ever.

 

Oh, and if they released the adoption rate of strictly metro systems... well, I think everybody knows what those numbers would say.

 

I'm sorry Dot, I know how badly you wanted metro to fly. The vast majority of customers simply do not want metro on their pc's. Don't take it personally.

[Dot Matrix]

Not really a matter of "thinking"... 8/8.1 has the worst adoption rate and reputation of any windows release ever.

 

Oh, and if they released the adoption rate of strictly metro systems... well, I think everybody knows what those numbers would say.

 

I'm sorry Dot, I know how badly you wanted metro to fly. The vast majority of customers simply do not want metro on their pc's. Don't take it personally.

And do you have the research and resources available to back up that claim?

[trooper11]

Not really a matter of "thinking"... 8/8.1 has the worst adoption rate and reputation of any windows release ever.

Wow, it has a worse reputation than Vista or ME?

I had no idea it was that bad.

Well at least it went the way you wanted.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Just a few tidbits from an article:

 

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244455/Windows_8_uptake_needle_sticks_as_growth_stalls

 

 

Windows 8 remained far behind Windows 7 at the latter's 13-month mark. At that point, Windows 7 powered 21.7% of all Windows systems, and was still showing no sign of slowing customer adoption

 

http://bgr.com/2013/12/02/windows-7-windows-8-growth-comparison/

 

 

 

combined market share of Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 grew by only 0.05 percentage points in November. In contrast, Windows 7?s market share grew by 0.22 percentage points

 

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/microsoft-windows-7-pcs-sales/

 

 

 

Considering the slow Windows 8 adoption rates, it?s possible that Microsoft decided to extend the availability of Windows 7 to make up for Windows 8?s weak sales.

 

 

Many people hate the modern interface, even rumors of it going away on the next Windows phone.  Some people do not care about live tiles and would rather have the start menu.  Not entirely sure why some people are vehemently against the end user having a choice.

 

There is simply no reason why Microsoft can not give the end user an option.  I bet sales would move up drastically.

[Dot Matrix]

And Microsoft is reportedly developing a new "menu," but it won't be the menu from Windows 7. Judging by "Mini-Start," it'll be a mini start screen. 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

And Microsoft is reportedly developing a new "menu," but it won't be the menu from Windows 7. Judging by "Mini-Start," it'll be a mini start screen. 

 

Where did you see that "it won't be the menu from Windows 7"...source?  

 

Microsoft needs to bring back the start menu (Windows 7) to save their desktop sales.  

[AJerman]

Wow, it has a worse reputation than Vista or ME?

I had no idea it was that bad.

Well at least it went the way you wanted.

Worse than Bob!!! :laugh:

 

This concept is interesting. I've gone back to Windows and used Windows 8.1 after not really wanting to just to get the most out of a UEFI/SSD based system, and I've been mostly pleasantly impressed with the updates in 8.1 over 8, but I have the one reservation that I don't like that the start screen goes full screen and breaks your workflow. Granted, I typically just type the name of the app I want to run with both the start menu and the start screen, but popping up over everything is still a little annoying to me. A smaller version that still supports the modern styling would definitely be interesting to me. I think it would be ideal to have an option to use a full start screen, a mini start screen/menu like this concept, or a legacy start menu (especially for servers).

[Windows Nashville]

And do you have the research and resources available to back up that claim?

 

The ridiculously anemic market share for 8.0 and 8.1 tell us everything we need to know.  Metro has been a commercial disaster.  Time to move on ... and thank goodness, it looks like Microsoft finally is moving on.

[The Evil Overlord]

Someone mentioned consumer selfishness...

Well, that's the consumer market in a nutshell. I hate that consumers are being blamed for this, it has annoyed me a little.

 

It's my money. I earned it. I will spend it on what I want to spend it on, if I don't like something I don't buy it, not just win 8, but everything.

I think the consumer selfishness argument is wholly wrong, hell I wouldn't want to live in a nation that tells me I have to buy this, and go f**k myself.

Overall I hated 8 but I did try a couple of times, in my local pc world, to get along with it, for me it felt inferior whilst on desktop in a visual way to 7, and metro just confused me.

I loved the concept as it was a new approach, but that's all I though it was to me.

/rant over

[Dot Matrix]

Where did you see that "it won't be the menu from Windows 7"...source?  

 

Microsoft needs to bring back the start menu (Windows 7) to save their desktop sales.  

 

The menu is referred to as "Mini-Start" internally - https://www.neowin.net/news/start-menu-rumors-are-heating-up-currently-referred-to-as-mini-start-internally

 

It won't be the Windows 7 menu as the code was deprecated and removed. It was never kept in sync with the changes made in Windows 8, and isn't coming back.

[Dot Matrix]

The ridiculously anemic market share for 8.0 and 8.1 tell us everything we need to know.  Metro has been a commercial disaster.  Time to move on ... and thank goodness, it looks like Microsoft finally is moving on.

And how do you answer 100 million licenses sold? And where is Microsoft "moving on?" Where are they abandoning their "One Microsoft" direction?  

[PGHammer]

 

And how do you answer 100 million licenses sold? And where is Microsoft "moving on?" Where are they abandoning their "One Microsoft" direction?  

He isn't - and neither are all of the OTHER haters of the StartScreen or ModernUI.

They are looking at new-hardware (OEM) sales numbers, and squat-all else.

Nobody is saying that traditional-formfactor sales aren't down. However, look at what IS selling out on the OEM space in terms of Windows-based PCs - non-traditional formfactors. Convertible/adaptables, AIOs (with and without touch-screen support), tablets and slates (not alone RT-based) - stuff that either was below the waterline or didn't exist at all when Windows 7 launched.

Also there were quite a few upgrade licenses (both of 8 and 8.1) that got sold - for the understandable reason that either OS can run quite well on 7-era hardware, with little or no change whatever. (That is actually quite welcome during a recession - an upgrade OS that does not require new hardware.)

Enterprises buy traditional hardware - and they buy lots OF it. Enterprise purchasing was also markedly down during the Great Recession - and every OEM that sold into enterprises got whacked.

However, enterprise purchases of PCs are coming back up ; let's take a look at the numbers in a year, now that the Great Recession is (for now) done.

[LaP]

Anything is better than what we have now, I had to explain and show 2 people how to use windows 8 on their new computer today. FML! Is all I could think after. I really want to know what Dot Matrix says to someone when showing them Windows 8 / 8.1  for the first time to make the charms bar look and sound useful on the desktop.

He doesn't say anything. He offers them a glass of Kool aid.

[Arachno 1D]

Oops wrong. Post

[LaP]

Someone mentioned consumer selfishness...

Well, that's the consumer market in a nutshell. I hate that consumers are being blamed for this, it has annoyed me a little.

Yep the matter of the fact is consumers are the market. If consumers dont want your product then you failed and you have only you to blame and nobody else. It's true for all companies.