Is Microsoft ignoring the desktop again?

[nosense]

I guess you never made your way into OS Customization, Tips and Tweaks part of the forum. There's a bunch of transformation packs for 8\8.1.You also got tools like visual styles\icon packager which works with 8/8.1.

no. Windows XP through 7 had a place for a user to install total themes like i posted earlier. or.. if you wanted to just change to a set of new icons, download the icon pack, install and icons would be placed into the correct folder for icons and you would reboot, and change to the icons you liked. some people made fantastic icons.. microsoft could have learned a thing or two from some of those icon/theme developers. many were talented

 

or install a complete theme all together for:

 

[SionicIon]

Vista -> Win 7 - huge architectural changes, lots of improvement to file system, kernel, lower layers, changes to Explorer, desktop

Win 7 -> Win 8 - again major changes (even if you ignore Metro), new task manager, kernel hibernation, File history, MS account

But so far, everything about Windows 10 is focused on Continuum, mobile etc. The only new thing on the desktop is the revamped start menu and virtual desktops, Cortana. It's the same desktop, same Explorer, same internals, just a few color and icon tweaks. There has been no information about what's actually new underneath or how its better.

It's now been 2 public announcements and they haven't talked about a single engineering feature except DX12.

I'm not trying to be rude, but a lot of metro haters thought everything would go back to normal once the start menu came back. Idk if you're one of them but you have to see the bigger picture to understand Windows 10.

First of all, Windows 8/8.1 modern apps were designed for touch screens. No chrome. Full screen. Windows 10 modern apps are supposed to tailor to the form factor. For example desktop.

Future modern apps will not only be in a window, but they will replace legacy desktop applications. Their UI will tailor to the desktop, it will not be touch friendly unless it is running on a tablet.

For example the same app can work on the Xbox but it obviously won't need a mouse/keyboard or a touchscreen. It will tailor to a big screen and a Xbox controller or even Kinect.

This introduces all sorts of new app experiences on the desktop. Including decommissioning the outdated control panel and several other applications with modern apps. Spartan is an updatable app from the Windows Store.

Second of all, updating will be faster with build to build upgrades. This could potentially be the end of installing hundreds of updates on an RTM build. Instead just install the latest build.

Third of all, OneCore is a massive change. The kernel just made a major jump to 10.0. Idk much about what's under the hood. But watching the event, a lot of Xbox code and HoloLens code is built in for those scenarios. I'm sure there is much more to find out at the BUILD conference.

You have to remember with Windows 8, it went Developer Preview, then Consumer Preview, then Release Preview. It isn't like that this time. So far we've had a Technical Preview for enterprise customers. Now we are about to have the Consumer Preview. The Developer Preview which Microsoft showed off first with Windows 8 is actually the third public release for Windows 10. So what ground breaking changes to the core we knew of with Windows 8, we haven't seen because they chose to show the technical and consumer previews first.

[Defcon]

I'm far from a Metro hater, what I hated was everyone (and I mean people on forums, blogs, reviewers) all focuse don Metro in Win 8 while ignoring the real changes made in the OS like moving to MS Account, the much improved kernel etc.

 

What you're talking about, things like Universal apps and unified kernel, is what I want to hear more of. 

 

I look at Windows and Microsoft as the only true innovator, or more accurately as the only company that values R&D and has the potential to really change the way people experience computing. As much noise as Apple makes, they will always be fringe me-too copycats when it comes to innovation.

[link6155]

they neglected the desktop. yes. long gone are the pleasures of installing custom icons, themes, which included color schemes and taskbar and start button customizations.

 

That's not true. There has been plenty of themes, icon packs, and start buttons for Windows 8: http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/customization/skins/windows8/visualstyles8/

 

The same will most likely be true for Windows 10. As long as they keep the desktop environment's functionality and layout the same, themes will come eventually. There are already some themes available for Windows 10 Technical Preview.

[Defcon]

None of that works without hacking your OS with UxStyle. I already posted a link about UI features that were removed from 8 (and thus 10). Can we stop brining up deviantart, because it means nothing.

