Video Shows Officer Fatally Shooting Unarmed, Pleading Man

[xendrome]

29 minutes ago, The Evil Overlord said:

That's a rather aggressive standpoint. And poor panicking Daniel has to lose his life and not go home to his family for those same 3 seconds?

An armed standoff I would have understood and fully agreed. 

Yep, he made that decision himself.

[The Evil Overlord]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

 

There is no doubt  there are major problems with some aspects of law enforcement in the US.  In some cases tight budgets can sadly limit some municipalities from providing thorough, in-depth training and background checks.  Financial limits make it difficult for cities to hire the best and most qualified.  Some unfortunate compromises have been made resulting in in less than ideal staffing of personnel.  The fear officers may experience in some cities that see high crime rates and extreme gang violence can put them on edge.  The daily stress of dealing with an incredibly variety of situations is enormous and some agencies may not be able to provide sufficient counseling services.

 

The vast majority of law enforcement officers in the US do an incredible job.  We often don't here about their positive, even heroic, efforts nor about other activities they get involved within their communities.  We do hear about the tragedies.  Some involve officers doing their job and doing it right, even those that result in a death.  Sometimes there is simply no choice and a violent act occurs that nobody wants to happen.

 

And there are some officers (a very, very small minority) who seem hell bent on purposely escalating an already bad situation.  We've read and seen it too many times.

 

With all the terrible incidents occurring around the US I have no doubt that law enforcement agencies are working to improve their policing and enforcement efforts.

Posting from phone, so I'm being lazy with editing, but regarding the positive. I do see the positive police quite often via social media outlets, stuff like the officers using their own money to help out a desperate person, or tearing up tickets, and so on, even one I remember where the cop, talked down an armed suicide attempt. Not to mention their ability to laugh at themselves, or provide the public with a cheap laugh at their own expense. I have no doubt as to what you've said, and yes, something needs to be done to route out the few bad apples.

 

5 minutes ago, xendrome said:

Yep, he made that decision himself.

I for one would hate to see a loved one gunned down like that, just because they were in a state of panic.

[T3X4S]

16 hours ago, macrosslover said:

There is no police department in the United States that would authorize the use of warning shots.  Every shot must be accounted for.  Where would he have shot a warning in this particular situation, that wouldn't have endangered the life or some random person?  That bullet isn't going to magically stop because it's a warning shot.

LOL "warning shot" 

Seriously ?  This isnt the USS Bismark - you can't "put one across his bow"

[The Evil Overlord]

14 minutes ago, T3X4S said:

LOL "warning shot" 

Seriously ?  This isnt the USS Bismark - you can't "put one across his bow"

It's not about the warning shot in itself, but more about how the situation escalated into the shooting. A lot of posters agree the tactic seemed too harsh, and we can all agree we weren't there, so cannot say for absolute certainty on how it should have been handled.

[T3X4S]

1 minute ago, The Evil Overlord said:

It's not about the warning shot in itself, but more about how the situation escalated into the shooting. A lot of posters agree the tactic seemed too harsh, and we can all agree we weren't there, so cannot say for absolute certainty on how it should have been handled.

Oh totally agree with you on that. 

I said the same thing:  I dont know what its like in that situation - but it sure seemed like it could have gone so many different ways of better

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

14 hours ago, trag3dy said:

I'm pretty sure no warning shots is standard operating procedure for police all over the world. Because like I said, there is so much potential there for involving innocent bystander's unintentionally, especially in a place like an apartment complex where pretty much any direction you choose to point your gun people would be there.

I'm pretty sure it is in most parts of the world, preceded by clear verbal warnings first. 

11 hours ago, Seahorsepip said:

Why did they need to crawl in the first place?

To satisfy some sick internal urges and to show complete subservience of citizens before the state which is a characteristic of a totalitarian state that the U.S. has become unfortunately.

