The Great Modern UI Debate Thread

[f0rk_b0mb]

New screen showing more Modern UI 2.0 and Spartan, not sure if I like the new icon design style.

 

 

<snip>

 

I love the black though, can't wait to see the file explorer. Hope the end result is all of this and not some Frankenstein between the Windows 7/8 desktop UI and this.

 

I'm not sure if I like the white icons on the taskbar. They're...a little too minimalistic. On topic, I like IE's new design! I would personally remove the OneNote, Bookmark, and share icon for less distractions. 

[SekaiStory]

Agreed. Also very excited about Spartan and File Explorer.

BTW is that Fang from FF XIII in your avatar?

Yes  (Although I'm more into FFXV now instead of XIII.

 

Need to see more before I take that screenshot as legit, no buildmark, missing gaps. "Ask me anything" sounds weird too. It was "Search the Web and Windows" before

[Jarrichvdv]

Yes  (Although I'm more into FFXV now instead of XIII.

 

Need to see more before I take that screenshot as legit, no buildmark, missing gaps. "Ask me anything" sounds weird too. It was "Search the Web and Windows" before

+1 for Final Fantasy love.

On-topic: agreed, also the icon set looks like a *really* drastic change from what we have now... I don't think it'll fit in with the boatload of win32 apps, most of them having ugly icons.

[Dot Matrix]

I like this new "dark (or light) theme with color highlights" idea.

[Noir Angel]

It still sounds to me that you are arguing in favor of complacency - right or wrong?

 

It still sounds to me as if you're arguing that something being new automatically makes it better and worthy of blind acceptance from users.

[Dot Matrix]

It still sounds to me as if you're arguing that something being new automatically makes it better and worthy of blind acceptance from users.

The thing with "new", is that you're never going to have a 1:1 replacement of the "old". Things deprecate, and fall out of use. User habits change, etc. People aren't interacting with computers today as we did when much of what makes Windows, Windows was developed. We live in an interconnected, and always on world that is demanding more, and driving new habits, ideas, etc.

It's like going from mainframes and terminals, to desktop PCs. Now we're moving away from desktops to mobile devices.

[Michael Scrip]

The thing with "new", is that you're never going to have a 1:1 replacement of the "old". Things deprecate, and fall out of use. User habits change, etc. People aren't interacting with computers today as we did when much of what makes Windows, Windows was developed. We live in an interconnected, and always on world that is demanding more, and driving new habits, ideas, etc.

It's like going from mainframes and terminals, to desktop PCs. Now we're moving away from desktops to mobile devices.

But there are lots of people who are using Windows 8 on the same desktop-class machines that they were running Windows 7 on.  And using the same applications in the same manner too. 

 

Their habits haven't changed. Things aren't falling out of use.  They are interacting with their computers the same way they always have.  There are tons of laptops being announced at CES right now... but they don't look that much different than the laptops from 5 years ago.  And people will use those laptops the same way they always have. 

 

Even with the rise in tablets... regular ol' PCs are still being used. Heavily.

[Noir Angel]

The thing with "new", is that you're never going to have a 1:1 replacement of the "old". Things deprecate, and fall out of use. User habits change, etc. People aren't interacting with computers today as we did when much of what makes Windows, Windows was developed. We live in an interconnected, and always on world that is demanding more, and driving new habits, ideas, etc.

It's like going from mainframes and terminals, to desktop PCs. Now we're moving away from desktops to mobile devices.

 

And the thing is that making change for the sake of change and bastardising results in product compromises that make your product crappy to use on all platforms, alienating users, and creating a horribly weird mix of environments that has no place on a desktop computer.

 

I really couldn't give two hoots about a tablet, I don't care if Microsoft sell 100 billion tablets, I still don't want tablet interfaces on a desktop product. A simple idea I would say.

[Dot Matrix]

But there are lots of people who are using Windows 8 on the same desktop-class machines that they were running Windows 7 on.  And using the same applications in the same manner too. 

 

Their habits haven't changed. Things aren't falling out of use.  They are interacting with their computers the same way they always have.  There are tons of laptops being announced at CES right now... but they don't look that much different than the laptops from 5 years ago.  And people will use those laptops the same way they always have. 

 

Even with the rise in tablets... regular ol' PCs are still being used. Heavily.

I don't believe that to be correct. Their habits *are* changing, the KB+M might not be, but user habits definitely *are*. People are increasingly mobile, and not wishing to sit behind desks anymore. I have users who I support who don't even know what an Ethernet cable is, or why their screens aren't responding to their finger. I have users who call up asking to see if they can trade desktops for laptops. Etc. The company I support is getting ready to deploy iPads en masse, but has yet to replace their aging desktops.

