New PS4 (PS4.5/PS4k)?


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+Asmodai

I'm surprised there isn't a thread discussing this yet but it seems to be all the rage in other tech sites so I figured I'd open it for discussion here.

 

Personally I don't buy that Sony is going to release an updated version of the PS4 with increased CPU/GPU power.  I think doing so would be a horrible idea for a console and fragment their customer base.  Furthermore I see no reason for them to do so when they are already winning the current generation.

 

What I DO think they are going to do is release an updated PS4 with the APU shrunk down to 14nm/16nm FinFet process.  This is just like how the PS3 launched at 90nm and shrunk to 65nm and finally 45/40nm.  That APU should be clocked exactly the same as the launch consoles though and maintain identical performance with the benefits being it's smaller (more chips per silicon wafer thus cheaper/smaller footprint on motherboard), cooler (smaller/quieter cooling system), and uses less power (smaller power supply).  Again this is nothing new as prior consoles have shrunk their CPU/GPU with later revisions.

 

As far as 4k there is no way they are going to put a Zen CPU or Polaris GPU in the new console and have it affordable, if they put a Zen/Polaris APU in it would be a PS5 (and may very well be what the PS5 is but it's not coming out in 2016/2017).  Rumors (that I don't buy) say the GPU is 2x more powerful, even if that were true that's not enough for 4k gaming.  The PS4 currently struggles to hit 1080p@60fps and 4k is 4x the resolution of 1080p not 2x.  HBM2 is also not going to happen this year or next on a PlayStation revision.  The PS4 is not going to upgrade to more or a different kind of RAM.  What it will do is shrink the process of the existing RAM so it requires less chips, etc. just like the APU benefits noted above.  In fact it's already done this once when they switched from 16 4Gb Chips to 8 8Gb 20nm chips as noted here:

http://www.dualshockers.com/2015/07/01/firsy-teardown-of-ps4-cuh-1200-new-model-shows-more-differences-with-cuh-1100/

 

Sony may throw in the necessary hardware upgrades to play back Ultra HD Blu-Ray discs (4k) and 4k@60fps streaming services such as YouTube, Netflix, and Amazon Prime.  This will likely NOT be available for games though.  The upgraded optical drive may make game installs from disc faster but that's about it because games actually play off of the HDD not the disc.  An HDMI 2.0 port would be required and they may throw in HEVC hardware and just not make it accessible to games (streaming non-gaming apps and Ultra HD Blu-Ray discs only) but even then maybe they've just written software to allow the APU to do the required HEVC decode.

 

They also aren't going to upgrade the APU for VR.  One of the big pluses people talk about with respect to PlayStation VR is the size of the install base to offset the inferior processing power.  A revised PS4 still isn't going to be able to compete on the performance front with a strong gaming PC and so all upgrading the APU is going to do is make the install base that was their one edge obsolete.  PS VR NEEDS to work, and work well, on launch consoles not on some new upgraded device no one even has yet.

 

 

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MightyJordan

There's another rumour going around that Microsoft's planning on doing the same with the Xbox One. The Sega 32X just springs to my mind (not exactly the same, but it's the best I can think of); if either of them come out with an upgraded console, it'll almost certainly flop. Nintendo's already done this with the "New" 3DS, but there's only a small handful of games that are completely exclusive to it, so it's not really fragmented the user base. I don't think Microsoft or Sony would play it as conservative as Nintendo have; they'd probably go full aggression and try to leave the current consoles behind.

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+warwagon

This is my thoughts on the PS4 update

 

 

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The Evil Overlord

Some tech rumour sites havepencilled in a november launch for the new ps4 to coincide with the launch of the headset

but like most rumours, I took it with a pinch of salt

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President Devil
1 minute ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Some tech rumour sites havepencilled in a november launch for the new ps4 to coincide with the launch of the headset

but like most rumours, I took it with a pinch of salt

I think the latest one was a Q1 2017 release so that the stock of current PS4 models can be eliminated during the PSVR overhype Holiday rush, giving an extra big middle finger to current adopters. Pinch of salt indeed, but if true, LOL!