[FloatingFatMan]

I see the usual suspects are defending the killer cop and their "shoot first, ask later" method of dealing with things instead of using their brains.

 

Typical USA gung ho attitude, really and is exactly why the "America! F* yeah!" stereotype exists in the first place.

 

Disgusting.

[Emn1ty]

6 hours ago, Mirumir said:

To satisfy some sick internal urges and to show complete subservience of citizens before the state which is a characteristic of a totalitarian state that the U.S. has become unfortunately.

I have no idea where you got that idea, but thanks for telling us how you really feel.

 

1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

I see the usual suspects are defending the killer cop and their "shoot first, ask later" method of dealing with things instead of using their brains.

 

Typical USA gung ho attitude, really and is exactly why the "America! F* yeah!" stereotype exists in the first place.

 

Disgusting.

That's incredibly harsh, and honestly it sounds like you don't even care to understand the dynamics of what happened. It's easy to just insult people, put them into a convenient little box and dismiss their opinions because you don't want to even try and understand where they're coming from.

 

Being so dismissive just makes your opinion seem radical and emotional, not logical.

[FloatingFatMan]

50 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

Being so dismissive just makes your opinion seem radical and emotional, not logical.

Maybe it's because we see so many reports of US cops needlessly escalating situations into something far worse where our own cops are carefully trained to defuse them.  Even in other countries with normally armed police, you just do NOT get the level of needless police killings as you do in the USA.  IMO, it's the gung ho attitude of US gun owners that we see so often on these very forums, that is at fault.

 

It's just a smaller scale version of the same thing that saw Iraq and Afghanistan turned into rubble.  Ridiculous knee-jerk overreactions to a threat that is often far smaller than imagined backed up by a love of weapons so intense that it's bordering on religion.

 

 

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

48 minutes ago, Emn1ty said:

I have no idea where you got that idea, but thanks for telling us how you really feel.

I've watched the video.

 

You're welcome.

[macrosslover]

14 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Maybe it's because we see so many reports of US cops needlessly escalating situations into something far worse where our own cops are carefully trained to defuse them.  Even in other countries with normally armed police, you just do NOT get the level of needless police killings as you do in the USA.  IMO, it's the gung ho attitude of US gun owners that we see so often on these very forums, that is at fault.

 

It's just a larger scale version of the same thing that saw Iraq and Afghanistan turned into rubble.  Ridiculous knee-jerk overreactions to a threat that is often far smaller than imagined backed up by a love of weapons so intense that it's bordering on religion.

 

 

Depends on the armed country you're talking about.  Compare it to a South American country and the "needless" killing by cops is probably worse.  Compare it to Germany or some other European countries, not so much.  But as it's been said numerous times before, the melting pot that is the United States can't be compared to other countries.  However, I would argue that if you transplanted your best cops over here, they wouldn't be able to handle it.  It's a completely different environment than what they are used to.

[techbeck]

22 hours ago, Mirumir said:

  Hide contents

In Russia, cops are obliged to make a warning shot up in the air before shooting.

 

 

Seriously?

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

2 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

I see the usual suspects are defending the killer cop and their "shoot first, ask later" method of dealing with things instead of using their brains.

 

Typical USA gung ho attitude, really and is exactly why the "America! F* yeah!" stereotype exists in the first place.

 

Disgusting.

Yeah....but....but "Pew! Pew! 'murca!"

 

Also, aren't they supposed to cover a colleague while they go in to make the arrest, I always thought a suspect who they think is armed is told to lie on the ground with their arms outstretched to ensure they can't reach for a weapon, then one cop will keep a weapon trained on the suspect while the other goes in to subdue/cuff them? That seems to have been replaced now by a "see who can shoot them first" mentality.

[FloatingFatMan]

1 minute ago, macrosslover said:

Depends on the armed country you're talking about.  Compare it to a South American country and the "needless" killing by cops is probably worse.  Compare it to Germany or some other European countries, not so much.  But as it's been said numerous times before, the melting pot that is the United States can't be compared to other countries.  However, I would argue that if you transplanted your best cops over here, they wouldn't be able to handle it.  It's a completely different environment than what they are used to.