 

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

I don't believe that to be correct. Their habits *are* changing, the KB+M might not be, but user habits definitely *are*. People are increasingly mobile, and not wishing to sit behind desks anymore. I have users who I support who don't even know what an Ethernet cable is, or why their screens aren't responding to their finger. I have users who call up asking to see if they can trade desktops for laptops. Etc. The company I support is getting ready to deploy iPads en masse, but has yet to replace their aging desktops.

 

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

 

Not entirely sure what your mobile rant has to do with the desktop?  I love my android...yet I would never want to use that interface on my desktop/notebook. It is great to operate with one hand but I would despise it using standard keyboard/mouse.  I do not want to use a touchscreen for either a notebook or a desktop (basically I do not want fingerprints all over my screen).  This is different than the android which I can simply rub against my pant leg to remove the fingerprints (hard to do with a notebook).  Also, I do not want a start menu on the android (see where I'm going...different devices/different ways to use them).

 

So, habits, on the desktops are not really changing.  How people are receiving/distributing information is.  How people interact with the various devices are not changing (aside from phones going from physical buttons to touchscreens and voice becoming smarter).  People still use desktops primarily with kb/mouse and touch with tablets/phones.  The operating system should reflect those two differences, which is why the start menu (apparently) will be default on 10's desktop.  As Michael Crip pointed out, people are "interacting with their computers the same way".  Don't confuse interacting with computers as the same as the method of receiving/distributing information and trying to melt the UI into one.  It will not work as Microsoft found out with Windows 8x.

[Michael Scrip]

I don't believe that to be correct. Their habits *are* changing, the KB+M might not be, but user habits definitely *are*. People are increasingly mobile, and not wishing to sit behind desks anymore. I have users who I support who don't even know what an Ethernet cable is, or why their screens aren't responding to their finger. I have users who call up asking to see if they can trade desktops for laptops. Etc. The company I support is getting ready to deploy iPads en masse, but has yet to replace their aging desktops.

 

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

I didn't mean "desktop" as in tower+monitor.

 

I meant "desktop" as in traditional desktop programs. Regular ol' PC programs that people have used for years... and use in the same manner. (mouse/keyboard)

 

The "old" UI paradigm is still being used in "old" software... even though a "new" UI paradigm was presented in Windows 8.

 

That's what I meant by user habits not changing.

[Noir Angel]

These are all signs of changing times. The desktop isn't the only game in town anymore. It's time our operating systems were built to reflect that.

 

Yeah. So in slapping a tablet UI on a desktop product, Microsoft not only create a product that feels wrong on a desktop, it also wastes around 10 gigs of your tablet's storage, when Android (without UI skins) takes a few hundred megabytes and even iOS less than 2 gigs. Slow clap for Microsoft everyone!

[Dot Matrix]

Yeah. So in slapping a tablet UI on a desktop product, Microsoft not only create a product that feels wrong on a desktop, it also wastes around 10 gigs of your tablet's storage, when Android (without UI skins) takes a few hundred megabytes and even iOS less than 2 gigs. Slow clap for Microsoft everyone!

Windows 10 on tablets is removing the desktop legacy, theoretically freeing up storage space.

[Max Norris]

Yeah. So in slapping a tablet UI on a desktop product, Microsoft not only create a product that feels wrong on a desktop, it also wastes around 10 gigs of your tablet's storage, when Android (without UI skins) takes a few hundred megabytes and even iOS less than 2 gigs. Slow clap for Microsoft everyone!

You honestly can't compare the size of a desktop OS to one that was designed for a phone, that's just silly. Of course it's going to be smaller. The modern stuff doesn't even enter into it, pick an older version of Windows, or hell another desktop entirely like KDE or something.

[Dot Matrix]

I didn't mean "desktop" as in tower+monitor.

 

I meant "desktop" as in traditional desktop programs. Regular ol' PC programs that people have used for years... and use in the same manner. (mouse/keyboard)

 

The "old" UI paradigm is still being used in "old" software... even though a "new" UI paradigm was presented in Windows 8.

 

That's what I meant by user habits not changing.

Even "regular old" desktop software is changing. Look at Office, look at our browsers, etc. Much of this stuff is cloud based now.

[sc302 Veteran]

Thread cleaned.  Stay on topic.

[Michael Scrip]

Even "regular old" desktop software is changing. Look at Office, look at our browsers, etc. Much of this stuff is cloud based now.

I guess I'm not following.... what does being "cloud-based" have to do with UI ?

