Ukraine was a playbook CIA coup d'

[Dick Montage]

how is Ukraine any different?

 

I think the argument is not Ukraine.  I believe it's the fact that whatever Zhivago posts attempts to be anti-western OPINION and seems to always indemnify Russia of any wrongdoing, ever.  It's hugely tiresome, and people are trying to suggest he selectively picks stories that further his stance.

Is it the fact the U.S. has aided revolutionaries, or, is it the fact that they are fascists?

 

You seem to have an issue with your keyboard.  When you type "opinion", it actually types "fact".

 

May wanna get that looked at...

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

I think the argument is not Ukraine.  I believe it's the fact that whatever Zhivago posts attempts to be anti-western OPINION and seems to always indemnify Russia of any wrongdoing, ever.  It's hugely tiresome, and people are trying to suggest he selectively picks stories that further his stance.

You seem to have an issue with your keyboard.  When you type "opinion", it actually types "fact".

 

May wanna get that looked at...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

 

The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: ??????-??????????? ?????? ???????), a reference to National Socialism. Today Svoboda acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum, and has also been described as far-right, fascistic or anti-semitic.

 

...

 

Svoboda has been described as an anti-Semitic and sometimes a Neo-Nazi party by international newspapers, organizations that monitor hate speech, Jewish organizations

 

 

The Wolfsangel, Svoboda's first party logo (1991?2003).

 

Their nazi agenda is also evident in their policies.

 

p.s. oh, and it's also best buddies with BNP.

 

:sleep:

[Vykranth]

and this is what i mean. why do you automatically go to such extremes in your "ridiculous" examples? Zhivago is talking about a government overthrowing another, not freemasons or Chtulu.

 

if i said "Iran-Contra", would you say that's a nutter conspiracy theory? b/c our government now openly admits that they overthrew the Iranian government. How is this possible overthrowing in Ukraine any different? The US Govt has its talons in several other affairs recently too, like Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan, Mali... how is Ukraine any different?

 

Well, my question is 'what would be the goal, the purpose of the US and most importantly the benefits the US would gain?

- Iran-Contra: the goal was to get rid of a communist government in Nicaragua. In the frame of the cold war, it made sense.

- Lybia: Colonel Khadafi, sworn enemy of the US, reponsible of the Lockerbie bombings?

- Yemen/Pakistan: Al Quaeda heavens: it make sense in the frame of the war on terror

 

I am going to be more puzzled in your list by Mali: what would be the ultimate goal and benefit of a destabilization of Mali for the US? If you have a reason, I am interested to read it because I cannot find or figure one out

 

And so Ukraine. tell me why would the US would trigger a government overthrown on Ukraine: the corruption and the actions of former president V. Ianoukovich have been there. it is not the US who created the corruption there. It is not the US that fire on the protesters in Kiev. It is not the US that put Timochenko in prison. Ianoukovich did it by himself.

 

Which brings to the other side? what is there to gain for the US? A new cold war? a new bi polarisation of the countries US block vs Russian block? To me, this does not make sense: there is much more to lose with a cold war for both sides.

[mudslag]

Vago reminds me of this guy...

 

 

[Skiver Veteran]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

 

The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: ??????-??????????? ?????? ???????), a reference to National Socialism. Today Svoboda acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum, and has also been described as far-right, fascistic or anti-semitic.

 

...

 

Svoboda has been described as an anti-Semitic and sometimes a Neo-Nazi party by international newspapers, organizations that monitor hate speech, Jewish organizations

 

<snip>

 

The Wolfsangel, Svoboda's first party logo (1991?2003).

 

Their nazi agenda is also evident in their policies.

 

p.s. oh, and it's also best buddies with BNP.

 

:sleep:

 

I literally have no idea what this has to do with this topic? What does this party have to do with the CIA or the BNP, why is the BNP anything to do with Ukraine, Russia, America or the CIA?

[Dick Montage]

Let me requote you:

 

Is it the fact the U.S. has aided revolutionaries, or, is it the fact that they are fascists?

 

The phrasing you have used put the onus of "they" onto the US.  As such, you have suggested that it is "fact" that "the U.S." "are fascists".

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

Let me requote you:

 

The phrasing you have used put the onus of "they" onto the US.  As such, you have suggested that it is "fact" that "the U.S." "are fascists".

 

Duly noted. Thanks. The question has been edited.

