DocM Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 What does Detroit public school have to do with anything? The comment was made to force kids into public schools. My reply was why that's not always a good idea, and what other options need to be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Think this through - think of all the problems this "forcing" would cause. > Why do you think it is that Detroit's education system is resisting change ? Teachers union resistance to changes that would include increased scrutiny of their performance, and modifying the tenure rules to make getting rid of bad teachers simpler. If you want a real education on how US schools are failing look up NYC 's use of "rubber rooms" - places where failed teachers sit and entertain themselves because they can't be fired but also cannot be allowed back into the classroom. They still drew full checks. Also check out the education documentary "Waiting for Superman." In smaller districts a failed teacher could be reassigned to certain special education programs (specifically those who warehouse very low functioning "students") or turned into a go-fer who runs copies etc. Disclosure: my wife is a teacher of 30+ years seniority and she's livid over the state of US schools. T3X4S 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 I can tell you the property ownership, occupance, and especially home title ownership laws in Texas are really screwy. As far as the other issues - This is another great example of what happens when people get too religious. There is nothing wrong bad with someone believing that we are part of some grand plan. Even though Im an atheist & follower of logic, reason, and science. But when it is at the forefront of everything you do - you have problems. Common sense, reason, and basic human needs are thrown out the window for holy dogma in all its convoluted forms. This is what I mean. If my parents are in some weird cult, what right does the government have to take me away from my parents? OMG, they perform weird rituals, so let's take their kids away? T3X4S 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Wow. I would somewhat understand this happening in an undeveloped country, but in the US? Actually, the US is probably the most likely place one could expect this to happen. It has quite a long history of loony sects like this one that older nations just don't put up with. At least the guy running it was jailed before it turned into another Jonestown (yes, I know that happend in Guyana, but it was an American sect)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3X4S Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Actually, the US is probably the most likely place one could expect this to happen. It has quite a long history of loony sects like this one that older nations just don't put up with. At least the guy running it was jailed before it turned into another Jonestown (yes, I know that happend in Guyana, but it was an American sect)... Exactly - the US is the most likely place for something like this because these wackjobs are protected by law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Exactly - the US is the most likely place for something like this because these wackjobs are protected by law. See, you got your freedom of religion law wrong. Freedom of religion itself is OK, as long as said religion doesn't contravene secular laws. If it does, tough noogies; no loony sect for you! No religion should be allowed an exception to the laws the whole of society accepts (ie: halal slaughtering and regular slaughtering methods) just because their magical story book written 1000+ years ago, said so. MikeChipshop 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted February 3, 2015 Member Share Posted February 3, 2015 Well here in the UK if your child does not attend school or they skip out to play (hooky) or what ever its called in usa the paretn can end up in prison. No, we can still home school in the UK if so wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocM Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 See, you got your freedom of religion law wrong. Freedom of religion itself is OK, as long as said religion doesn't contravene secular laws. If it does, tough noogies; no loony sect for you! > That is the law, and why Warren Jeffs is in prison for life + 20 years. The problem is getting the evidence to convict beyond a shadow of doubt (our standard) when you have an insular & isolated group - and both are easy in empty spaces in the far west US where you can go hundreds of miles and see no one. Inference isn't enough outside of the internet & Neowin. This came when victims etc. came forward, sued those involved and presented State's evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippleman Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 This is what I mean. If my parents are in some weird cult, what right does the government have to take me away from my parents? OMG, they perform weird rituals, so let's take their kids away? If your parents "cult" was doing harmful things, (dependent on the extreme factor of harmfulness like pedophilia or pain) then yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.i.b.b.s Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 And if the public school is rotten to the core and/or dangerous? This is why most Detroit kids are in academies, home schooled, using onlionline academies etc. Detroit's public schools are in state receivership and still resisting real change Parents and kids need these options, not formulaic, failed solutions like many public schools are. As to these kids: investigate and see if it's a real vs an assumed problem and act accordingly. Well said DocM. The idea of the "state" taking over the care and education of our children even more than it already has is frightening. The "state" already plays a huge role and government intrusion into citizens lives has run amok. I can imagine a day when parents get jailed because they're not sending their children to state-sponsored indoctrination camps called public schools. The educational system in the US is broken, especially in urban largely minority communities unfortunately. What's needed as DocM said is choice and options like homeschooling, charter schools, magnet schools, early college academies, etc. The state dictating how you raise you children conjures up images of the "Hitler Youth". What's become of this great nation when we no longer have the freedom to live as a family as we see fit. As to this particular case brought up by the OP if there is real abuse occurring then they should be placed in the care of relatives or if necessary foster homes to protect them. Outside of that, the government needs to stay out of our lives. remixedcat 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 No, we can still home school in the UK if so wish. But IIRC, you're required to follow the state mandated curriculum and meet the appropriate milestones, or back to school you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 The educational system in the US is broken, especially in urban largely minority communities unfortunately. What's needed as DocM said is choice and options like homeschooling, charter schools, magnet schools, early college academies, etc. The state dictating how you raise you children conjures up images of the "Hitler Youth". What's become of this great nation when we no longer have the freedom to live as a family as we see fit. I have to wonder... Is there anything run by the US government that isn't broken to hell and back? The state, IMO, has a duty of care to see that your kids are educated to at least a certain level; that's the job of state schools, and they need to be given the resources necessary to DO that job properly! Spend a bit less on bullets and a bit more on decent teachers and books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted February 3, 2015 Member Share Posted February 3, 2015 But IIRC, you're required to follow the state mandated curriculum and meet the appropriate milestones, or back to school you go! Not as far as i know (been looking in to it for our own kid). Apparently now a days you don;t have to follow any particular curriculum. Could be wrong though, i've still a fair amount of reading up