Jerry Jones gives Cowboys players ultimatum: Stand for anthem or sit for game

[Circaflex]

4 minutes ago, techbeck said:

if you cannot understand what that means to the men and women that fought for this country and which allowed these players to make the money they are making, then goodbye.  It started off as a protest to police injustice but now it has turned in to something else.  Needs to stop.

Serious question, did you serve? Kneeling is not disrespecting the flag; trying to stop a peaceful protest is disrespectful.  Vets fought for equal rights and the ability to protest your government. If you did not serve, quit being so defensive over something you never defended.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

2 hours ago, techbeck said:

Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said Sunday any player who disrespects the flag will not play.

 

Jones’ comments, the strongest made on the anthem controversy, came after he was asked about Vice President Mike Pence leaving the game in Indianapolis early after several San Francisco 49ers players took a knee during the national anthem.

 

"I know this, we cannot ... in the NFL in any way give the implication that we tolerate disrespecting the flag," he said following the Cowboys’ 35-31 loss to the Green Bay Packers. "We know that there is a serious debate in this country about those issues, but there is no question in my mind that the National Football League and the Dallas Cowboys are going to stand up for the flag. So we're clear."

 

Jones and the rest of the team knelt arm-in-arm before the national anthem before a game against the Arizona Cardinals two weeks ago, days after President Trump reignited the anthem-protest controversy.

 

More....

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2017/10/09/jerry-jones-gives-cowboys-players-ultimatum-stand-for-anthem-or-sit-for-game.html

 

Good deal.  Detroit Lions owner said that if players stopped kneeling, then she will donate money to organizations to help their cause.  Also, Kaepernick reached bottom and stated that he will stand for the anthem if he is allowed to play again. 

Gee, I wonder if this has anything to do about this, http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/353362-trump-called-cowboys-jerry-jones-four-times-asking-him-not-to-kneel

[techbeck]

3 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

Serious question, did you serve? Kneeling is not disrespecting the flag; trying to stop a peaceful protest is disrespectful.  Vets fought for equal rights and the ability to protest your government. If you did not serve, quit being so defensive over something you never defended.

Nope...didn't serve but I have family members who did, and currently are and they feel the same way I do.  And do not really need to serve to see how this is disrespectful.   And you do not need to serve to defend and support the rights of others.  Your comment "If you did not serve, quit being so defensive over something you never defended." is useless as it means that anyone protesting for or against this issue and did not serve, doesnt have a voice or right to try and defend it.  I defend and support people's rights no matter their color, religion, or sexual preference, and I have stood with people like this as well.  So yes, I defend people's rights and never said people cannot protest.  Just this is not the place to do so.

[+primortal Subscriber²]

I've asked this in the other thread

Anyone wish to answer?

 

Cause if you don't stand like Trump asked then turn around complaining about kneeling makes one a hypocrite cause both are disrespecting the flag.

[Xenon]

[techbeck]

1 minute ago, primortal said:

I've asked this in the other thread

Anyone wish to answer?

 

Cause if you don't stand like Trump asked then turn around complaining about kneeling makes one a hypocrite cause both are disrespecting the flag.

If I am in the room, sure.  Just like I do when I go to my nieces/nephews sporting events in Jr/High school.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

12 minutes ago, techbeck said:

if you cannot understand what that means to the men and women that fought for this country and which allowed these players to make the money they are making, then goodbye.  It started off as a protest to police injustice but now it has turned in to something else.  Needs to stop.

And can you not comprehend that the men and women who fought against oppression and to maintain civil liberties, the rights of the American people - and how having all of the above manipulated towards intolerance, injustice and used as a whipping stick against anyone who goes against such regimes?  This is exactly why we NEED such protest.  In fact, do deny the protest and to shut it down is exactly what they were supposedly fighting against.

[techbeck]

2 minutes ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

And can you not comprehend that the men and women who fought against oppression and to maintain civil liberties, the rights of the American people - and how having all of the above manipulated towards intolerance, injustice and used as a whipping stick against anyone who goes against such regimes?  This is exactly why we NEED such protest.  In fact, do deny the protest and to shut it down is exactly what they were supposedly fighting against.

Again, not againsts protesting...just not during the national anthem because lots take offense to it and it is causing more division.  If they were protesting other times, then this wouldnt be a big issue like it appears to be now.  And honestly, if all these players are doing is protesting 2min 1 time a week, does not do much just standing around.  Take action, do something else.  I am sure some are, but  then again, I am sure lots are not.

[Circaflex]

 

1 minute ago, techbeck said:

then this wouldnt be a big issue like it appears to be now.

Had trump and co not opened their big mouths, this wouldn't be the big deal it is. Trump is the whole reason the military was brought into these protests, it had nothing to do with the military originally.

[techbeck]

1 minute ago, Circaflex said:

 

Had trump and co not opened their big mouths, this wouldn't be the big deal it is. Trump is the whole reason the military was brought into these protests, it had nothing to do with the military originally.