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MightyJordan
1 minute ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Some tech rumour sites havepencilled in a november launch for the new ps4 to coincide with the launch of the headset

but like most rumours, I took it with a pinch of salt

Yeah, I'm taking rumours on both sides with a pinch of salt until E3; surely they're not mad enough to practically kill off their current consoles after just three years?

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The Evil Overlord
1 minute ago, MightyJordan said:

Yeah, I'm taking rumours on both sides with a pinch of salt until E3; surely they're not mad enough to practically kill off their current consoles after just three years?

Personally, I'd have waited until the next gen, consoles have always been behind with tech, but that's the nature of the beast, cutting edge tv's are behind in tech when compared to cutting edge monitors (refresh rates, sync etc..)

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President Devil

 

3 minutes ago, The Evil Overlord said:

Personally, I'd have waited until the next gen, consoles have always been behind with tech, but that's the nature of the beast, cutting edge tv's are behind in tech when compared to cutting edge monitors (refresh rates, sync etc..)

The power gap has never been this large this early in a console's life cycle though. The console manufacturers went very cheap this gen and that very likely led to this. They are hoping to apply the itterative cell phone model to consoles.

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+Asmodai
3 minutes ago, President Devil said:

 

The power gap has never been this large this early in a console's life cycle though. The console manufacturers went very cheap this gen and that very likely led to this. They are hoping to apply the itterative cell phone model to consoles.

While I agree that console developers went cheap this generation I don't think it led to this.  Even top tier GPUs didn't have hardware HEVC decoding when the PS4/Xbox One launched.  The Ultra HD Blu-Ray Standard wasn't a thing when they launched either, the player are JUST NOW, years after this console generation launched, coming out.  The consoles are just a victim of having launched right before a major shift video tech.  It doesn't matter how much money they were prepared to throw at it because the 4k standards and such just didn't exist yet when they launched.

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The Evil Overlord
7 minutes ago, President Devil said:

 

The power gap has never been this large this early in a console's life cycle though. The console manufacturers went very cheap this gen and that very likely led to this. They are hoping to apply the itterative cell phone model to consoles.

Well if this IS the case, screw the exclusives, I'd build a gaming grade pc spec blu ray player, replace my home cinema, get a wireless controller, keyboard and mouse, and game on my 50 inch

(Actually, I've been thinking of building such a blu ray pc home cinema system for a while,I've burned out one of the 5.1 bdp's I've owned, currently on my second one)

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President Devil
5 minutes ago, Asmodai said:

While I agree that console developers went cheap this generation I don't think it led to this.  Even top tier GPUs didn't have hardware HEVC decoding when the PS4/Xbox One launched.  The Ultra HD Blu-Ray Standard wasn't a thing when they launched either, the player are JUST NOW, years after this console generation launched, coming out.  The consoles are just a victim of having launched right before a major shift video tech.  It doesn't matter how much money they were prepared to throw at it because the 4k standards and such just didn't exist yet when they launched.

They launched before a major shift in processor manufacturing as well. Perhaps they simply should have waited on the current 14/16nm process. But nonetheless, these consoles are way below the performance curve of the PC compared to last gen.

A new revision solely for UHD Blu-Ray also isn't worth it in a declining Optical Disc market and possibly annoying new DRM that comes with it (online key retrieval), there's more to it than that and the rumors seem to corroborate it.

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+Asmodai
1 minute ago, President Devil said:

They launched before a major shift in processor manufacturing as well. Perhaps they simply should have waited on the current 14/16nm process.

Most talk I've heard seems to think last generation lasted too long as it is.  The most advanced PS3 revision is 45nm/40nm CPU/GPU after having launched at 90nm/90nm so the 28nm that the current gen consoles launched at was a tech upgrade.  AMD's 28nm GCN 1.0 GPUs launched in Jan. of 2012 though so consoles based off of that tech should have launched a year earlier than they did.