Being  European, I can only really compare it to European countries, none of which have the levels of violence we see in most of the America's (excluding Canada).

 

And actually, there have been cases of UK cops being sent to the US to help train cops there, and very successfully, too. It's all about the attitude you hold when you approach a situation.  Our cops are trained to calm things down, even if that takes hours. US cops appear to be trained to just end the situation in the fastest way possible, which often results in someone dead.  Even with police car chases there's a huge different. You guys use the ridiculously dangerous PIT manouver. Our cops will use a rolling roadblock, box the car in, and force it to stop.  Alternatively, if there's too much risk to the public, they drop back and use air support with FLIR to follow the suspects instead.

[DocM]

23 hours ago, alpha2beta said:

You seriously think the guy would have enough time to pull out a gun and shoot the cop when he has a AR-15 aimed point bank at him? 

There have been many that tried, and the cops cannot just assume that the guy won't try suicide by cop and get off a lucky shot. His vocalizations are irrelevant, they have to go by his physical actions.

[FloatingFatMan]

7 minutes ago, DocM said:

There have been many that tried, and the cops cannot just assume that the guy won't try suicide by cop and get off a lucky shot. His vocalizations are irrelevant, they have to go by his physical actions.

More excuses...

 

"Just kill the guy! Don't bother taking a chance, don't risk misunderstanding, don't believe the clearly prone guy who's clearly physically unable to quickly grab a weapon. Just OPEN FIRE!!!! BANG BANG BANG! SCORE!!"

 

The guy was face first on the ground, his ass in the air. No one on that position can raise a gun NOT presently in their hands, particularly quickly OR secretly.  

 

Please excuse me whilst I go barf.

 

[macrosslover]

11 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Being  European, I can only really compare it to European countries, none of which have the levels of violence we see in most of the America's (excluding Canada).

 

And actually, there have been cases of UK cops being sent to the US to help train cops there, and very successfully, too. It's all about the attitude you hold when you approach a situation.  Our cops are trained to calm things down, even if that takes hours. US cops appear to be trained to just end the situation in the fastest way possible, which often results in someone dead.  Even with police car chases there's a huge different. You guys use the ridiculously dangerous PIT manouver. Our cops will use a rolling roadblock, box the car in, and force it to stop.  Alternatively, if there's too much risk to the public, they drop back and use air support with FLIR to follow the suspects instead.

The PIT maneuver is not a ridiculously dangerous, especially when executed by a well trained officer.  It's the quickest and safest way, short of gunning the car down of ending most pursuits.  Boxing a car in is only effective at extremely low speeds or when the suspect car has not moved yet.  There are plenty of videos of police cars that attempted the maneuver and the suspect car just rammed them out of the way.  Stop sticks are effective, but there are plenty of officers who have purposely been run down by the fleeing suspects, when they saw them standing on the side of the road.

 

As for the FLIR, not every police department here has air support and not every helicopter has FLIR equipped.  Even for those that do, if the helicopter follows the suspects and they eventually stop, guess how they're going to be caught?  More than likely with a SWAT team and more guns.  You can't expect someone who has gone to that extent to evade the police to suddenly say I give up.

[FloatingFatMan]

1 minute ago, macrosslover said:

The PIT maneuver is not a ridiculously dangerous, especially when executed by a well trained officer.  It's the quickest and safest way, short of gunning the car down of ending most pursuits.  Boxing a car in is only effective at extremely low speeds or when the suspect car has not moved yet.  There are plenty of videos of police cars that attempted the maneuver and the suspect car just rammed them out of the way.  Stop sticks are effective, but there are plenty of officers who have purposely been run down by the fleeing suspects, when they saw them standing on the side of the road.