[PGHammer]

But there are lots of people who are using Windows 8 on the same desktop-class machines that they were running Windows 7 on.  And using the same applications in the same manner too. 

 

Their habits haven't changed. Things aren't falling out of use.  They are interacting with their computers the same way they always have.  There are tons of laptops being announced at CES right now... but they don't look that much different than the laptops from 5 years ago.  And people will use those laptops the same way they always have. 

 

Even with the rise in tablets... regular ol' PCs are still being used. Heavily.

Michael,  I never denied that - both my test PCs are Vista-era hardware (desktop and notebook- with absolutely no touch support).

 

However, the very fact that I use ModernUI - on both - sans any bringbacks or other hacks - means that ModernUI is certainly usable without them.  While folks have had issues (which is something I didn't deny would happen), it's still a matter of personal preference - and nothing else.

 

I have absolutely nothing against folks having different personal preferences than I do; however, I certainly DO resent the very idea that I have to give up mine so they can have theirs, especially since the third parties stepped up to create those very same bringbacks (that are being thrown under the bus, and largely without cause). I don't use them - however, I don't hate them.

 

What really is driving the anti-Modern side screwball is the thought that ModernUI could actually be useful to a mouse user.  They thought they had ModernUI all nicely pigeonholed - and here I come with a solid case for using ModernUI with a mouse or other pointing device.  Is it my fault that I actually dared to actually look at ModernUI outside of the box they tried to put it into?  (After all, I had no choice - I DON'T have touch support.  If I was going to actually give ModernUI a fair evaluation, I had to use what I had - mice and trackpads.  Surprise - they work not only just fine, but they are easier to use in a lot of cases than some Win32 (as in desktop) applications - and especially on my notebook.)

 

What is happening with Office is the same thing that originally happened with WordPerfect.  WordPerfect was one of the earliest word-processing programs (it is, in point of fact, older than Microsoft itself, let alone Word).  It started off on mainframe computers - and specifically those from IBM.  (It is still available for IBM's mainframes, in addition to every OS under the moon, let alone the sun - including Android and iOS.)  It's the same trend - no application is immune.

[PGHammer]

I guess I'm not following.... what does being "cloud-based" have to do with UI ?

The UI used by cloud-based applications is NOT the same as their desktop counterparts - how much similarity is there between Outlook and Outlook.com, for example?  However, despite those differences, there is, quite literally, nothing preventing both applications from being usable on the same operating system.  Different platforms no more imply a different OS than a different UI does - after all, how many different application UIs exist merely in terms of Win32 applications?  The platform no longer decides the UI - in a multiplatform era, how often does the OS decide the UI?

[DeadEndAccount]

I didn't mean "desktop" as in tower+monitor.

 

I meant "desktop" as in traditional desktop programs. Regular ol' PC programs that people have used for years... and use in the same manner. (mouse/keyboard)

 

The "old" UI paradigm is still being used in "old" software... even though a "new" UI paradigm was presented in Windows 8.

 

That's what I meant by user habits not changing.

 

What was shown in Windows 8 was a partial glimpse into the future - what we see in Windows 10 is the complete WinRT stack on offer; full immersive interfaces and the ability to adapt when in windowed mode. I'd need to have a look but through one of the developer forums on Microsoft's website because a couple of years ago I remember reading a question asked about using WinRT in desktop applications - the reply given was pretty opaque but given that what we see in Windows 10 the idea of having windowed applications had been planned for quite some time with Windows 8 providing WinRT to encourage development for Windows RT and Windows Phone devices and Windows 10 finishing off WinRT to encourage developers to target both and have an adaptable front end. I don't things are changing radically given that most of the changes I've seen have been mainly under the hood to encourage developers to think beyond the desktop and those changes are bubbling up to the top with the interface becoming refined rather than a radical departure.

[PGHammer]

Oh well I can't say I've done much in the way of skinning Windows, so I don't really know much about what roadblocks have been placed. 

 

 

 

When people are talking about 'desktop' in a discussion about ModernUI and Windows, I generally assume they mean the desktop = everything not Modern. The way you seem to be talking about it, I get the impression that you are talking specifically about the desktop screen, but then you talk about "desktop applications". Could you enlighten a confused soul as to whether you mean 'everything not metro' or 'just the desktop' desktop?

 

On the latter topic - multiple desktops natively in Windows. Hallelujah. That right there is a big advancement. 

I'm referring to the non-modernized (legacy) parts  of the desktop UX - applications and all.  The critics of ModernUI and MDL are defending Win32 applications like they are under siege; however, given that they run within ModernUI just fine - and that MDL can, indeed, be used with non-RT applications (Office and Visual Studio are the biggest examples), that may be just a BIT overblown.

