The Great Modern UI Debate Thread

By Ian S.
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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171 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you keep The Modern UI and UX in Windows 10?

    • Yes
      107
    • No
      64

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Grand Master

f0rk_b0mb

Posted
Posted

New screen showing more Modern UI 2.0 and Spartan, not sure if I like the new icon design style.

 

 

<snip>

 

I love the black though, can't wait to see the file explorer. Hope the end result is all of this and not some Frankenstein between the Windows 7/8 desktop UI and this.

 

I'm not sure if I like the white icons on the taskbar. They're...a little too minimalistic. On topic, I like IE's new design! I would personally remove the OneNote, Bookmark, and share icon for less distractions. 

Enthusiast

SekaiStory

Posted
Posted

Agreed. Also very excited about Spartan and File Explorer.

BTW is that Fang from FF XIII in your avatar? :)

Yes  :) (Although I'm more into FFXV now instead of XIII. :)

 

Need to see more before I take that screenshot as legit, no buildmark, missing gaps. "Ask me anything" sounds weird too. It was "Search the Web and Windows" before

Proficient

Jarrichvdv

Posted
Posted

Yes  :) (Although I'm more into FFXV now instead of XIII. :)

 

Need to see more before I take that screenshot as legit, no buildmark, missing gaps. "Ask me anything" sounds weird too. It was "Search the Web and Windows" before

+1 for Final Fantasy love.

On-topic: agreed, also the icon set looks like a *really* drastic change from what we have now... I don't think it'll fit in with the boatload of win32 apps, most of them having ugly icons.

Grand Master

Noir Angel

Posted
Posted

It still sounds to me that you are arguing in favor of complacency - right or wrong?

 

It still sounds to me as if you're arguing that something being new automatically makes it better and worthy of blind acceptance from users.

  • runningnak3d
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Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

It still sounds to me as if you're arguing that something being new automatically makes it better and worthy of blind acceptance from users.

The thing with "new", is that you're never going to have a 1:1 replacement of the "old". Things deprecate, and fall out of use. User habits change, etc. People aren't interacting with computers today as we did when much of what makes Windows, Windows was developed. We live in an interconnected, and always on world that is demanding more, and driving new habits, ideas, etc.

It's like going from mainframes and terminals, to desktop PCs. Now we're moving away from desktops to mobile devices.

Grand Master

Michael Scrip

Posted
Posted

The thing with "new", is that you're never going to have a 1:1 replacement of the "old". Things deprecate, and fall out of use. User habits change, etc. People aren't interacting with computers today as we did when much of what makes Windows, Windows was developed. We live in an interconnected, and always on world that is demanding more, and driving new habits, ideas, etc.

It's like going from mainframes and terminals, to desktop PCs. Now we're moving away from desktops to mobile devices.

But there are lots of people who are using Windows 8 on the same desktop-class machines that they were running Windows 7 on.  And using the same applications in the same manner too. 

 

Their habits haven't changed. Things aren't falling out of use.  They are interacting with their computers the same way they always have.  There are tons of laptops being announced at CES right now... but they don't look that much different than the laptops from 5 years ago.  And people will use those laptops the same way they always have. 

 

Even with the rise in tablets... regular ol' PCs are still being used. Heavily.

Grand Master

Noir Angel

Posted
Posted

The thing with "new", is that you're never going to have a 1:1 replacement of the "old". Things deprecate, and fall out of use. User habits change, etc. People aren't interacting with computers today as we did when much of what makes Windows, Windows was developed. We live in an interconnected, and always on world that is demanding more, and driving new habits, ideas, etc.

It's like going from mainframes and terminals, to desktop PCs. Now we're moving away from desktops to mobile devices.

 

And the thing is that making change for the sake of change and bastardising results in product compromises that make your product crappy to use on all platforms, alienating users, and creating a horribly weird mix of environments that has no place on a desktop computer.

 

I really couldn't give two hoots about a tablet, I don't care if Microsoft sell 100 billion tablets, I still don't want tablet interfaces on a desktop product. A simple idea I would say.

