[OFFICIAL] Windows 10 Insider Program

[HawkMan]

I do hope the final version will change how the notification center quick settings worked.

 

in8.1 I could change screen brightness by clinking the screen icon and sliding up and down, now I need to click it and be taken to display settings, and then I can change it on another slider.

 

it's also annoying so many controls are moved away from the bottom and the bottom corners, requiring much more hand movement on a tablet.

 

tablet mode is also buggy, when posting on neowin, the keyboard doesn't displace the browser windows

[Quillz]

I like the look of that new Music app. Reminds me a bit of GNOME 3's new Music app, which keeps things very simple.

[PGHammer]

I disagree.  I think the problem is Microsoft trying to merge two/three different devices under the same UI/UX.

Couldn't that same argument be made about desktop-formfactor and portable-formfactor PCs? (By portable-formfactor, I'm not talking tablets, slates, or even phablets - I'm talking laptops and notebooks - with OR without touch.)

One area where Modern (as in RT) apps are getting more use (from me, anyway) is on my two legacy notebooks, and the reason is rather simple - less screen real-estate compared to my desktop.

However, because I dared to bring that up, somehow my two legacy notebooks got confused with tablets - despite both being referred to in excruciating detail as what they are - legacy notebooks that shipped with either Vista or 7 on them.

There has never - as in ever - been a different UI or UX for laptops and notebooks in terms of Windows - instead, they have the same UI (and UX) as their desktop-formfactor counterparts. There ARE compromises that those of us that USE laptops and notebooks are having to make with a UI designed more for physically larger screens. Tablets are one thing - however, I prefer a larger screen. Thirteen inches is the lowest I would even CONSIDER running any version of Windows on - which matches the screen size of my smallest notebook. My other notebook (the one lacking Hyper-V) is my preferred screen size for a notebook - fifteen inches. For non-development work (again, no Hyper-V) this will be my primary notebook - due entirely to the physically larger screen. Neither notebook is planned to be a desktop replacement - the screen sizes are physically too small for that job, for one. However, Modern/RT is not really designed for large-screen work; however, it's a better fit for laptops and notebooks for the SAME reason it's a killer option for tablets/slates/phones - far less screen size than desktops. (I'm talking physical screen size - NOT resolution.)

It's also why I have asked - repeatedly - about those of us here on Neowin that HAVE laptops and notebooks and the application mix on them.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Couldn't that same argument be made about desktop-formfactor and portable-formfactor PCs? (By portable-formfactor, I'm not talking tablets, slates, or even phablets - I'm talking laptops and notebooks - with OR without touch.)

One area where Modern (as in RT) apps are getting more use (from me, anyway) is on my two legacy notebooks, and the reason is rather simple - less screen real-estate compared to my desktop.

However, because I dared to bring that up, somehow my two legacy notebooks got confused with tablets - despite both being referred to in excruciating detail as what they are - legacy notebooks that shipped with either Vista or 7 on them.

There has never - as in ever - been a different UI or UX for laptops and notebooks in terms of Windows - instead, they have the same UI (and UX) as their desktop-formfactor counterparts. There ARE compromises that those of us that USE laptops and notebooks are having to make with a UI designed more for physically larger screens. Tablets are one thing - however, I prefer a larger screen. Thirteen inches is the lowest I would even CONSIDER running any version of Windows on - which matches the screen size of my smallest notebook. My other notebook (the one lacking Hyper-V) is my preferred screen size for a notebook - fifteen inches. For non-development work (again, no Hyper-V) this will be my primary notebook - due entirely to the physically larger screen. Neither notebook is planned to be a desktop replacement - the screen sizes are physically too small for that job, for one. However, Modern/RT is not really designed for large-screen work; however, it's a better fit for laptops and notebooks for the SAME reason it's a killer option for tablets/slates/phones - far less screen size than desktops. (I'm talking physical screen size - NOT resolution.)

It's also why I have asked - repeatedly - about those of us here on Neowin that HAVE laptops and notebooks and the application mix on them.

 

Not really.  Windows 7, and UI/UX is perfect on my Dell 15 inch (1080p) notebook (which is the smallest screen I'd consider).  I have Windows 8.1 on my ASUS 15inch (720p) notebook and unlike you, I think it is horrible with regards to the wasted screen space Modern UI confiscates.  It has got to the point now to where the only Modern app I run is Food & Drinks which is handy when I'm cooking.

