Why have they split Control Panel and Settings?

[gohpep]

A single runtime core and API is great. Applying the same UI concepts to different form factors is not.

 

MS tried this with Windows Mobile (Start menu and normal controls on a 3" screen), and they're trying it again now. It does not scale and will not scale.

 

The problem is they are not 'sharing concepts when appropriate' but trying to shoehorn one paradigm everywhere - e.g. fullscreen Metro apps on desktop users in Win 8 was a bad idea. They realized that and have now gone the other way, where Tablet mode in Win 10 still shows a single scrolling list for all apps.

 

'Few stumbles' is vastly understating the extent of the problem - their stubborness to refuse to listen to feedback and force Win 8 touch metaphors cost the company billions of dollars and eroded and tarnished the Windows brand. Why else do you think they are being forced to give away copies of Windows?

Except that start menu was not universally friendly UI. Metro is. It is perfect for touch, mouse, and keyboard.

[PGHammer]

The issue remains "adjustability", but not necessarily to suit the hardware.

 

The biggest reason for adjustability is personal preference - period.  Not everyone uses an operating system the same way - even on identical hardware.  (In other words, having an OS defined by what it is running on is largely a crock.)

 

All too often, how we use an OS is defined by how we SEE the OS and/or hardware it is running on - not necessarily the actual features OF said hardware.

 

How often does a PC (regardless of form-factor) gain features by merely upgrading the OS?  It happens far MORE often than I would wager a lot of folks - and especially those that have repeatedly criticized Microsoft's OS upgrades - would dare admit.

 

In fact, look really hard at Image Mount (disk image mounting) and Disk Optimizer - both came with Windows 8 as standard out of the box (and are not SKU-blocked, unlike Hyper-V).  As much as folks approved of Image Mount, Disk Optimizer is the harder call, as it attacked third-parties directly - and in particular, one of the most USED third-parties tools across the NT-based OS space, Diskeeper.  What makes it all the more hilarious is that Disk Optimizer - like Disk Defragmenter, which it replaced - was, in fact written by the SAME company that wrote Diskeeper.  (Does it, or does it not, take "stones" the size of coconuts to ask a third party to obsolesce ITSELF?)  However, Disk Optimizer does exactly that.

[Defcon]

Except that start menu was not universally friendly UI. Metro is. It is perfect for touch, mouse, and keyboard.

I never said Start menu was better. Metro is great if they can 1) use it consistently, and 2) fix performance issues.

 

#1 will never happen, there's way too much legacy code still in Win32. They couldn't convert it to .NET and they won't be able to convert it to WinRT either.

#2 will also not likely to happen. WinRT apps with very little functionality are much slower to open and use than normal desktop apps.

[Ian W]

I never said Start menu was better. Metro is great if they can 1) use it consistently, and 2) fix performance issues.

I think his point

[Defcon]

I think his point

[Ian W]

Win 10 has a start menu with list of apps in a single column on the left. When you make this fullscreen, or in tablet mode, its still a single column, and there's lots of wasted space on the right. This is a UI that's not well designed.

I agree with this.

 

Which is the exact reason why the Longhorn reset happened - MS couldn't convert everything over to .NET due to resource/perf issues.

Not all features intended for "Longhorn" were based on .NET. Even if the "Longhorn" reset had not happened there would still be legacy code; .NET, or more specifically WPF

[Jim K Global Moderator]

No one is trying to build one UI across all devices. They're trying to build one core platform and a consistent UI framework, sharing concepts where appropriate instead of having arbitrarily different solutions to the same problem.

 

This is unquestionably the right direction. There have just been a few stumbles getting there.

 

While I agree to some extent, though this has been said many times, the error with Windows 8 pretty much all revolved around the missing Start Menu and the Modern UI interface (regarding desktops). 

 

Microsoft may very well have not built one UI across all devices...but they came close enough to cause a lot of desktop users to bypass it.  Microsoft could have easily created the Modern UI core apps yet have two different shells (one primarily for desktop/one primarily for tablet/phone...but end user decides).  Trying to mash this desktop/tablet/phone UI into one really hasn't worked well for them.  Windows 8 was a flop and the Windows Phone hasn't taken off.  Surface on the other hand, if memory serves me correctly, is doing very well.  Modern UI does fit the Surface and Phone very well.

 

A single runtime core and API is great. Applying the same UI concepts to different form factors is not.

 

MS tried this with Windows Mobile (Start menu and normal controls on a 3" screen), and they're trying it again now. It does not scale and will not scale.