 

My problem with the *classic desktop* is that development in terms of non-gaming software in that same space has become largely moribund (going back to Windows 7, or even Vista, honestly) - what was the last major Windows desktop application that was NOT an improvement over something that already existed?  (Sadly, I can't include Waterfox - or most x64 software - in the "new" category, as it's a recode of Firefox (as is most x64 software itself being recoded versions of x32 software).)

 

That could be, however, the biggest complaint ABOUT ModernUI - next to it, most Win32-based applications look "dated".  If that's the complaint, then it very much IS aesthetics - not functionality.  (However, was that not also a rather large complaint about Luna and Royale (the major UIs of the XP era) in XP and the subversions thereof?) 

[fbsduser]

right now I'm using Deepin and FreeBSD because I like the sheer customizability of those OS's which is something Windows WILL NEVER HAVE. Right now Windows 8/8.1 have this ugly, flat, monotone and dull "MODERN" UI which I don't like because it's too flat and from what I saw Windows 10 will have the same or worse flatness. I have decided to not use Windows in any of my personal systems any more.

[PGHammer]

right now I'm using Deepin and FreeBSD because I like the sheer customizability of those OS's which is something Windows WILL NEVER HAVE. Right now Windows 8/8.1 have this ugly, flat, monotone and dull "MODERN" UI which I don't like because it's too flat and from what I saw Windows 10 will have the same or worse flatness. I have decided to not use Windows in any of my personal systems any more.

Please - you honestly believe that?

The very reason you made the choice you did (and especially FreeBSD) likely has more to do with LACK of adaptability (and especially security, which has historically been a BSD strength) and that no BSD supports touch (yet).

 

The touch anathema I REALLY don't get, as there is exactly NO case that touch interferes with non-touch software.  (None.  Not in any OS - let alone Windows.)

 

Aesthetics is one thing - however, now I sense nothing less than desperation setting in.  PC sales are up - and what is ON those PCs?  (By and large, it isn't 7.)  That points to poor economic conditions - especially since this last downturn began prior to 8's launch.

 

Further, touch support (in the hardware mind - not the OS) actually pre-dated the OS; the evidence of that is all over this thread, and not just from me.  (In other words, Microsoft - again - LAGGED the hardware trend, not led it.)

 

Flatness makes sense on portable hardware - not JUST tablets and slates, but even laptops and notebooks.  Why does it make sense?  That bugbear of ALL portable computing - battery life.

 

If you don't have any sort of portable hardware (including a laptop or notebook), then I can understand your reticence to take up an OS that addresses issues more common TO laptops or notebooks.  However, I noticed that you also passed over OS X (which is related to BSD) - likely because you are quite aware that the OS X desktop - like that of Windows 8+ - is quite graphically flat.  (All those MacBooks, you know.)

 

Basically, you chose to retreat to a niche.  Fine.  The question is will you STAY there?

[nosense]

What are you talking about? Windows always has been very highly UI customizable. Even with windows 8/8.1(not as customizable as 7) you have UI packs and different themes.http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/customization/skins/windows8/visualstyles8/?order=9

 

Deepin UI is a clone of OSX.....

right now I'm using Deepin and FreeBSD because I like the sheer customizability of those OS's which is something Windows WILL NEVER HAVE. Right now Windows 8/8.1 have this ugly, flat, monotone and dull "MODERN" UI which I don't like because it's too flat and from what I saw Windows 10 will have the same or worse flatness. I have decided to not use Windows in any of my personal systems any more.

[PGHammer]

What are you talking about? Windows always has been very highly UI customizable. Even with windows 8/8.1(not as customizable as 7) you have UI packs and different themes.http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/customization/skins/windows8/visualstyles8/?order=9

 

Deepin UI is a clone of OSX.....

nosense - he COULD have used OS X itself; it's not any harder to install (if anything, it's easier to install) than any Linux distribution, let alone a BSD - in fact, in most cases, it's no harder to install than (egad) Windows.  However, the OS X UI is - like that of Windows 8+ - flat.  (The reasoning in both cases is identical - portable hardware.  Unlike Windows, there is no touch-capable OS X Mac hardware - despite there actually being touch-support in the OS itself.)  The passing over of OS X is therefore deliberate.

 

I'm not mad at fbsduser - he spoke his mind.  However, I'm more wondering if he actually believes what he spouted; there are more holes in the theory than in Grade AA Swiss fresh off the FedEx Boeing 747F.