Uhh, no.  Military was upset before and were getting more and more upset.  Trump just brought it to a head quicker.  And it turned in to being a military issue because veterans were getting upset and felt disrespected.  It was a military issue as soon as vetrans stared feeling disrespectful. 

[+primortal Subscriber²]

4 minutes ago, techbeck said:

If I am in the room, sure.  Just like I do when I go to my nieces/nephews sporting events in Jr/High school.

Good for you

 

The time's I've been in sports bars I've never seen this since Trump starting having a hissy fit about than and did over here patrons complaining about them kneeling.

[techbeck]

Just now, primortal said:

Good for you

 

The time's I've been in sports bars I've never seen this since Trump starting having a hissy fit about than and did over here patrons complaining about them kneeling.

I do forget or not pay attention sometimes at home, but I do not consciously do it...like these players are.  And I agree, practice what you preach or keep quiet.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

18 minutes ago, techbeck said:

The men and women (veterans) who got ###### off for people standing and who took offense to it.    This has been going on before Trump opened his big mouth and people were getting more and more frustrated.  Trump just made things come to a head quicker than they would haven.  And again, funny how 200+ NFL players protested after Trump opened his mouth and then the next week after, the numbers were way down.  Meaning they were just protesting Trump and his comments...not the issues at hand.

Well yes ... the protest grew louder because the person who is supposed to defend and represent the Constitution opened his mouth and basically told NFL players that their First Amendment rights aren't applicable on the field.  It is the NFL's responsibility to react to actions of their employees...not Trump's.  He is the one that turned this molehill into a mountain ... a handful of players kneeled and his mouth turned that handful into hundreds.

 

Edit:  Jerry Jones telling his employees that they will sit if they kneel ... good on him.  He set the rules ... his employees must follow or face the consequences.  That is how it should have always been.

[techbeck]

3 minutes ago, Jim K said:

Well yes ... the protest grew louder because the person who is supposed to defend and represent the Constitution opened his mouth and basically told NFL players that their First Amendment rights aren't applicable on the field.  It is the NFL's responsibility to react to actions of their employees...not Trump's.  He is the one that turned this molehill into a mountain ... a handful of players kneeled and his mouth turned that handful into hundreds.

Trump did not say that.  He said if you disrespect the flag, you should be fired.  If people are listening to him, then good but that is on them, not Trump.  Trump didnt order anything and do do so then I would agree he would be stomping on people's rights.  Also, the NFL was not doing jack about this.  They can fine you a lot of money for wearing the wrong color shoes while supporting a cause (forget which players were fined here) but cannot do so here?  NFL just didn't want to get their hands dirty. 

 

NFL or the owners do not need to listen to Trump.  A lot of people don't.  Just shows that there are owners who agree with how disrespectful this is.  I am sure some owners don't and we wont see anything from them.  Their right to do so.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Just now, techbeck said:

Trump did not say that.  He said if you disrespect the flag, you should be fired.  If people are listening to him, then good but that is on them, not Trump.  Trump didnt order anything and do do so then I would agree he would be stomping on people's rights.  Also, the NFL was not doing jack about this.  They can fine you a lot of money for wearing the wrong color shoes while supporting a cause (forget which players were fined here) but cannot do so here?  NFL just didn't want to get their hands dirty. 

Once again ... what the NFL does and how they react to their employees is on them.  If they want to fine you for wrong color shoes ... that is on them.  Trump should have kept his nose out of how the league enforces their rules ... not throw gasoline on a small matchstick.

 

Also, disrespect the flag.  Hmmm...is it disrespecting or trying to make a point?  Are these players burning the flag, stomping on the flag, giving it the middle finger?  Or have they just been kneeling?

[techbeck]

2 minutes ago, Jim K said:

Also, disrespect the flag.  Hmmm...is it disrespecting or trying to make a point?  Are these players burning the flag, stomping on the flag, giving it the middle finger?  Or have they just been kneeling?

For Veterans who are taking offense to this, not standing and kneeling is the same thing as stomping on the flag.  Disrespect is disrespect no matter how you look at it.  You do not need to do a physical act to show disrespect towards something.

[Circaflex]

7 minutes ago, techbeck said:

For Veterans who are taking offense to this, not standing and kneeling is the same thing as stomping on the flag.  Disrespect is disrespect no matter how you look at it.  You do not need to do a physical act to show disrespect towards something.

No it is not the same thing. For every offended Veteran there is another non-offended veteran. Not everyone who has served finds this disrespectful, there are many who have voiced their opinion in support of these peaceful protests.

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

2 hours ago, techbeck said:

What, Trump does not get an opinion either?  And dictate what?  He didn't order the owners to fire players, he said they should be fired.   There are also a lot of people boycotting and expressing their distaste with they pocket books.  NFL ratings are down and the NFL has dropped to the least popular professional/college sport.