 

Microsoft messed up by introducing this phone/tablet friendly OS onto desktops/notebooks with larger screen sizes.  You can see them backtracking on some items, however, they are introducing new ones which are harming (from comments I've read) the tablet/SP users.  This is why they should have kept this UIs separate and split among "screens size/resolution less than..." ... "screen size/resolution more than...".  

 

I know Windows 10 isn't nearly finished ... but it seems like they (Microsoft) are jumping all over the place right now.

 

It is apparent that one UI/UX really doesn't fit all.  Modern UI is great for small devices ... horrendous (in my opinion) for larger screens (including 15 inch notebooks).

[briangw]

These unofficial, leaked builds...If you upgrade to one, are you able to upgrade to an official fast build later? 

[netty2014]

whats with the floppy drive icon in the new build number who uses them ?

[Quillz]

These unofficial, leaked builds...If you upgrade to one, are you able to upgrade to an official fast build later? 

I believe it was stated at some point if you use the leaked builds, you won't be able to upgrade to subsequent builds.

 

whats with the floppy drive icon in the new build number who uses them ?

People may not use floppies anymore, but it's still a widely understood metaphor for saving.

[gohpep]

I believe it was stated at some point if you use the leaked builds, you won't be able to upgrade to subsequent builds.

No, that was only a problem in 9901. 10036 had no such problem.

[netty2014]

i dont and haven't seen a floppy disk on sale in my city for 5 years so who are these floppy warriors lol !

[HawkMan]

i dont and haven't seen a floppy disk on sale in my city for 5 years so who are these floppy warriors lol !

 

There is no good replacement for the floppy for a save icon. and since floppies are no longer used that makes them perfect iconography for saving since that's all it means nowadays. 

[netty2014]

so im guessing its just a save icon from what you just said so why not update it a bit as a save icon like dl got its own icon the down arrow above the underscore line why not a tick above a smile or something along those lines ? 

[PGHammer]

Not really.  Windows 7, and UI/UX is perfect on my Dell 15 inch (1080p) notebook (which is the smallest screen I'd consider).  I have Windows 8.1 on my ASUS 15inch (720p) notebook and unlike you, I think it is horrible with regards to the wasted screen space Modern UI confiscates.  It has got to the point now to where the only Modern app I run is Food & Drinks which is handy when I'm cooking.

 

Microsoft messed up by introducing this phone/tablet friendly OS onto desktops/notebooks with larger screen sizes.  You can see them backtracking on some items, however, they are introducing new ones which are harming (from comments I've read) the tablet/SP users.  This is why they should have kept this UIs separate and split among "screens size/resolution less than..." ... "screen size/resolution more than...".  

 

I know Windows 10 isn't nearly finished ... but it seems like they (Microsoft) are jumping all over the place right now.

 

It is apparent that one UI/UX really doesn't fit all.  Modern UI is great for small devices ... horrendous (in my opinion) for larger screens (including 15 inch notebooks).

Then you wind up with non-compatible operating systems - putting yourself up the creek (and that is one reason why RT as an OS failed).

Windows (as an OS mind you - regardless of UI) relies on a common set of software and, for the largest part, runs on a specific generic set of hardware. Versions of Windows that don't meet those core metrics don't succeed. (The only reason Windows Phone has ANY traction is that metric didn't COMPLETELY cross over to smartphones; however, even Windows Phone doesn't have the traction that Microsoft would prefer, though it DOES have more traction outside the US and Europe as opposed to inside the US and Europe.)

Modern/RT (as an API) works on all but the largest screen sizes - however those largest screen sizes are the closest to their desktop counterparts in terms of capabilities. Also, look at the developers OF Modern/RT for the most part - how many of them have any experience with desktop development? With very few exceptions, most of the developers of Modern/RT software came from mobile development - not Win32/desktop development.

The real issue with Windows 8+ is personalizing the UI/UX - not everyone works the same way. For all the "hateraid" when it comes to Modern (which we agree has issues at the top end of screen sizes) it DOES have a place on screen sizes larger than tablets (and is still a market that Microsoft can't ignore). Still, you CAN use desktop (non-Modern) software in 10 - or 8.x, for that matter; what is with the meme that such is all that difficult?