 

The problem is they are not 'sharing concepts when appropriate' but trying to shoehorn one paradigm everywhere - e.g. fullscreen Metro apps on desktop users in Win 8 was a bad idea. They realized that and have now gone the other way, where Tablet mode in Win 10 still shows a single scrolling list for all apps.

 

'Few stumbles' is vastly understating the extent of the problem - their stubborness to refuse to listen to feedback and force Win 8 touch metaphors cost the company billions of dollars and eroded and tarnished the Windows brand. Why else do you think they are being forced to give away copies of Windows?

 

I tend to agree with this post.  Having the desktop able to run Modern UI applications is great, especially for those that have either a Surface or a Windows Phone (or both).  That could potentially save those users some money by purchasing one application and have the ability to run it across their two or three devices.

 

However, as a user that does not own either a Surface or a Windows Phone...I have seriously failed to see the appeal of any Modern UI application (except the Food & Drunk application).  I have yet run across a Modern UI application that can best its w32 counterpart ... or browser equivalent (i.e. Facebook, Weather websites...etc)

[PGHammer]

Sometimes, a desktop application or even a browser provides too MUCH information to the point where a user can get swamped.  That has been the reason behind everything from tiles to gadgets to even small applications that are meant to live in the TaskTray/Notification Area (such as AWS WeatherBug, which the Weather app replaced).  Also, some of these same "small" apps can augment existing (or desktop, for that matter) applications; I use Mail and its tile to augment - NOT replace - Outlook 2013/2016.  It won't replace Outlook - which is way too useful - however, it DOES keep me from opening it constantly (or needlessly).

[gohpep]

You both misunderstood my example.

 

Win 8/8.1 has a Metro start screen which scales and adapts to phones/tablets/desktop equally well.

 

Win 10 has a start menu with list of apps in a single column on the left. When you make this fullscreen, or in tablet mode, its still a single column, and there's lots of wasted space on the right. This is a UI that's not well designed.

 

Also for any big software project, let alone something like Windows, its unrealistic to expect everything to be ported/rewritten. There will always be shims/wrappers and large portions of legacy code will exist. It takes 3-4 cycles to even get rid of these. e.g. rewriting the shell/explorer.exe in WinRt is never gonna happen, its simply too big and too risky. The most they can do is convert some small parts like the file picker/start menu/settings and even that is taking years. The day Win32 is totally deprecated is when we can discuss this again.

 

And this doesn't even address the performance problems WinRT apps have, they are just too slow.

 

Which is the exact reason why the Longhorn reset happened - MS couldn't convert everything over to .NET due to resource/perf issues.

This is my start screen at fullscreen:

 

Although I get your point about the start tiles not being responsive at the moment, they will be in the future.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

A single runtime core and API is great. Applying the same UI concepts to different form factors is not.

 

MS tried this with Windows Mobile (Start menu and normal controls on a 3" screen), and they're trying it again now. It does not scale and will not scale.

 

The problem is they are not 'sharing concepts when appropriate' but trying to shoehorn one paradigm everywhere - e.g. fullscreen Metro apps on desktop users in Win 8 was a bad idea. They realized that and have now gone the other way, where Tablet mode in Win 10 still shows a single scrolling list for all apps.

 

This is simply not true. It was always the plan to have Metro apps run in windows and not just full-screen. It was just a matter of time and priorities. In fact, one of the things I did during Win8 was ensure that the system we being built to handle that when the time came. They didn't "realize that" after launch. It wasn't a surprise. The focus for Metro apps in Win8 was for tablets. Maybe it was a mistake to allow them to be used on laptops and desktops, but that's another matter.

 

I really don't understand the last part of what you said there. Tablet mode on Win10 is basically the same immersive UX from Win8 tablets, but with added support for working with desktop apps in that mode. For 2-in-1 devices like the Surface Pro, this makes a lot of sense. For pure tablets, they'll be running Win10 Mobile, which won't have desktop apps at all.

 

'Few stumbles' is vastly understating the extent of the problem - their stubborness to refuse to listen to feedback and force Win 8 touch metaphors cost the company billions of dollars and eroded and tarnished the Windows brand. Why else do you think they are being forced to give away copies of Windows?

 

They've sold hundreds of millions of Win8 licenses. They are not giving away Windows 10. They will still be making money on PC sales just as before. They're giving away the update because that's the world we live in now, and it's actually far better for MS and the ecosystem if they can get everyone onto the newest OS (and perhaps most importantly, browser), and get them all set up to be able to buy things from the store.