to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Not as far as i know (been looking in to it for our own kid). Apparently now a days you don;t have to follow any particular curriculum. Could be wrong though, i've still a fair amount of reading up to do. Eh, I'm just presuming. TBH though, I don't think home schooling is a good idea, at least for the UK. Most of our schools are just fine and kids really DO need to learn to socialise with others their own age. If they're home schooled, they miss out on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.i.b.b.s Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Eh, I'm just presuming. TBH though, I don't think home schooling is a good idea, at least for the UK. Most of our schools are just fine and kids really DO need to learn to socialise with others their own age. If they're home schooled, they miss out on that. Not entirely. There are still sports like little league, football, basketball etc that provide that. The notion that homeschooled students are trapped at home segregated from the world is more a stereotype. Sure there are some maladjusted home schooled kids but on the flip side what has socializing in school done for kids: snapchat porn, sex, drugs, alcohol, cyber bullying etc. Public education isn't entirely to blame, other factors play a role, but public schools make those problems infinitely more attractive and tempting. Public schools are not the panacea of socialization many would like to believe, in fact, there is an argument that they can do more harm than good because of the aforementioned realities of public school. and even those students that do attend public schools may be loners, ostracized, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 ^ Of course, it's somewhat different these days, where kids never go out the house after school anyway as they're too busy talking to their friends over the internet instead of face to face... Damn, the world has changed... Not necessarily for the better, either! Going to school every day and getting your head kicked in by the school bullies teaches you a valuable life lesson! (That people are <bleeps!>, generally!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clirion Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have to wonder... Is there anything run by the US government that isn't broken to hell and back? The state, IMO, has a duty of care to see that your kids are educated to at least a certain level; that's the job of state schools, and they need to be given the resources necessary to DO that job properly! Spend a bit less on bullets and a bit more on decent teachers and books! You are correct it is a State issue, and as such the State should handle it. A vast majority of the funding comes from the State itself, In most of them it is part of the property tax. In the most states the kids are to be tested to make sure they are staying up to grade level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 WOW... There is a whole lot of "What's going on here?" in that small town... If the "school aged kids" aren't going to traditional school/classroom, are they at least being given a proper education (Math, English, Science, Geography, Phys. Ed, etc.)? Are these parents just "cattle'lizing" their kids, and giving them to this man? Or are these kids just flocking to him, because of he is suppose to be? <~~~~~~~ Everyone needs some counseling when it comes to this part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3X4S Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 See, you got your freedom of religion law wrong. Freedom of religion itself is OK, as long as said religion doesn't contravene secular laws. If it does, tough noogies; no loony sect for you! No religion should be allowed an exception to the laws the whole of society accepts (ie: halal slaughtering and regular slaughtering methods) just because their magical story book written 1000+ years ago, said so. Sorry - I was bending the law a little. I was implying that even though this behavior has nothing to do with Freedom of Religion in the Constitution - they will bend it to say that - the ACLU will champion them, a lot of people will cry foul when the gov't steps in, and the last thing the gov't was is a bad rap before election time - so they will make some kind of condolences to the offenders... hence - they are protected by law -- that is what I meant by my comment. You even said, "no religion should be allowed" - but we all know the Gov't loves to turn a blind eye if they dont want to get their hands dirty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Oops, I didn't mean YOU personally got it wrong, I mean your whole country got the law wrong by wording and enforcing it the way you do. People can believe what they want, but you shouldn't allow religions to override secular laws, which you do. Every time you do that, you do wrong to the people who don't follow that particular religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolol Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 but you shouldn't allow religions to override secular laws, which you do.I personally want to see which religions adherents that loves trying to override secular laws.But alas, such study are considered political incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloatingFatMan Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I personally want to see which religions adherents that loves trying to override secular laws. But alas, such study are considered political incorrect. Well, how about the Creationists that force the biblical creation story to be taught in science class? That's favouring one religions viewpoint over others in a clear transgression of the separation of church and state. Or how about when religion sticks its oar in over homosexual issues such as same sex marriage, or when it also does it to abortion issues, or stem cell research and so on and so forth. All religion sticking its oar in and forcing laws to be made banning things that religion has no place interfering in. Torolol 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clirion Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well, how about the Creationists that force the biblical creation story to be taught in science class? That's favouring one religions viewpoint over others in a clear transgression of the separation of church and state. Or how about when religion sticks its oar in over homosexual issues such as same sex marriage, or when it also does it to abortion issues, or stem cell research and so on and so forth. All religion sticking its oar in and forcing laws to be made banning things that religion has no place interfering in. (Take the creation story out of science class, that is school board issue and not law. Should not be done, but not to what my point is going to be.) Do we tell those that have religious beliefs to go sit down and shut up? They do not get a say in any of these debates? Who else gets to be shut down? DocM, DConnell and G.i.b.b.s 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorD Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I believe that when education comes into play each student (in NY I know) is supposed to take certain testing. So for example I know that we have a rather large Amish community ( you don't get much more hard core religious then them) that only sends their kids to school to grade 9 that complies with local testing along side public schools. Same can be said If a child is home schooled to x grade they must also be in compliance with education laws or the parent is in violation of the law and that child must return to public school. If the parent does not comply with the mandates in education then they can (and have been) charged with a crime against their child. Locally we have several "special needs" Amish students that we take to other schools that will help them with their needs deaf, blind, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remixedcat Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I will also be covering this in my demographic report. I heard about these two areas and there's another in Colorado like it as well. There's an even weirder area in the NE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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