[Ian W]

If I'm clued into what you are saying, If I install office then libreoffice, click to open a word file, I'm always asked if I want word to be the default program to open this file type (assuming I'm reading you correctly)? if so, it does that already.

Not quite. Consider that applications often use their own file formats to represent the same types of data. Microsoft's Outlook application, for example, stores contacts in a way that is distinct from the operating system (which itself stores contacts in a way that is distinct from Outlook).

With "WinFS," the notion of people becomes a system-wide concept available to the operating system and all (compatible) applications. So a "WinFS"-enabled Outlook application would no longer have to store its contact information in a way that is distinct from the operating system; rather, it could simply access this information from "WinFS," which would also be available to the operating system (and other applications).

Note that this is a fairly simple explanation that does not delve into some of the technology's other features, such as relationships. I must state that I feel that too many Windows enthusiasts clamor for "WinFS" while ignoring some of the other interesting technologies intended for Windows Vista. If I could have one feature intended for Windows Vista it would probably be NGSCB, but no one really seems to care about that feature, so . . .

[HawkMan]

Then you clearly don't know what WinFS was. I'll try not to get technical, but it was a mechanism any app could use to expose their data as objects vs files.

 

e.g you could define a folder 'imp mails' in Explorer which would show emails from Outlook/Gmail etc that ere labeled important. Its a far cry from 'smart search' which tries to do the same thing but relies on files and filters.

 

Except you know, WinFS never actually worked. and the team who worked on it USED the ACTUAL code form WinFS to make Libraries and Smart searches, and have openly said that they are at this point far more than WinFS ever was. there's a reason the project was canceled. and it is the same thing, smart search still treats folders and mails as objects, it's just a programming metaphor. 

You're not serious? Libraries and Saved Searches don't allow users to create relationships between data, nor do they enable the operating system and its applications to share a single notion of a type of data, such as a "contact."

 

because none of that ever actually worked. and the filesystem, windows, your mail app and everything else already know what's a contact data file/object. 

[binaryzero]

theme you say= "change taskbar color and background picture."

 

my definition =" install icon packs, wallpapers(background pictures), color schemes, Aero on/off, windows shapes (gothic, sci-fi). that's real customizing.

 

see here

 

or

 

 

 

 

That's fugly. 

[HawkMan]

no. Windows XP through 7 had a place for a user to install total themes like i posted earlier. or.. if you wanted to just change to a set of new icons, download the icon pack, install and icons would be placed into the correct folder for icons and you would reboot, and change to the icons you liked. some people made fantastic icons.. microsoft could have learned a thing or two from some of those icon/theme developers. many were talented

 

or install a complete theme all together for:

 

 

not officially supported, buggy as hell.

[binaryzero]

^ that just reminds me of OS/2 Warp 4.

[HawkMan]

Not quite. Consider that applications often use their own file formats to represent the same types of data. Microsoft's Outlook application, for example, stores contacts in a way that is distinct from the operating system (which itself stores contacts in a way that is distinct from Outlook).

WinFSPeople.png

With "WinFS," the notion of people becomes a system-wide concept available to the operating system and all (compatible) applications. So a "WinFS"-enabled Outlook application would no longer have to store its contact information in a way that is distinct from the operating system; rather, it could simply access this information from "WinFS," which would also be available to the operating system (and other applications).

Note that this is a fairly simple explanation that does not delve into some of the technology's other features, such as relationships. I must state that I feel that too many Windows enthusiasts clamor for "WinFS" while ignoring some of the other interesting technologies intended for Windows Vista. If I could have one feature intended for Windows Vista it would probably be NGSCB, but no one really seems to care about that feature, so . . .

 

And again, none of that ever actually worked. and it was pointless, that example in particular was especially pointless, since at the time MS already stored contacts in a separate OS wide database that any application could access and modify. the only ones who used it was MS, and this wouldn't have changed if it for some stupid reason was put into the filesystem with 600 different services running on top of the "FS" in order to serve different kinds of objects to everything. it was a stupid pointless idea. 