 

Would you also say that Apple is being "forced" to give away copies of iOS and OSX? Just because they provide the updates for free?

I never said Start menu was better. Metro is great if they can 1) use it consistently, and 2) fix performance issues.

 

#1 will never happen, there's way too much legacy code still in Win32. They couldn't convert it to .NET and they won't be able to convert it to WinRT either.

#2 will also not likely to happen. WinRT apps with very little functionality are much slower to open and use than normal desktop apps.

 

The ignorance is strong in this one.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

You both misunderstood my example.

 

Win 8/8.1 has a Metro start screen which scales and adapts to phones/tablets/desktop equally well.

 

Win 10 has a start menu with list of apps in a single column on the left. When you make this fullscreen, or in tablet mode, its still a single column, and there's lots of wasted space on the right. This is a UI that's not well designed.

 

That is not correct. The full-screen start menu is most definitely not a single column. It's reorganized a bit and scrolls vertically now with an extra column on the left, but otherwise works largely like the Win8 one.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

 

And this doesn't even address the performance problems WinRT apps have, they are just too slow.

 

Huh? WinRT is a very high performance platform, and there are lots of really fast, responsive apps written on it.

[Ian W]

That is not correct. The full-screen start menu is most definitely not a single column. It's reorganized a bit and scrolls vertically now with an extra column on the left, but otherwise works largely like the Win8 one.

I think that he was referring to the applications listed within "All Apps" which is confined to a single column, unlike in Windows 8.1 where "All Apps" is a full screen interface.

[Dot Matrix]

That is not correct. The full-screen start menu is most definitely not a single column. It's reorganized a bit and scrolls vertically now with an extra column on the left, but otherwise works largely like the Win8 one.

This is one of the biggest issues with Win10, they really should've kept the horizontal layout.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

This is one of the biggest issues with Win10, they really should've kept the horizontal layout.

 

Yep, the mouse scrolls horizontally...because reasons.

 

Sorry, horizontal scroll really doesn't make sense on mouse drive desktops.  The horizontal scrolling Modern UI applications are a pain.

[Dot Matrix]

Yep, the mouse scrolls horizontally...because reasons.

 

Sorry, horizontal scroll really doesn't make sense on mouse drive desktops.  The horizontal scrolling Modern UI applications are a pain.

Mouse direction has nothing to do with it. Down means next and up means previous one way or another. What matters is that traditionally, many languages read horizontally. You don't flip the pages on a book up, do you?

[Ian W]

This is one of the biggest issues with Win10, they really should've kept the horizontal layout.

I can't say I'm a fan of splitting the interface into two separate layouts either. At the moment I am not sure if semantic zoom, swipes for "All Apps," application sorting, et cetera can be implemented because the UI arrangement is almost fundamentally different from Windows 8.1.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Mouse direction has nothing to do with it. Down means next and up means previous one way or another. What matters is that traditionally, many languages read horizontally. You don't flip the pages on a book up, do you?

 

Comparing horizontal scrolling with flipping through pages on a book is a horrible analogy.

 

You do not read these forums by scrolling horizontal do you?  Websites are vertical (with a few exceptions).  Text and reading is horizontal obviously..though the page breaks are smoother by going vertical.  We are so used to reading left to right (or in other cultures right to left) and we make our way downwards.  Introducing horizontal scrolling breaks this rigid convention.  

[blank]

I found the new windows update section confusing. i like to let windows notify me that there are updates, but i like to choose to install them. Mostly due to buggy updates in the past few years.

 

But they changed the wording or something. I can't seem to figure it out on the latest windows 10 tech preview.

 

btw, i hated windows 8, and didnt like 8.1 much, but im kinda liking windows 10 so far. But im not used to these menus.

[libertas83]

You both misunderstood my example.

 

 

Which is the exact reason why the Longhorn reset happened - MS couldn't convert everything over to .NET due to resource/perf issues.

 

From everything I understand about the Longhorn reset, performance of .NET was not at all the issue. There were 3 fundamental problems that resulted in the reset.

 

1.) Security - XP SP2 forced a change in development to introduce a Security Development Lifecycle and devote substantial resources to it.

 

2.) The part you reference is converting to WPF, not just .NET. WPF was a new UI Framework using XAML code, an extension to .NET. The problem was, they were continually changing the new framework while trying to develop new apps on it. In hindsight, it was bound to fail. You have to release a stable version of WPF first to move apps to it.

 

3.) WinFS problems were more of a result of running a version of SQL Server at the OS level. It was still too resource intensive to include it as such a low level so they canceled the OS part but released much of the technology in various places. Filestream in SQL Server 2008 and LINQ in .NET were all fundamental parts from WinFS.