That said the PS4 is the first PlayStation to NOT launch with a new optical tech.  The PS1 was the first CD drive console, the PS2 was the first DVD, the PS3 was the first Blu-Ray, the PS4 is just more of the same (and don't say it's the first one for streaming because the PS3 does streaming as well).

 

1 minute ago, President Devil said:

But nonetheless, these consoles are way below the performance curve of the PC compared to last gen.

I agree but I don't think they see their competition as PCs.  They're better than the last generation consoles.  Wii taught them that people will buy low spec hardware and Sony got burned pretty bad with the PS3 at launch for daring to put bleeding edge tech in their console, they weren't going to make that mistake again (nor could they given their finanical trouble at the time).  This generation is the first console generation where everyone made a profit on the hardware at launch (thanks Nintendo!)  Historically they sold launch consoles at a loss and made up for it in overpriced peripherals, their cut of the game sales on the platform, and over time by reducing manufacturing costs... now they make a profit on day 1.

 

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hdca18
1 hour ago, Asmodai said:

I'm surprised there isn't a thread discussing this yet but it seems to be all the rage in other tech sites so I figured I'd open it for discussion here.

 

Personally I don't buy that Sony is going to release an updated version of the PS4 with increased CPU/GPU power.  I think doing so would be a horrible idea for a console and fragment their customer base.  Furthermore I see no reason for them to do so when they are already winning the current generation.

 

What I DO think they are going to do is release an updated PS4 with the APU shrunk down to 14nm/16nm FinFet process.  This is just like how the PS3 launched at 90nm and shrunk to 65nm and finally 45/40nm.  That APU should be clocked exactly the same as the launch consoles though and maintain identical performance with the benefits being it's smaller (more chips per silicon wafer thus cheaper/smaller footprint on motherboard), cooler (smaller/quieter cooling system), and uses less power (smaller power supply).  Again this is nothing new as prior consoles have shrunk their CPU/GPU with later revisions.

 

As far as 4k there is no way they are going to put a Zen CPU or Polaris GPU in the new console and have it affordable, if they put a Zen/Polaris APU in it would be a PS5 (and may very well be what the PS5 is but it's not coming out in 2016/2017).  Rumors (that I don't buy) say the GPU is 2x more powerful, even if that were true that's not enough for 4k gaming.  The PS4 currently struggles to hit 1080p@60fps and 4k is 4x the resolution of 1080p not 2x.  HBM2 is also not going to happen this year or next on a PlayStation revision.  The PS4 is not going to upgrade to more or a different kind of RAM.  What it will do is shrink the process of the existing RAM so it requires less chips, etc. just like the APU benefits noted above.  In fact it's already done this once when they switched from 16 4Gb Chips to 8 8Gb 20nm chips as noted here:

http://www.dualshockers.com/2015/07/01/firsy-teardown-of-ps4-cuh-1200-new-model-shows-more-differences-with-cuh-1100/

 

Sony may throw in the necessary hardware upgrades to play back Ultra HD Blu-Ray discs (4k) and 4k@60fps streaming services such as YouTube, Netflix, and Amazon Prime.  This will likely NOT be available for games though.  The upgraded optical drive may make game installs from disc faster but that's about it because games actually play off of the HDD not the disc.  An HDMI 2.0 port would be required and they may throw in HEVC hardware and just not make it accessible to games (streaming non-gaming apps and Ultra HD Blu-Ray discs only) but even then maybe they've just written software to allow the APU to do the required HEVC decode.

 

They also aren't going to upgrade the APU for VR.  One of the big pluses people talk about with respect to PlayStation VR is the size of the install base to offset the inferior processing power.  A revised PS4 still isn't going to be able to compete on the performance front with a strong gaming PC and so all upgrading the APU is going to do is make the install base that was their one edge obsolete.  PS VR NEEDS to work, and work well, on launch consoles not on some new upgraded device no one even has yet.