[compl3x]

I literally have no idea what this has to do with this topic? What does this party have to do with the CIA or the BNP, why is the BNP anything to do with Ukraine, Russia, America or the CIA?

 

 

I can't work this out either. What evidence is there that the U.S. or any other Western Nation is collaborating with Svoboda? Svoboda does indeed seem to be a hard right/neo-Nazi party but what proof is there that they are being supported by the U.S.? It's not good enough to say "The U.S. has aided some revolutionaries around the world in the past, therefore, they are aiding this group."

 

 

if i said "Iran-Contra", would you say that's a nutter conspiracy theory? b/c our government now openly admits that they overthrew the Iranian government. How is this possible overthrowing in Ukraine any different?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Iran-Contra was the U.S. overthrowing Iran. It was selling weapons to them and then giving the proceeds to Nicaraguan rebels. The Iranian revolution happened before Iran contra. But it is late and maybe I am confusing my dates. Anyway...

 

Iran-Contra was totally exposed. If someone told me about their Iran-Contra theory without providing any evidence I'd say "OK. Where is the evidence?" if they had none, I would have to say "Sorry, if you have no evidence; you have no case."

 

If they said "here is all of my irrefutable, well source evidence" I would say "Holy ####! What a story! You've well and truly convinced me!"

 

People can assert anything they like, but unless you have evidence to support your claims all you have is a story. If your story is particularly sensational then your evidence needs to be even more incredible. You can't just quote random internet journalists who are sympathetic to your idea.

 

 

In short: evidence, evidence, evidence.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

How and why the U.S. government aided a coup led by neo-Nazis in Ukraine

Why U.S. imperialism continues to target Russia

 

Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the Neo-Nazi Svoboda party. Fascists now control key posts in the government, including over the armed forces

 

The people of the United States are being deliberately misled and misinformed about the leading role played by the U.S. State Department, intelligence agencies and neoconservative leaders in bringing neo-Nazis to power in Ukraine.

The same neoconservative politicians and strategists that drove the country to war against Iraq in 2003, against Libya in 2011 and nearly against Syria in 2013 have been neck-deep in a protracted regime change effort in Ukraine as part of a larger geo-strategic struggle against Russia. The fact that they have worked hand in glove with armed neo-Nazis in Ukraine?with Sen. John McCain and Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland literally joining the protests?speaks volumes about the political nature of the events.

 

Sen. John McCain in Kyiv, Ukraine, alongside neo-Nazi leader Tyahnybok, declares his support for the Maidan movement

The Maidan protest movement was launched in Kiev in November 2013 when Ukrainian President Yanukovych rejected a European Union economic plan that would have imposed a harsh austerity regime on Ukraine as the price for admission into the economic sphere dominated by German banks. The U.S. and E.U.-backed street protests, supported most fervently by neoconservative elements inside and outside the Obama administration, began when Yanukovych instead accepted a $15 billion loan from Russia and an economic plan that did not require austerity measures but did include discounted prices for Russian natural gas.

 

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, a neoconservative, smiles with Ukrainian fascist leaders

 

Another case of imperialist-backed regime change ? this time with neo-Nazis

The U.S. government has engineered, financed and fully supported a classic coup d'?tat that overthrew a corrupt but democratically elected government in Ukraine. Joining in the destabilization of the Ukrainian government were Germany, France, Britain and other NATO powers.

The U.S. State Department funds an international network of non-governmental organizations and media outlets that are used to create political opposition and conduct regime change against targeted countries from Venezuela to Bolivia to Syria to Ukraine and other countries. A principal vehicle for these U.S. operations is the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

A recent article by Robert Parry reports: ?NED, a $100 million-a-year agency created by the Reagan administration in 1983 to promote political action and psychological warfare against targeted states, lists 65 projects that it supports financially inside Ukraine, including training activists, supporting ?journalists? and promoting business groups, effectively creating a full-service structure primed and ready to destabilize a government in the name of promoting ?democracy.??

The new coup-led government was selected by a rump session of the parliament when many elected members could not show up to vote for fear of physical attack. It is filled with fascist and semi-fascist forces, as well as powerful billionaire oligarchs. The fascist forces promote hatred toward Russians, Jews, Poles and other minorities.

During the past year these forces have been vandalizing the anti-fascist monuments and memorials that honor the Ukrainian and other Soviet military veterans who gave their lives to defeat Nazism in World War II. The new coup government immediately initiated laws to ban the Communist Party of Ukraine as many of its offices were torched around the country. The new government also banned the use of Russian, Hungarian, Romanian, Greek, Tatar and others as officially recognized minority languages.