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Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

But there are lots of people who are using Windows 8 on the same desktop-class machines that they were running Windows 7 on.  And using the same applications in the same manner too. 

 

Their habits haven't changed. Things aren't falling out of use.  They are interacting with their computers the same way they always have.  There are tons of laptops being announced at CES right now... but they don't look that much different than the laptops from 5 years ago.  And people will use those laptops the same way they always have. 

 

Even with the rise in tablets... regular ol' PCs are still being used. Heavily.

I don't believe that to be correct. Their habits *are* changing, the KB+M might not be, but user habits definitely *are*. People are increasingly mobile, and not wishing to sit behind desks anymore. I have users who I support who don't even know what an Ethernet cable is, or why their screens aren't responding to their finger. I have users who call up asking to see if they can trade desktops for laptops. Etc. The company I support is getting ready to deploy iPads en masse, but has yet to replace their aging desktops.

 

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

Grand Master

Jim K Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted

I don't believe that to be correct. Their habits *are* changing, the KB+M might not be, but user habits definitely *are*. People are increasingly mobile, and not wishing to sit behind desks anymore. I have users who I support who don't even know what an Ethernet cable is, or why their screens aren't responding to their finger. I have users who call up asking to see if they can trade desktops for laptops. Etc. The company I support is getting ready to deploy iPads en masse, but has yet to replace their aging desktops.

 

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

 

Not entirely sure what your mobile rant has to do with the desktop?  I love my android...yet I would never want to use that interface on my desktop/notebook. It is great to operate with one hand but I would despise it using standard keyboard/mouse.  I do not want to use a touchscreen for either a notebook or a desktop (basically I do not want fingerprints all over my screen).  This is different than the android which I can simply rub against my pant leg to remove the fingerprints (hard to do with a notebook).  Also, I do not want a start menu on the android (see where I'm going...different devices/different ways to use them).

 

So, habits, on the desktops are not really changing.  How people are receiving/distributing information is.  How people interact with the various devices are not changing (aside from phones going from physical buttons to touchscreens and voice becoming smarter).  People still use desktops primarily with kb/mouse and touch with tablets/phones.  The operating system should reflect those two differences, which is why the start menu (apparently) will be default on 10's desktop.  As Michael Crip pointed out, people are "interacting with their computers the same way".  Don't confuse interacting with computers as the same as the method of receiving/distributing information and trying to melt the UI into one.  It will not work as Microsoft found out with Windows 8x.

Grand Master

Michael Scrip

Posted
Posted

I don't believe that to be correct. Their habits *are* changing, the KB+M might not be, but user habits definitely *are*. People are increasingly mobile, and not wishing to sit behind desks anymore. I have users who I support who don't even know what an Ethernet cable is, or why their screens aren't responding to their finger. I have users who call up asking to see if they can trade desktops for laptops. Etc. The company I support is getting ready to deploy iPads en masse, but has yet to replace their aging desktops.

 

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

I didn't mean "desktop" as in tower+monitor.

 

I meant "desktop" as in traditional desktop programs. Regular ol' PC programs that people have used for years... and use in the same manner. (mouse/keyboard)

 

The "old" UI paradigm is still being used in "old" software... even though a "new" UI paradigm was presented in Windows 8.

 

That's what I meant by user habits not changing.

Grand Master

Noir Angel

Posted
Posted

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

 

Yeah. So in slapping a tablet UI on a desktop product, Microsoft not only create a product that feels wrong on a desktop, it also wastes around 10 gigs of your tablet's storage, when Android (without UI skins) takes a few hundred megabytes and even iOS less than 2 gigs. Slow clap for Microsoft everyone!

  • runningnak3d
  • Like 1
Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

Yeah. So in slapping a tablet UI on a desktop product, Microsoft not only create a product that feels wrong on a desktop, it also wastes around 10 gigs of your tablet's storage, when Android (without UI skins) takes a few hundred megabytes and even iOS less than 2 gigs. Slow clap for Microsoft everyone!

Windows 10 on tablets is removing the desktop legacy, theoretically freeing up storage space.