My issue with the entire argument is that it threatens not JUST tablets, but backward-compatibility as a whole - and especially with laptops and notebooks that have screen sizes smaller than fifteen inches. The middle-sized screen market has a use for Modern, and it's not insignificant, either. There are even uses for Modern in terms of larger screens - just not the same ones that are for smaller screens.

In short, the issue is, in fact, "compromise" - the problem is that opinions everywhere (not just computing) have become very polar (in a mental-health sense), and compromise is largely unwanted, even where it CAN be reached.

[HawkMan]

so im guessing its just a save icon from what you just said so why not update it a bit as a save icon like dl got its own icon the down arrow above the underscore line why not a tick above a smile or something along those lines ? 

 

what.... that would make no sense, everyone, whether they know what a floppy is or not, knows what the floppy icon is. 

[BajiRav]

This is weird. I got a feedback question "How likely are you to recommend Mozilla Firefox to someone you know?"

[Jackaluichi]

This is weird. I got a feedback question "How likely are you to recommend Mozilla Firefox to someone you know?"

That just made my day! LOL!

[MikeM97]

This is weird. I got a feedback question "How likely are you to recommend Mozilla Firefox to someone you know?"

 

Great ! Which was your answer ?

[Dashel]

Riddle me this for those who think the Start Menu is 'clautrophobic', do you also feel the same way about the modern settings flyout?  Its virtually the same size yet I don't hear anything from you guys on that.  Its inconsistent.

 

Why is it the proponents of 'Modern' seem to understand it the least?

[MikeM97]

Riddle me this for those who think the Start Menu is 'clautrophobic', do you also feel the same way about the modern settings flyout?  Its virtually the same size yet I don't hear anything from you guys on that.  Its inconsistent.

 

Why is it the proponents of 'Modern' seem to understand it the least?

 

Beautyful asked question .

I'd like to know their anwer too ...

[Dot Matrix]

Riddle me this for those who think the Start Menu is 'clautrophobic', do you also feel the same way about the modern settings flyout? Its virtually the same size yet I don't hear anything from you guys on that. Its inconsistent.

Why is it the proponents of 'Modern' seem to understand it the least?

They're isn't a dozen and one options in the settings fly outs like there is in start. These make acceptable use of white space.

Settings also don't force you to play hide and seek either, by burying objects.

[Quillz]

so im guessing its just a save icon from what you just said so why not update it a bit as a save icon like dl got its own icon the down arrow above the underscore line why not a tick above a smile or something along those lines ? 

Because why? Even people who have never seen or used a floppy understand the metaphor. Changing the save icon to something else is going to make people wonder where the save icon has gone to. Floppies have been equated with saving since the dawn of the GUI, without exaggeration.

[Ian W]

Riddle me this for those who think the Start Menu is 'clautrophobic', do you also feel the same way about the modern settings flyout?  Its virtually the same size yet I don't hear anything from you guys on that.  Its inconsistent.

For starters the flyout is not "virtually the same size" when compared to "All Apps" in Windows 10, as we shall see.

Secondly the new interfaces

[netty2014]

Then you wind up with non-compatible operating systems - putting yourself up the creek (and that is one reason why RT as an OS failed).

Windows (as an OS mind you - regardless of UI) relies on a common set of software and, for the largest part, runs on a specific generic set of hardware. Versions of Windows that don't meet those core metrics don't succeed. (The only reason Windows Phone has ANY traction is that metric didn't COMPLETELY cross over to smartphones; however, even Windows Phone doesn't have the traction that Microsoft would prefer, though it DOES have more traction outside the US and Europe as opposed to inside the US and Europe.)

Modern/RT (as an API) works on all but the largest screen sizes - however those largest screen sizes are the closest to their desktop counterparts in terms of capabilities. Also, look at the developers OF Modern/RT for the most part - how many of them have any experience with desktop development? With very few exceptions, most of the developers of Modern/RT software came from mobile development - not Win32/desktop development.

The real issue with Windows 8+ is personalizing the UI/UX - not everyone works the same way. For all the "hateraid" when it comes to Modern (which we agree has issues at the top end of screen sizes) it DOES have a place on screen sizes larger than tablets (and is still a market that Microsoft can't ignore). Still, you CAN use desktop (non-Modern) software in 10 - or 8.x, for that matter; what is with the meme that such is all that difficult?