 

 

 

 

This is simply not true. It was always the plan to have Metro apps run in windows and not just full-screen. It was just a matter of time and priorities. In fact, one of the things I did during Win8 was ensure that the system we being built to handle that when the time came. They didn't "realize that" after launch. It wasn't a surprise. The focus for Metro apps in Win8 was for tablets. Maybe it was a mistake to allow them to be used on laptops and desktops, but that's another matter.

 

 

 

Brandon, I think the biggest issues from Windows 8 was lack of communication. You had Paul Thurott saying his sources indicate Metro is the future, desktop is going away, but no clarity in what that means. No MS guys hitting the blogs to explain the roadmap and future. With something as big of a change as Windows 8, it needed a vision to be presented.

 

The mash-up of forcing metro apps on desktop certainly made it worse. If it had been the Start Screen and no other metro with the Start Button, I think it would have been less stressful. Removing choice was another issue.

 

I never had time but I've always thought the most powerful response to the critics of the Start Screen would have been an Ad that shows Windows 95 start menu and how bad it was with a mouse or touchpad. Then, show how much easier and quicker it is to use a mouse in the full screen start. MS needs to prove it otherwise the myths become truths.

 

Yep, the mouse scrolls horizontally...because reasons.

 

Sorry, horizontal scroll really doesn't make sense on mouse drive desktops.  The horizontal scrolling Modern UI applications are a pain.

 

Really? Are you trying to use the horizontal scroll wheel instead of just scrolling normally. A scroll down scrolls very quickly and precisely across the horizontal start screen. Also, the much applauded Zune app is a horizontal scroll and yet everyone loves it! One feature they had there that should have been in the Start Screen is automatic movement to the right as you move right not just at the edge of the screen.

[+Red King Subscriber²]

Huh? WinRT is a very high performance platform, and there are lots of really fast, responsive apps written on it.

That kind of conflicts with the video posted in the pinned thread where the Win 10 calculator opens substantially slower (with a loading screen??) than normal calculator.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Really? Are you trying to use the horizontal scroll wheel instead of just scrolling normally. A scroll down scrolls very quickly and precisely across the horizontal start screen. Also, the much applauded Zune app is a horizontal scroll and yet everyone loves it! One feature they had there that should have been in the Start Screen is automatic movement to the right as you move right not just at the edge of the screen.

 

The implementation of horizontal scrolling violates the multiple panning rule in the sense that one extra level of direction change is needed.  This in turn results in an uncomfortable broken rhythm when trying to access information.

 

For most languages, we read either left to right or right to left.

 

At the end of a line we go down and left in a straight line.

 

So the pattern is L>R; D>L; L>R; D>L; at the end of the page

[JakeB]

It's all part of the dumbing down of windows, to attract the lowest common denominator. Some people learn from their mistakes, microsoft simply have not. Worse, for them, they thought they could pull off a sleight of hand, claiming to return to and fix the desktop, all the while sneaking even more of the metro nonsense in thru the back door. Alas, their poorly executed plan has been well exposed.

 

No, microsoft, resistance to metro will NOT go away.

It doesn't matter Metro now runs in the desktop in Windws. MS actually moved the camera app into Windows with Windows 8. Camera drivers issues seem to be some of the biggest driver issues  with desktop camera apps.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

That kind of conflicts with the video posted in the pinned thread where the Win 10 calculator opens substantially slower (with a loading screen??) than normal calculator.

 

It's still basically an alpha (or at best beta) OS. The splash screen is an OS thing, not part of the app, and appears for a minimum amount of time regardless of how fast the app starts. In Win8 this was a bit less noticeable as the splash screen was mostly present during the spinning tile animation. In fact that was basically its purpose. I have to assume they'll be changing this behavior on Win10. The broken nature of the splash screen APIs, and the fact that this is very noticeable in Spartan's startup, are two reasons I'm extremely confident it will change :-)

[Dot Matrix]

It's still basically an alpha (or at best beta) OS. The splash screen is an OS thing, not part of the app, and appears for a minimum amount of time regardless of how fast the app starts. In Win8 this was a bit less noticeable as the splash screen was mostly present during the spinning tile animation. In fact that was basically its purpose. I have to assume they'll be changing this behavior on Win10. The broken nature of the splash screen APIs, and the fact that this is very noticeable in Spartan's startup, are two reasons I'm extremely confident it will change :-)

Good. I really hate those splash screens. Never sure why those needed to come back to begin with.