Grand Master

Max Norris

Posted
Posted

Yeah. So in slapping a tablet UI on a desktop product, Microsoft not only create a product that feels wrong on a desktop, it also wastes around 10 gigs of your tablet's storage, when Android (without UI skins) takes a few hundred megabytes and even iOS less than 2 gigs. Slow clap for Microsoft everyone!

You honestly can't compare the size of a desktop OS to one that was designed for a phone, that's just silly. Of course it's going to be smaller. The modern stuff doesn't even enter into it, pick an older version of Windows, or hell another desktop entirely like KDE or something.
Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

I didn't mean "desktop" as in tower+monitor.

 

I meant "desktop" as in traditional desktop programs. Regular ol' PC programs that people have used for years... and use in the same manner. (mouse/keyboard)

 

The "old" UI paradigm is still being used in "old" software... even though a "new" UI paradigm was presented in Windows 8.

 

That's what I meant by user habits not changing.

Even "regular old" desktop software is changing. Look at Office, look at our browsers, etc. Much of this stuff is cloud based now.

Grand Master

Michael Scrip

Posted
Posted

Even "regular old" desktop software is changing. Look at Office, look at our browsers, etc. Much of this stuff is cloud based now.

I guess I'm not following.... what does being "cloud-based" have to do with UI ?

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

But there are lots of people who are using Windows 8 on the same desktop-class machines that they were running Windows 7 on.  And using the same applications in the same manner too. 

 

Their habits haven't changed. Things aren't falling out of use.  They are interacting with their computers the same way they always have.  There are tons of laptops being announced at CES right now... but they don't look that much different than the laptops from 5 years ago.  And people will use those laptops the same way they always have. 

 

Even with the rise in tablets... regular ol' PCs are still being used. Heavily.

Michael,  I never denied that - both my test PCs are Vista-era hardware (desktop and notebook- with absolutely no touch support).

 

However, the very fact that I use ModernUI - on both - sans any bringbacks or other hacks - means that ModernUI is certainly usable without them.  While folks have had issues (which is something I didn't deny would happen), it's still a matter of personal preference - and nothing else.

 

I have absolutely nothing against folks having different personal preferences than I do; however, I certainly DO resent the very idea that I have to give up mine so they can have theirs, especially since the third parties stepped up to create those very same bringbacks (that are being thrown under the bus, and largely without cause). I don't use them - however, I don't hate them.

 

What really is driving the anti-Modern side screwball is the thought that ModernUI could actually be useful to a mouse user.  They thought they had ModernUI all nicely pigeonholed - and here I come with a solid case for using ModernUI with a mouse or other pointing device.  Is it my fault that I actually dared to actually look at ModernUI outside of the box they tried to put it into?  (After all, I had no choice - I DON'T have touch support.  If I was going to actually give ModernUI a fair evaluation, I had to use what I had - mice and trackpads.  Surprise - they work not only just fine, but they are easier to use in a lot of cases than some Win32 (as in desktop) applications - and especially on my notebook.)

 

What is happening with Office is the same thing that originally happened with WordPerfect.  WordPerfect was one of the earliest word-processing programs (it is, in point of fact, older than Microsoft itself, let alone Word).  It started off on mainframe computers - and specifically those from IBM.  (It is still available for IBM's mainframes, in addition to every OS under the moon, let alone the sun - including Android and iOS.)  It's the same trend - no application is immune.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

I guess I'm not following.... what does being "cloud-based" have to do with UI ?

The UI used by cloud-based applications is NOT the same as their desktop counterparts - how much similarity is there between Outlook and Outlook.com, for example?  However, despite those differences, there is, quite literally, nothing preventing both applications from being usable on the same operating system.  Different platforms no more imply a different OS than a different UI does - after all, how many different application UIs exist merely in terms of Win32 applications?  The platform no longer decides the UI - in a multiplatform era, how often does the OS decide the UI?

Mentor

DeadEndAccount

Posted
Posted

I didn't mean "desktop" as in tower+monitor.

 

I meant "desktop" as in traditional desktop programs. Regular ol' PC programs that people have used for years... and use in the same manner. (mouse/keyboard)

 

The "old" UI paradigm is still being used in "old" software... even though a "new" UI paradigm was presented in Windows 8.