 

 

Correct. PS4.5 is nothing but rumour. It is not happening. 

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President Devil

Exactly soniq, where there is smoke, there is fire.

8 hours ago, Asmodai said:

Most talk I've heard seems to think last generation lasted too long as it is.  The most advanced PS3 revision is 45nm/40nm CPU/GPU after having launched at 90nm/90nm so the 28nm that the current gen consoles launched at was a tech upgrade.  AMD's 28nm GCN 1.0 GPUs launched in Jan. of 2012 though so consoles based off of that tech should have launched a year earlier than they did.

That said the PS4 is the first PlayStation to NOT launch with a new optical tech.  The PS1 was the first CD drive console, the PS2 was the first DVD, the PS3 was the first Blu-Ray, the PS4 is just more of the same (and don't say it's the first one for streaming because the PS3 does streaming as well).

 

I agree but I don't think they see their competition as PCs.  They're better than the last generation consoles.  Wii taught them that people will buy low spec hardware and Sony got burned pretty bad with the PS3 at launch for daring to put bleeding edge tech in their console, they weren't going to make that mistake again (nor could they given their finanical trouble at the time).  This generation is the first console generation where everyone made a profit on the hardware at launch (thanks Nintendo!)  Historically they sold launch consoles at a loss and made up for it in overpriced peripherals, their cut of the game sales on the platform, and over time by reducing manufacturing costs... now they make a profit on day 1.

 

PCs are definitely competing with the consoles, especially among the hardcore gamers who use their consoles as nothing but exclusives machines. It's a mostly multiplatform games world now, AAA exclusives are mattering less and less and the "give me 1080p60fps or give me death" scenario only happens on PC where YOU control the upgrade time and not the console manufacturers.

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+Audioboxer
12 hours ago, hdca18 said:

Correct. PS4.5 is nothing but rumour. It is not happening. 

Sorry but it's looking pretty damn likely given all the leaks.

 

What is not clear is if it's going to be positioned as simply 4K video and something to help VR, or if it is a bigger overall update which can potentially effect all games. That will only be cleared up by an official announcement.

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dipsylalapo
3 minutes ago, Audioboxer said:

Sorry but it's looking pretty damn likely given all the leaks.

 

What is not clear is if it's going to be positioned as simply 4K video and something to help VR, or if it is a bigger overall update which can potentially effect all games. That will only be cleared up by an official announcement.

If it's a bigger update, I don't think it's 4.5, it's 5!

 

Reading through the Neogaf post, I'm struggling on how they're able to provide good 4K on less than $500.

 

I still think they should push for 1080/60 with all the bells and whistles for both consoles. 

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+Audioboxer
30 minutes ago, dipsylalapo said:

If it's a bigger update, I don't think it's 4.5, it's 5!

 

Reading through the Neogaf post, I'm struggling on how they're able to provide good 4K on less than $500.

 

I still think they should push for 1080/60 with all the bells and whistles for both consoles. 

They can't. 4K would be for video, and maybe the occasional indie game. Rest of the power would just help VR at 1080p and games at 60FPS.

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dipsylalapo
7 minutes ago, Audioboxer said:

They can't. 4K would be for video, and maybe the occasional indie game. Rest of the power would just help VR at 1080p and games at 60FPS.

Right I see. That's fair enough. Let's play the waiting game.

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soniqstylz

Supposedly an official announcement is coming after launch of VR, maybe PSX.  Dunno where I read that.

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+Asmodai
4 hours ago, Audioboxer said:

They can't. 4K would be for video, and maybe the occasional indie game. Rest of the power would just help VR at 1080p and games at 60FPS.

If they do that then PS VR is DOA. (at least this generation)

The whole advantage of PS VR is that there is likely to be a 40+ million consoles out there in gamers hands ready to power it when it launches.