 

You want to protest, peacefully, I am all for it.  But again, doing so during the national anthem sends the wrong message.  That  really is my main gripe with the whole protesting at the anthem.

Doing so during the anthem sends exactly the message it's supposed to send, if you want ALL citizens to be proud of their country then make sure they feel they can by not allowing the police force to murder them during routine traffic stops. It's not as if these are isolated incidents, this crap has been happening for decades, enough is enough. The fact that a few hot dog munching, beer swilling fat idiots feelings have been hurt is less than meaningless compared to that.

 

To expect people to show respect for the flag of a country which treats them with contempt and turns a blind eye to them being murdered by the police forces is moronic.

Edited October 9, 2017 by PsYcHoKiLLa

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

So to summarise, you feel that protest shouldn't be divisive and because veterans are offended then it's wrong to protest.

 

These veterans are absolutely misunderstanding the situation.  The disrespect is from those who have usurped what they originally stood against and twisted it to "Look, these players are disrespecting your actions".  ######.  The veterans did not fight for a flag, for a piece of music or for people to stand during a sporting event.  They fought for liberty, choice, a freedom from oppression, the right to protest, the ability to not go with the powerful.  This is so sickening how that's been twisted by Trump and his cohorts.

[Rippleman]

41 minutes ago, techbeck said:

The men and women (veterans) who got ###### off for people standing and who took offense to it.    This has been going on before Trump opened his big mouth and people were getting more and more frustrated.  Trump just made things come to a head quicker than they would haven.  And again, funny how 200+ NFL players protested after Trump opened his mouth and then the next week after, the numbers were way down.  Meaning they were just protesting Trump and his comments...not the issues at hand.

This is exactly it. This lunacy side of anti-trump is like a disease. Right after they started kneeling, he should have said "to show respect, knee for the flag" they all would have started standing. If its anti-trump, the idiots will follow the crowd.

[Jim K Global Moderator]

18 minutes ago, techbeck said:

For Veterans who are taking offense to this, not standing and kneeling is the same thing as stomping on the flag.  Disrespect is disrespect no matter how you look at it.  You do not need to do a physical act to show disrespect towards something.

I find people stomping on the flag (or desecrating it) very offending ... kneeling in a peaceful manner ... not as much.  I find calling "some" white nationalists "very fine people" offending.

 

We all get offended ... really isn't the job of the Executive Branch to say to the NFL that they should "Get that son of a bitch off the field."  It is the player's First Amendment rights ... it is the owner's responsibility to take action or not.  Jerry Jones has ... it is his right as the owner.  

[techbeck]

14 minutes ago, PsYcHoKiLLa said:

The fact that a few hot dog munching, beer swilling fat idiots feelings have been hurt is less than meaningless compared to that.

The fact that you are saying these are fat idiots who eat hot dogs and drink beer just shows you have no idea those who take offense to the protests.  And way to stereotype and try to label a certain demographic.

14 minutes ago, Nefarious Trigger said:

So to summarise, you feel that protest shouldn't be divisive and because veterans are offended then it's wrong to protest.

 

These veterans are absolutely misunderstanding the situation.  The disrespect is from those who have usurped what they originally stood against and twisted it to "Look, these players are disrespecting your actions".  ######.  The veterans did not fight for a flag, for a piece of music or for people to stand during a sporting event.  They fought for liberty, choice, a freedom from oppression, the right to protest, the ability to not go with the powerful.  This is so sickening how that's been twisted by Trump and his cohorts.

Nope, not what I said.  I think I was pretty  clear.  I said there are better ways to protest and if protests server to divide people more and more, they need to be rethought or not happen.   Also, not the place for this kind of protest as it is causing more problems than it is solving.

 

And you are right, people fought for liberty and justice and that is what the flag means and symbolizes.  Why veterans are upset.   And Trump did not start this.  Veterans/military personnel were upset before Trump opened his mouth.  This is very obvious.  Did Trump make it worse and bring more light to the situation, sure, but  saying Trump twisted things here is incorrect.

[techbeck]

10 minutes ago, Jim K said:

I find people stomping on the flag (or desecrating it) very offending ... kneeling in a peaceful manner ... not as much.

Me to....but I can also see how a lot of people would become offended by this and see it as disrespectful.  As soon as a large group of people take offense to something and it causes more division, things need to be rethought.

 

I am still interested to know how many of these 200+ players or doing something other than just standing around.   Like I said before, standing around does nothing to solve issues.

 

And now I am just repeating myself.  I do respect people's opinion here but I have my own and will leave it at that.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

Done here.  Symbolism over dealing with America's very obvious issues.  Rather not ruffle a few feathers than shine a light on the country's problems.  Gotcha...

[techbeck]

Just now, Nefarious Trigger said:

 Rather not ruffle a few feathers than shine a light on the country's problems.  Gotcha...

Not what I was saying but, ok then.