 

That's what I meant by user habits not changing.

 

What was shown in Windows 8 was a partial glimpse into the future - what we see in Windows 10 is the complete WinRT stack on offer; full immersive interfaces and the ability to adapt when in windowed mode. I'd need to have a look but through one of the developer forums on Microsoft's website because a couple of years ago I remember reading a question asked about using WinRT in desktop applications - the reply given was pretty opaque but given that what we see in Windows 10 the idea of having windowed applications had been planned for quite some time with Windows 8 providing WinRT to encourage development for Windows RT and Windows Phone devices and Windows 10 finishing off WinRT to encourage developers to target both and have an adaptable front end. I don't things are changing radically given that most of the changes I've seen have been mainly under the hood to encourage developers to think beyond the desktop and those changes are bubbling up to the top with the interface becoming refined rather than a radical departure.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

Oh well I can't say I've done much in the way of skinning Windows, so I don't really know much about what roadblocks have been placed. 

 

 

 

When people are talking about 'desktop' in a discussion about ModernUI and Windows, I generally assume they mean the desktop = everything not Modern. The way you seem to be talking about it, I get the impression that you are talking specifically about the desktop screen, but then you talk about "desktop applications". Could you enlighten a confused soul as to whether you mean 'everything not metro' or 'just the desktop' desktop? :p

 

On the latter topic - multiple desktops natively in Windows. Hallelujah. That right there is a big advancement. 

I'm referring to the non-modernized (legacy) parts  of the desktop UX - applications and all.  The critics of ModernUI and MDL are defending Win32 applications like they are under siege; however, given that they run within ModernUI just fine - and that MDL can, indeed, be used with non-RT applications (Office and Visual Studio are the biggest examples), that may be just a BIT overblown.

 

My problem with the *classic desktop* is that development in terms of non-gaming software in that same space has become largely moribund (going back to Windows 7, or even Vista, honestly) - what was the last major Windows desktop application that was NOT an improvement over something that already existed?  (Sadly, I can't include Waterfox - or most x64 software - in the "new" category, as it's a recode of Firefox (as is most x64 software itself being recoded versions of x32 software).)

 

That could be, however, the biggest complaint ABOUT ModernUI - next to it, most Win32-based applications look "dated".  If that's the complaint, then it very much IS aesthetics - not functionality.  (However, was that not also a rather large complaint about Luna and Royale (the major UIs of the XP era) in XP and the subversions thereof?) 

Explorer

fbsduser

Posted
Posted

right now I'm using Deepin and FreeBSD because I like the sheer customizability of those OS's which is something Windows WILL NEVER HAVE. Right now Windows 8/8.1 have this ugly, flat, monotone and dull "MODERN" UI which I don't like because it's too flat and from what I saw Windows 10 will have the same or worse flatness. I have decided to not use Windows in any of my personal systems any more.

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Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

right now I'm using Deepin and FreeBSD because I like the sheer customizability of those OS's which is something Windows WILL NEVER HAVE. Right now Windows 8/8.1 have this ugly, flat, monotone and dull "MODERN" UI which I don't like because it's too flat and from what I saw Windows 10 will have the same or worse flatness. I have decided to not use Windows in any of my personal systems any more.

Please - you honestly believe that?

The very reason you made the choice you did (and especially FreeBSD) likely has more to do with LACK of adaptability (and especially security, which has historically been a BSD strength) and that no BSD supports touch (yet).

 

The touch anathema I REALLY don't get, as there is exactly NO case that touch interferes with non-touch software.  (None.  Not in any OS - let alone Windows.)

 

Aesthetics is one thing - however, now I sense nothing less than desperation setting in.  PC sales are up - and what is ON those PCs?  (By and large, it isn't 7.)  That points to poor economic conditions - especially since this last downturn began prior to 8's launch.

 

Further, touch support (in the hardware mind - not the OS) actually pre-dated the OS; the evidence of that is all over this thread, and not just from me.  (In other words, Microsoft - again - LAGGED the hardware trend, not led it.)