[Ian W]

Except you know, WinFS never actually worked. and the team who worked on it USED the ACTUAL code form WinFS to make Libraries and Smart searches and have openly said that they are at this point far more than WinFS ever was.

Unlikely considering that both Libraries and Saved Searches are essentially XML files. And do you have a source for that claim?

because none of that ever actually worked. and the filesystem, windows, your mail app and everything else already know what's a contact data file/object. 

Yes and most of them in their own unique ways (in "data silos" as Microsoft called it). Why should they treat this data differently?

[redfish]

The desktop has been static since Vista or probably even Windows 98.

 

Just off the top of my head, what they could do -

 

- remove confusion with Homegroups, Libraries, This PC, My PC

- expose NTFS features like hard links, junction points, and actually use them

- per monitor dpi

- object oriented file system with smart searches - I don't know how many of you actually remember WinFS

- improved kernel

 

Trust me, there is TONS of stuff that can be done. Just take a look at Microsoft Research projects sometime, they do a lot of cool projects that never make it into a real product because of marketing reasons.

 

Explorer needs to be modernized in so many ways, especially with handling metadata & tagging.

[HawkMan]

Unlikely considering that both Libraries and Saved Searches are essentially XML files. And do you have a source for that claim?

Yes and most of them in their own unique ways (in "data silos" as Microsoft called it). Why should they treat this data differently?

 

Look up interviews with MS/WinFS team after Vista and windows 7 and after WinFS was officially canceled. even on this very site.

[hagjohn]

Had to laugh when I read the topic.

[Defcon]

Except you know, WinFS never actually worked. and the team who worked on it USED the ACTUAL code form WinFS to make Libraries and Smart searches, and have openly said that they are at this point far more than WinFS ever was. there's a reason the project was canceled. and it is the same thing, smart search still treats folders and mails as objects, it's just a programming metaphor. 

 

because none of that ever actually worked. and the filesystem, windows, your mail app and everything else already know what's a contact data file/object. 

I'm well aware of this. The point that is being made is that projects like WinFS are what advances the OS in fundamental ways. Longhorn was a beautiful vision for an OS, I think it was the last time MS actually tried to do something really revolutionary.

 

In the computing world, object oriented-ness is a big thing. We will never know the true possibilities of having a relational, object oriented and extensible data store as the file system, which the OS and all apps used in many new ways. So its rather pointless to say that 'WinFS didn't do much and so it was cancelled'. 

 

What MS did in Windows 8 with a unified kernel and core, the idea of universal app binaries, that's the big stuff. Things like Start menu, windowed vs full screen apps, charms bar etc, that is just fluff, because its just  UI layer that can be changed anytime. 

[Defcon]

And again, none of that ever actually worked. and it was pointless, that example in particular was especially pointless, since at the time MS already stored contacts in a separate OS wide database that any application could access and modify. the only ones who used it was MS, and this wouldn't have changed if it for some stupid reason was put into the filesystem with 600 different services running on top of the "FS" in order to serve different kinds of objects to everything. it was a stupid pointless idea. 

You can keep repeating the word 'pointless', it doesn't make it so.

 

The whole idea of an OS is to provide services to apps. e..g OSX has Spotlight which lots of apps use. They have Time Machine as a service which other apps can hook into and thus get benefits. If you think that providing a system level data management service with a rich API and relationships is 'pointless', you have no idea what you are talking about. It is pretty much the holy grail in many areas. It was cancelled due to budget, marketing/political reasons, who knows.

 

e.g. before there was DirectX, every game used its own native code. With WinFS as an app developer you no longer would have to worry about how to store data, how to access it, search it etc. It was HUGE.

[GotBored]

Whats the purpose of Cortana on desktop PC?

 

Who has a microphone connected to their desktop PCs? 

[onewarmslime]

Personally I think we're screwed. the search bar on the taskbar is probably even uglier than metro and I sure hope there's a way to remove it cause I'd rather chew glass than look at this every day. my two cents

 

Who has a microphone connected to their desktop PCs? 