The Maidan movement took shape in the form of street protests in November 2013 demanding that the now toppled government of Yanukovych sign onto an agreement that would ?integrate? Ukraine into the economic sphere of influence of Germany and the other E.U. countries.

The Maidan movement started as a broad-based politically eclectic mix of fascist, centrist and some leftist organizations. The fascist and semi-fascist organizations, specifically the armed wings of the Svoboda Party and Right Sector, became the dominant political force as the protest movement was sustained over several months. Both Svoboda and Right Sector use the iconography of the pro-Nazi Ukrainians who fought with Hitler?s divisions in the invasion of the Soviet Union and carried out massacres of Jews, Poles and communists. After the ouster of Yanukovych, Svoboda Party  leaders were   appointed to the deputy prime minister position ? now held by a notorious anti-woman bigot ? and  four other ministries. A founder of the Social-National Party, which became Svoboda, is now Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council, which controls Ukraine?s armed forces, and his top deputy is from the Right Sector.

Imperialist Strategy toward the former Soviet Republics

The right-wing coup government in Ukraine is trying to integrate the country into an E.U./IMF-sponsored austerity regime that will lead to the deep impoverishment of the Ukrainian working classes. The tremendous resources of Ukraine are seen as a huge prize for the enrichment of the biggest banks and corporations in Western Europe and the United States. These resources include major deposits of coal, iron ore, manganese, nickel and uranium. It holds the largest sulfur and second-largest mercury reserves in the world, and vast, rich agricultural lands and forests.  In addition, Ukraine has large-scale heavy industry, particularly in the eastern part of the country.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union most of the former socialist bloc countries of Central and Eastern Europe have been integrated into a NATO and E.U. sphere of influence. Of the 28 member nations of the E.U., 22 so far have been incorporated into NATO.

Western imperialism has targeted all the countries in Eastern Europe and the other non-Russian former Soviet republics, including Ukraine, for incorporation into a U.S. and NATO-led sphere of influence. Their strategy is to exploit the land, labor and resources of the targeted countries, while containing and weakening Russia economically and militarily.

The Crimea and Russia

The Crimean Peninsula was historically an important part of Russia. In 1954, Crimea was transferred as an administrative unit in the Soviet Union from the Russian Republic to Ukraine but both were part of one country ? the Soviet Union. The administrative transfer of the Crimea had little significance and no geo-strategic significance until the counter-revolutionary overthrow of the Soviet Union in 1991. Then, all of Ukraine and the Crimea became a primary target for absorption by the U.S. and NATO powers into their sphere of influence. This was a great threat to Russia. The Crimea was the headquarters for the Soviet Black Sea Naval Base which became the Russian Black Sea Naval base after 1991.

The imperialist governments of the world have united to denounce and condemn the Russian Federation?s decision to send military forces into the Crimea in the aftermath of the semi-fascist coup that threatens millions of ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and threatens to turn all of Ukraine into a NATO staging ground against Russia. Russia denies that the forces deployed in the Crimea are Russian special forces, suggesting that they are Russian-trained local defense forces working in tandem with Crimea?s established security personnel. Crimea?s governor says he is coordinating with the Russian troops at the Sevastopol base on security matters.

Russia today no longer has a socialist government, nor does it operate according to a socialist planned economy based on publicly-owned property. The Russian capitalist class has its own narrow economic interests and the Russian government protects those interests.

But Russia is not part of the small club of imperialist countries ? the former colonizers of Asia, Africa and Latin America who continue to control the world financial system, hold a preponderance of military and political power in global affairs, and stage interventions and regime change efforts as they please.

In fact, Russia is routinely targeted by this Western imperialist club because it functions, due to its size and military power, as an obstacle to their complete hegemonic control over the former Soviet Republics. It also presents itself as a military, economic and diplomatic counter-weight in other critical areas, especially in the Middle East and Asia, not to mention at the United Nations where it maintains a veto within the Security Council.

It is completely understandable that Russia would project a show of force in Crimea, not as a premeditated plan of aggression but rather as a defensive counter-move to the dynamic offensive of Western imperialism and the pro-Western, fascist gang that seized the state power in Ukraine.