 

Flatness makes sense on portable hardware - not JUST tablets and slates, but even laptops and notebooks.  Why does it make sense?  That bugbear of ALL portable computing - battery life.

 

If you don't have any sort of portable hardware (including a laptop or notebook), then I can understand your reticence to take up an OS that addresses issues more common TO laptops or notebooks.  However, I noticed that you also passed over OS X (which is related to BSD) - likely because you are quite aware that the OS X desktop - like that of Windows 8+ - is quite graphically flat.  (All those MacBooks, you know.)

 

Basically, you chose to retreat to a niche.  Fine.  The question is will you STAY there?

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Proficient

nosense

Posted
Posted

What are you talking about? Windows always has been very highly UI customizable. Even with windows 8/8.1(not as customizable as 7) you have UI packs and different themes.http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/customization/skins/windows8/visualstyles8/?order=9

 

Deepin UI is a clone of OSX.....

right now I'm using Deepin and FreeBSD because I like the sheer customizability of those OS's which is something Windows WILL NEVER HAVE. Right now Windows 8/8.1 have this ugly, flat, monotone and dull "MODERN" UI which I don't like because it's too flat and from what I saw Windows 10 will have the same or worse flatness. I have decided to not use Windows in any of my personal systems any more.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

What are you talking about? Windows always has been very highly UI customizable. Even with windows 8/8.1(not as customizable as 7) you have UI packs and different themes.http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/customization/skins/windows8/visualstyles8/?order=9

 

Deepin UI is a clone of OSX.....

nosense - he COULD have used OS X itself; it's not any harder to install (if anything, it's easier to install) than any Linux distribution, let alone a BSD - in fact, in most cases, it's no harder to install than (egad) Windows.  However, the OS X UI is - like that of Windows 8+ - flat.  (The reasoning in both cases is identical - portable hardware.  Unlike Windows, there is no touch-capable OS X Mac hardware - despite there actually being touch-support in the OS itself.)  The passing over of OS X is therefore deliberate.

 

I'm not mad at fbsduser - he spoke his mind.  However, I'm more wondering if he actually believes what he spouted; there are more holes in the theory than in Grade AA Swiss fresh off the FedEx Boeing 747F.