If they turn around and tell those 40+ million gamers: "sure you can run it but it's going to be a substandard experience unless you buy a new console" then PS VR is done. (and rightfully so)

The install base for the full PS VR experience with PS4k/PS4.5 is ZERO right now, and not likely to hit 40+ million any time soon (if at all).

VR is iffy enough already if it's going to meet with mainstream success or not, it's absolutely going to fail on PlayStation is Sony further fragment the market between those who have the new upgraded console and those who don't.

EVE: Valkyrie is one title that is rumored to support the new upgrade.  It's a competitive space dogfighter so am I going to be at a disadvantage running it on my launch PS4 compared to someone else who has the PS4.5/PS4k?  If so that's a HUGE issue and as far as I'm concerned a dealbreaker for me.  I'm pretty sure right now I'm going to get the PS VR (probably early next year unless I can swing it for Christmas) but if they tell me to get the best experience I have to buy a new console in addition to the VR headset then Sony can shove it.  I seriously doubt I'm alone in that feeling.

 

I have no doubt Sony is working on a new console with an upgraded APU, maybe based on a Zen CPU, maybe using a Polaris GPU, maybe even having HBM2 memory.  That console though will become the PS5 and come out in 2018+ not late 2016 or 2017 and be the PS4k/PS4.5.  It likely will be backwards compatible with the PS4.

 

I have no doubt Sony is working on a new console with an die shrunk 14/16nm APU that will be a new "slim" revision of the PS4.  Maybe it will do 4k video streaming and Ultra HD (4k) Blu-Ray disc playback (because those don't effect gameplay) but it won't have a faster CPU, GPU, or Memory (smaller, cooler, less power hungry, yeah but not faster) and still be a PS4.

 

 

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President Devil
5 hours ago, dipsylalapo said:

If it's a bigger update, I don't think it's 4.5, it's 5!

 

Reading through the Neogaf post, I'm struggling on how they're able to provide good 4K on less than $500.

 

I still think they should push for 1080/60 with all the bells and whistles for both consoles. 

Of course it's 5, they'll just market it differently to trap the sheep and make the current buyers feel less remorseful about their inferior purchase.

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Chrysalis

My thoughts?

 

Personally I think a new console this soon after ps4 release is sticking two fingers up at existing ps4 owners, especially those who purchased within last 12 months.

 

The people supporting a gpu upgraded ps4.5/ps5 Seems to be people affiliated to dev industry or media industry, two industries that would benefit from such a move, some consumers like the idea as well but I suppose its people who have money to burn on newer generation hardware every couple of years and the sort of gamers who only play the very latest games.

 

What seems certain is if sony pull of such a move they will split the ps4 community you going to get some happy people buying these on day one, and some very angry people who might call it a day on sony and perhaps consoles altogether.

 

I think with what has been leaked and where it got leaked, there is truth to the rumours, however i think this is a deliberate leak by sony to test public reaction, meaning the rumours are accurate but will only be carried out if they feel the risk isnt too high to the marketshare.

 

Aside from the length of time the ps4 has been out for, the amount of games released for it is a pittance, especially first party games.  It can be considered barely out the door.  This will be most poorly supported console in sony's history if the rumours become real.

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+Asmodai
1 hour ago, President Devil said:

Of course it's 5, they'll just market it differently to trap the sheep and make the current buyers feel less remorseful about their inferior purchase.

It just makes not sense to me.  The PS4 sales are setting records and STILL increasing year over year, why would you undercut that with a new console?  If ANYONE were to do this I'd think it would make MORE sense if MS were to do it since they have the lower performance console with lower sales.  It would give them a way to one up Sony and there would be less existing users to upset.  I'm not saying I think it would be a good idea for them either though, I think it's a horrible idea all the way around but at least it would make more sense to me in the MS case.

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Jason S.
1 hour ago, President Devil said:

Of course it's 5, they'll just market it differently to trap the sheep and make the current buyers feel less remorseful about their inferior purchase.

:rolleyes:

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