The pro-Russian military presence has been welcomed by huge numbers of people in Ukraine, both in the south and eastern regions of the country, where the coup government lacks legitimacy and is seen as a grave danger. Ukrainian civilians in these areas have been forming their own security blockades defending government buildings and anti-fascist monuments from being attacked by ultra-right nationalists. The presence of the pro-Russian military forces has been a relief to many targeted by the ascending fascist forces.

War-mongers like John Kerry and John McCain condemn Russia for ?aggression? when it defensively acts to blunt the NATO offensive against Ukraine and Russia. Yet these very figures, and others of their ilk,  provoked this crisis. They worked closely with the most disgusting neo-Nazi forces in toppling a democratically-elected government in a large country that exists on Russia?s border. The hypocrisy of their rhetoric is hard to match. These were the cheerleaders for the massive bombing of Libya in 2011, the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan and the massive aerial bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. Yet, today, they feign concern over Ukraine?s sovereignty. No one should be deceived.

As for German imperialism, this constitutes the third attempt to forcibly swallow up Ukraine into their sphere of influence. The German army annexed Ukraine from Russia in 1918. Ukraine only regained its sovereignty when the German war effort collapsed in 1918. But 23 years later, Nazi Germany invaded again. Twenty-seven million Soviet citizens died, including millions in Ukraine. Hitler and the German ruling class wanted Ukraine to be transformed into a slave society and colony. Because of Russian, Ukrainian and Soviet heroism, the plans of German imperialism were thwarted. But the prize of incorporating Ukraine into a zone for super-profits for German, U.S. and other imperialist bankers and industrialists has always remained a fixed objective.

Washington and its allies have thus far threatened Russia with ?sanctions? and ?costs.? But economic sanctions are in fact warfare. There is a very real danger that the current crisis could escalate into a military war?a war with unforeseeable consequences?were there to be a U.S.-NATO military intervention.  The anti-war movement and all progressive people should stand against any U.S. intervention in Ukraine, refuse to join the U.S.-NATO distortion and propaganda campaign, and demand an immediate end to U.S.-EU support for fascist forces in Ukraine.
 

[Athernar]

No, the whole thing was a blatant KGB false-flag to provide the excuses for the Russian imperialist neo-Nazi dictatorship to annex Crimea.

 

Just like how the KGB murdered Alexander Litvinenko with Polonium-210 on Putin's orders.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

Just like how the KGB murdered Alexander Litvinenko with Polonium-210 on Putin's orders.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/alexander-litvinenko-government-refuses-calls-for-public-inquiry-into-death-8705570.html

 

It's more likely that Berezovskiy or MI6 had Litvinenko killed.

[Athernar]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/alexander-litvinenko-government-refuses-calls-for-public-inquiry-into-death-8705570.html

 

It's more likely that Berezovskiy or MI6 had Litvinenko killed.

 

No, I think it's far more likely that the guy Russia refuses to extradite and was trailing traces of Polonium-210 everywhere behind him was behind it.

 

Oh yeah, he's a "politician" in dictator Putin's phony-government too, how convenient.

 

So strange how all these guys have a history in the KGB too, it MUST be a coincidence. Not a KGB shadow-government controlling a puppet at all.

[blerk]

I really am rather impressed by the American government, though I must also feel sorry for them. Ukraine, Mali, Syria, Iraq, etc etc etc. They apparently are very capable of playing the long game, slowly reeling in these errant backwards countries, only to be foiled at the last moment. So many years worth of brilliant strategic and tactical decisions and operations gone to waste. 

 

 

 

/s

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

I see, so, no one has actually bothered to answer my question...

 

As Putin said: "There can only be one assessment: this was an anti-constitutional takeover, an armed seizure of power. Does anyone question this? Nobody does."

 

...

 

America?s Advancing Empire: Putsch, Pillage and Duplicity

The Obama regime, in coordination with its allies and proxies, has re-launched a virulent world-wide campaign to destroy independent governments, encircle and ultimately, undermine global competitors, and establish a new US ? EU centered world order.

We will proceed by identifying the recent ?cycles? of US empire-building; the advances and retreats; the methods and strategies; the results and perspectives.  Our main focus is on the imperial dynamics driving the US toward greater military confrontations, up to and including conditions which can lead to a world war.

 

Continued...

Russia or America: Who Is the Real Aggressor?

As the crisis in Ukraine continues to perpetuate, one aspect that has been particularly striking is the language used by the Western media and politicians to describe Russia and its President, Vladimir Putin.