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It now lets you toggle off specific parts of the menu without affecting other features, resize the menu, and hide additional UI elements. We published a closer look here, so if you want to know what Microsoft is cooking without enrolling in the Insider program and installing unstable builds, check it out. Speaking of new features, many users are very annoyed about the way Microsoft delivers them. Recently, a frustrated user shared their experience with gradual rollouts, and even Microsoft engineers admitted there is a flaw in the system that prevents new features from applying properly. One of those new features includes the ability to uninstall AI models in Windows 11 with a single click. Windows 11 is finally getting fixes for its slow context menus. Marcus Ash from Microsoft confirmed that the company is working on fixing Windows 11's context menus. Reworked context menus are going to be faster, simpler by default, and "configurable to what you use most." According to Marcus, Microsoft will share more details soon. Windows Insider Program Windows 11 preview builds, released last week, are now available for download as standalone ISO files. These days, Microsoft regularly pushes new images, allowing users to clean-install its recent Windows 11 preview builds faster and easier. If you want to try the latest Windows 11 features without jumping through the Windows Update hoops, get those new images here. Sadly, Microsoft did not release new Windows 11 preview builds this week. Come back next time. Updates are available This section covers software, firmware, and other notable updates (released and coming soon) delivering new features, security fixes, improvements, patches, and more from Microsoft and third parties. Microsoft is preparing new features for Teams. Later this month, the messenger will receive a new download manager with auto-dismissing notifications, reducing clutter and making the overall experience less annoying when dealing with downloads. Mozilla released Firefox 151.0.3, a new bug-fixing update for the browser. It is a small release, which fixes problems with pasting into text fields and the oversized VPN button on the toolbar. The update is now available for all users in the Release channel. Here are other updates and releases you may find interesting: VS Code 1.123 introduces massive upgrades for persistent AI developer workflows Microsoft OneDrive is getting a simple yet much-needed feature Microsoft faces heat after quietly blocking promised Office features on Apple systems Microsoft resumes forced Copilot app installation on some Windows PCs Browser vendors pen an open letter to Microsoft, saying "enough is enough" Here are the latest drivers and firmware updates released this week: AMD Radeon Software 26.6.1 with optimizations for F1 25: 2026 Season, World of Tanks: HEAT, and various bug fixes. Reviews are in Here is the hardware and software we reviewed this week Steven Parker dropped more mini PC reviews this week. GEEKOM Air12 2026 Edition is a low-power, affordable computer with an Intel Tiger Lake Pentium Gold processor, up to 16GB of memory, and 512GB of storage, costing just $349. It is light, quiet, energy efficient, and has modern ports on the front. However, the front-facing USB Type-C is data-only, and there are some quirks with the computer's memory, so check out the full review. The AMD RX 9070 GRE has been released worldwide, and we published a benchmark review comparing this powerful graphics card to the RX 9070 XT, 7800 XT, the NVIDIA RTX 5070, and RTX 4070. It has solid, balanced performance, plenty of RAM, and low temperatures, but watch out for mediocre ray tracing performance and not the best efficiency. Also, we reviewed the Cuktech 10 Ultra, a compact, high-power charger with four ports and a big display full of various stats. This tiny charger can pull nearly 120W and spread that power according to each connected device's needs. It also comes with a high-quality 240W cable, three power modes, and retractable prongs. The best part? It is quite affordable, just make sure you have an outlet placed in the right spot to benefit from the built-in display. On the gaming side Learn about upcoming game releases, Xbox rumors, new hardware, software updates, freebies, deals, discounts, and more. Do you remember the ASUS ROG Xbox Ally, Microsoft's first handheld console designed in partnership with ASUS? This week, ASUS revealed a new version of the device to celebrate twenty years of its Republic of Gamers brand. The new ROG Xbox Ally X20 features an OLED display, a transforming D-Pad, TMR sticks, and other changes. However, the chip inside the console is still the same. Forza Horizon 6 launched last month to critical acclaim, but the game will soon have a new rival made by those who used to work on Forza Horizon titles. Mike Brown from Maverick Games announced Clutch, an upcoming racing game with a story-driven campaign, deep car customization, and rich multiplayer. The game is coming to PC, Xbox Series X|S, and PlayStation 5 in Spring 2027. The next update for Minecraft now has a release date. This week, Mojang announced that Chaos Cubed will be available on June 16, 2026. In addition, Mojang published a teaser of the next Minecraft movie. A Minecraft Movie Squared has now been confirmed for a release somewhere in 2027. NVIDIA GeForce Now is getting 18 new games in June. Those include Jurassic World Evolution 3, Fatekeeper, GOALS, Gothic 1 Remake, NTE: Neverness to Everness, and more. If you are a Game Pass subscriber, you can also get new games soon: Persona 5 Royal, Starseeker: Astroneer Expeditions, and more are coming to the service this month. Sumer Game Fest 2026 happened this week, where we saw plenty of new games, including Alien Isolation 2, Final Fantasy VII Remake Part 3, Gen Atlas from the Shadow of the Colossus creator, a new Cuphead game in 8-bit style, a new expansion for Mafia: The Old Country, and more. Finally, here are this week's Weekend PC Game Deals, full of discounts and the latest freebies from the Epic Games Store. Other gaming news includes the following: God of War Laufey announced, introducing Kratos' wife as the new protagonist Ori studio's No Rest for the Wicked 1.0 release and console plans announced Microsoft launches Godot Sample to streamline Xbox PC game development on the engine Great deals to check Every week, we cover many deals on different hardware and software. The following discounts are still available, so check them out. You might find something you want or need. Samsung 990 PRO SSD 2TB NVMe - $389.99 | 39% off Sonos Sub 4 - Wireless Subwoofer - $759 | 16% off Logitech MX Creative Console - $159.99 | 20% off This link will take you to other issues of the Microsoft Weekly series. You can also support Neowin by registering for a free member account or subscribing for extra member benefits, along with an ad-free tier option.

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