I do for skype. of course your point still stands it's freaking useless (just like it is for mobiles except the novelty probably wears out even quicker)

[kala-kas]

Well, I do agree with some people and disagree with others here. First off, lets get the customization thing out of a way: even when there are .msstyles available for 8(.x), Microsoft is moving away from it. None of the Modern stuff is in msstyle. Seeing as if Windows 10 will further advance that I expect that you will not be even able to change Window frame and buttons from the msstyle any longer. I used to be a themer and I know all about how this stuff works so do not even start arguing there. I havent touched the 10 msstyle bits yet, but I'm more than sure it is that way. So Microsoft does not really want you to customize your desktop, except the ways the let you do it (ala change start menu to full screen, change title bar color, silly things like that).

 

As for todays presentation: I like some things alot, I like the concept of Spartan, the Continuum and few more. Yet on the other side... there seems to be quite a bit of things I do not like about 10. I dont want to talk to my computer, let alone saying that it wont probably work correctly in my language for another 10 years. I have no interests in xbox gaming on my PC, I dont play games.

 

I think what I'm trying to say here..... in my eyes the OS is bloated. I think Microsoft should make a simpler version of Windows 10 that doesnt really come with many applications, just some basic stuff to get started and let me choose the features I want. I hope I can turn the Cortana and bunch of other stuff off and they dont force it on me, but even if thats the case, the underlying code is still there, taking space and probably even some resources even when I dont need it.

 

I'm still not yet convinced by Windows 10, if they will not surprise me I think I'll have to move away to Linux world. I mean, I like modern UI alot actually, was a total fan of Zune HD Ui and Zune software UI, but they just kind of... I dont know, lost the focus? It seems like too many different teams are working on Microsoft and they dont really comminucate with each other. I also think Microsoft is trying to take a too big of a leap with this whole 10 release, considering schedule it might turn out to be another 8, I'm afraid.

 

Also what is the deal with subscription based license? If I go but a computer with 10 on it, it means I have to start paying monthly fee to use my computer? Thats totally ridicilous....

[binaryzero]

And how does a new file system benefit businesses? I have to remind myself that 95% of the people on this forum are home consumers, who worry about the most insignificant issues with their PC. Please, someone hit me up with a job offer that allows me to tinker around with a PC all day, achieve absolutely nothing except pulling things apart, that pays me the 100k+ salary my current job offers me now (where I actually use a computer for productive measures, not dissecting the file system and voicing how Microsoft should've done things this way).

 

NTFS is fine, haven't had a problem yet. 

 

Should we go to the file system OpenVMS uses? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Files-11

[Jose_49]

I have Win 8.1. And we ARE getting another Win 8, if you don't have a hybrid, there's very little new. Did you not read my 1st post?

 

Not improving is same as ignoring. This thread is about desktop users. The other poster said Continuum is a desktop feature and I pointed out its not.

Multiple desktop, Improved Alt+Tab, Modern apps in windows, Battery Saver, Notifications, Unified Store... 

 

Hmmm.... I just don't know what is your point...

 

Edit:

Add in improved aero snap, 

 

These alone are factors which improve productivity tenfold

[onewarmslime]

Jared-, on 22 Jan 2015 - 02:26, said:

And how does a new file system benefit businesses? I have to remind myself that 95% of the people on this forum are home consumers, who worry about the most insignificant issues with their PC. Please, someone hit me up with a job offer that allows me to tinker around with a PC all day, achieve absolutely nothing except pulling things apart, that pays me the 100k+ salary my current job offers me now (where I actually use a computer for productive measures, not dissecting the file system and voicing how Microsoft should've done things this way).

 

NTFS is fine, haven't had a problem yet. 

 

Should we go to the file system OpenVMS uses? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Files-11

you mean you're not into recompiling the kernel every 3 days? weirdo

[Jose_49]

Also what is the deal with subscription based license? If I go but a computer with 10 on it, it means I have to start paying monthly fee to use my computer? Thats totally ridicilous....

IIRC They never said that

[kala-kas]

Well, they kind of hinted to it, since they see "Windows as a service". I do not disagree with the concept, yet I'm unsure that would be the way to go about this.