The country and its leader have been branded as aggressors, invaders, empire builders and have even been compared to Nazi Germany. In the field of psychology, there is a term to describe a defence mechanism ? projection, which is characterised by projecting unwanted feelings onto other people. Perhaps, the US and its Western allies are experiencing a surge of projection, as the way they have been describing Russia is not only incorrect, but is also an appropriate way to describe the Western powers.

 

Continued...

[FloatingFatMan]

I see, so, no one has actually bothered to answer my question...

 

As Putin said: "There can only be one assessment: this was an anti-constitutional takeover, an armed seizure of power. Does anyone question this? Nobody does."

 

 

It was effectively a revolution, these things tend to be armed seizures of power.

 

However, it was a revolution by the Ukrainian people.  Whilst the US may have had some involvement somewhere, just like Russia has; to lay the blame entirely on the USA's feet is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst.

 

If we're going to play the blame game, tell me why Russia has troops in Crimea.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

It was effectively a revolution, these things tend to be armed seizures of power.

 

However, it was a revolution by the Ukrainian people.  Whilst the US may have had some involvement somewhere, just like Russia has; to lay the blame entirely on the USA's feet is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst.

 

If we're going to play the blame game, tell me why Russia has troops in Crimea.

 

They have been there for at least the last 150 years.

 

And the troops were mobilized so that not a single sniper or mob would approach the region stealthily as they did in Kiev.

 

Did the West expect Russia to sit idly when they opened a can of worms at out border? That was a major miscalculation on their part.

[FloatingFatMan]

They have been there for at least the last 150 years.

 

And the troops were mobilized so that not a single sniper or mob would approach the region stealthily as they did in Kiev.

 

I'm not talking about those in their military installation, which is technically considered Russian territory. I'm talking about those that have illegally taken control of various installations.

 

Did the West expect Russia to sit idly when they opened a can of worms at out border? That was a major miscalculation on their part.#

 

So far, the only evidence of Western interference is that phone call where they're clearly backing a specific politician.  A stupid thing to do, yes. but nothing like the sort of interference you're claiming, and nowhere near the level of interference Russia is currently committing.

 

But of course, to you, the sun shines out of Putin's poop hole, and he can do no wrong, right?

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

 I'm talking about those that have illegally taken control of various installations.

 

If anti-Russian people can capture government buildings in Kiev why do you think that pro-Russian people, ordinary people can't do the same in Crimea?

 

You believe it was a peoples' revolution after all. In Crimea, what we witnessed was a counter-revolution.

[FloatingFatMan]

It's not a counter-revolution when said "counter revolutionaries" aren't even Ukrainians.

 

It's a foreign invading army, nothing less.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

It's not a counter-revolution when said "counter revolutionaries" aren't even Ukrainians.

 

It's a foreign invading army, nothing less.

 

Even IF it were so, the west has no moral ground to criticize Russia when it comes to foreign interventions.

[FloatingFatMan]

Even IF it were so, the west has no moral ground to criticize Russia when it comes to foreign interventions.

 

Sure, but this isn't about the west this time, it's about Russia. The west has received plenty of very well deserved criticism over its actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will continue to receive plenty more; but that's not what this topic is about.  Do try to stay on topic, Zhiv.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

Sure, but this isn't about the west this time, it's about Russia. The west has received plenty of very well deserved criticism over its actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will continue to receive plenty more; but that's not what this topic is about.  Do try to stay on topic, Zhiv.

 

Contrary to the western narrative of a Russian aggression, her actions are reactionary and defensive in nature. And no one has died as a result of this "occupation" as opposed to the imperial operations of the West carried out in other countries.

[FloatingFatMan]

It doesn't really matter WHO it is; when one country sends soldiers into another without invitation, that is an invasion.

 

Russia has invaded the Ukraine, deal with it.  Their reasons for doing so are just as made up as USA/UK's reasons for invading Iraq, and just as illegal.  They're just seizing on an opportunity to grab back some territory they gave up 60+ years ago.

[Athernar]

It doesn't really matter WHO it is; when one country sends soldiers into another without invitation, that is an invasion.

 

Russia has invaded the Ukraine, deal with it.  Their reasons for doing so are just as made up as USA/UK's reasons for invading Iraq, and just as illegal.  They're just seizing on an opportunity to grab back some territory they gave up 60+ years ago.

 

And finish the ethnic cleansing of the Crimean Tatars.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

It doesn't really matter WHO it is; when one country sends soldiers into another without invitation, that is an invasion.

 

Except Yanukovich actually asked Russia to intervene.