My issue with the entire argument is that it threatens not JUST tablets, but backward-compatibility as a whole - and especially with laptops and notebooks that have screen sizes smaller than fifteen inches. The middle-sized screen market has a use for Modern, and it's not insignificant, either. There are even uses for Modern in terms of larger screens - just not the same ones that are for smaller screens.

In short, the issue is, in fact, "compromise" - the problem is that opinions everywhere (not just computing) have become very polar (in a mental-health sense), and compromise is largely unwanted, even where it CAN be reached.

i understand the enigma into this rather large and apparent feed back answer to a simple icon question as windows 8 on the whole is very unstable the UI could do with a lot more work and my thoughts are to make it border less and as transparent or transparent as the users are to see whats going on with the latest build seeing windows in different desktop sizes just means getting or putting it on a different monitor as for it cross platform mess i dont think its any good on a phone or a tab i think they should go design something else and leave wind blows to the computers the real ones like desktops and laptops well make it a bit less resource hungry for low end laptops in any case there a lot that could be put into it as well like a simplified virtual machine as i see novice users just installing it and using the new windows 10 OS as there main OS and not really thinking about it before testing it on a VM or some other equivalent virtual environment i do see your point on many or the points you made in this rather large statement your other point is you ether love it or you hate it are you comparing windows 10 to mar-mite sorry i had to get that in and as for mental health issues i am sure the drugs company's of the world are selling more drugs nowadays to silicon valley to come up this all these ideas in such a short time of circa 25 years 

[netty2014]

This is weird. I got a feedback question "How likely are you to recommend Mozilla Firefox to someone you know?"

chrome is my choice zilla have flash issues and its slow and this has nothing to do with a simple icon question lol when the worlds gone mad 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Then you wind up with non-compatible operating systems - putting yourself up the creek (and that is one reason why RT as an OS failed).

Windows (as an OS mind you - regardless of UI) relies on a common set of software and, for the largest part, runs on a specific generic set of hardware. Versions of Windows that don't meet those core metrics don't succeed. (The only reason Windows Phone has ANY traction is that metric didn't COMPLETELY cross over to smartphones; however, even Windows Phone doesn't have the traction that Microsoft would prefer, though it DOES have more traction outside the US and Europe as opposed to inside the US and Europe.)

Modern/RT (as an API) works on all but the largest screen sizes - however those largest screen sizes are the closest to their desktop counterparts in terms of capabilities. Also, look at the developers OF Modern/RT for the most part - how many of them have any experience with desktop development? With very few exceptions, most of the developers of Modern/RT software came from mobile development - not Win32/desktop development.

The real issue with Windows 8+ is personalizing the UI/UX - not everyone works the same way. For all the "hateraid" when it comes to Modern (which we agree has issues at the top end of screen sizes) it DOES have a place on screen sizes larger than tablets (and is still a market that Microsoft can't ignore). Still, you CAN use desktop (non-Modern) software in 10 - or 8.x, for that matter; what is with the meme that such is all that difficult?

My issue with the entire argument is that it threatens not JUST tablets, but backward-compatibility as a whole - and especially with laptops and notebooks that have screen sizes smaller than fifteen inches. The middle-sized screen market has a use for Modern, and it's not insignificant, either. There are even uses for Modern in terms of larger screens - just not the same ones that are for smaller screens.

In short, the issue is, in fact, "compromise" - the problem is that opinions everywhere (not just computing) have become very polar (in a mental-health sense), and compromise is largely unwanted, even where it CAN be reached.

 

Apologies, but I'm not entirely sure if you were agreeing/disagreeing or what point you were trying to make.  

 

Modern API can be included w/o causing incompatibility issues.  

 

I do not necessarily have a huge problem with Modern UI, I do not like it but really do not care if it is on the computer or not.  However, the Modern UI (start screen) was a mistake to be a mandatory replacement (aside from 3rd party solutions) on the desktop.  Though MS is attempting to backtrack on that mistake (i.e. return of the start menu) it may ultimately help desktop/larger screens but hurt smaller screens.  

 

This is why you shouldn't have the same UI across the various devices.  Same APIs...sure...but not the same UI.  

[Dashel]

For starters the flyout is not "virtually the same size" when compared to "All Apps" in Windows 10, as we shall see.

 

 

It clearly is.  Start is just a little shorter and moved too far right currently.  If they widen it left with the same relative width then it will match up perfectly.  Purpose has nothing to do with it.  I'd wager they will extend the active area to correlate with the other modern apps and remove the gutter.