 

Whilst taking into account that most of the footage I've seen tends to come from entertainment TV shows like America's Dumbest Criminals etc, quite a lot of PIT manouvers seem to end up in a wreck on the part of the suspect. Rolling road blocks, on the other hand, I've yet to see more than one or two wrecks on similar UK versions of said shows. They just surround the car with 6 or so cops cars and force him to slow, bumper to bumper and side to side, with no escape possible.

 

1 minute ago, macrosslover said:

 

As for the FLIR, not every police department here has air support and not every helicopter has FLIR equipped.  Even for those that do, if the helicopter follows the suspects and they eventually stop, guess how they're going to be caught?  More than likely with a SWAT team and more guns.  You can't expect someone who has gone to that extent to evade the police to suddenly say I give up.

Follow the bugger home, wait till he thinks he's safe, then go in with some officers to arrest him. No need for SWAT as he thinks he's safe...

[techbeck]

First off, I am not specifically commenting on this case.  I am sure we all get what happened here.  With that said....

 

Yes, there are bad cops out there or idiot cops.  Cops that over react or do not think about what they are doing until after.  But the number of good police far outweigh the ones that are screwing up.  Also, cops are being targeted by people so they are even more on edge than before.  I don't agree with the comments, not just from here, that all cops are bad or they all have a shoot first and questions later mentality.   There are many good things that cops do everyday that over shadow things like this.  But of course, that is rarely reported on.

Edited December 11, 2017 by techbeck

[DocM]

On 12/10/2017 at 11:59 AM, The Evil Overlord said:

Sorry doc, I'm not one to disagree with you often, but a tac suited officer is wearing more protection than the guy on his knees, if the officer was not wearing any kind of protection whatsoever, then I'd fully agree with you, as they'd potentially be on an even ground as far as the weapons were concerned. 

 

All too often these guys will fire on fully armored cops, you just can't assume that they're acting reasonably.

Quote

Anonymouswent ahead and stated no weapons were found on his person. (Whether it's true or not, I don't actually know)

 

First, the cops have no way of knowing that. Second, there were weapons found in the room. Third, the cops had no way of knowing if there was a third party in the room ready to ambush them which is why they did not approach closer.

Quote

Although I have never been in such a life-threatening situation, I do however, understand panic, your mind is working a hundred miles an hour, your thought are so Jumbled and rocketing by that you can lose where you are. You make mistakes because your thought pattern is disjointed...

Unfortunately I have been in that situation, and yes your mind races. Your one goal is to survive. Putting myself in the cops shoes, a hand moving to behind his back is an action you cannot ignore. Him making that move after being previously being warned not to do so is a threat.

 

We also have to take into account that there may have been others in that hallway behind the officer, including the unarmed & unarmored woman who crawled out earlier.

 

Others in danger are those on other floors in that building, and people in adjoining buildings. If that man had a weapon and got off a shot, even off angle as from being shot while drawing, it's not unusual for the bullet to go through several walls and into an adjoining structure or into the street. 

 

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

49 minutes ago, techbeck said:

Seriously?

Yes. Shocking, I know.

 

 

Spoiler

 

For starters, there's an infinitesimal chance to get killed by a police-officer in Russia. Our men (and women) are so tough, they can take in a lot of abuse. And they do take it from drunkards and idiots on a daily basis.

 

The most common situation in which they use their firearms is a car-chase scenario. If a driver is disobeying and trying to run away, the SOP is as follows: warn verbally three times (using a loudspeaker), then give a warning shot, then shoot at the car's tires (NOT THE DRIVER'S HEAD). 

 

Of course, everything is situational, but believe me when I say that the Russian cops must go to great lengths to justify the use of and account for each damn bullet.

 

 

[techbeck]

Just now, Mirumir said:

Yes. Shocking, I know.

 

 

 

Shooting in the air is plain stupid if that what happens.

[+Mirumir Subscriber¹]

1 minute ago, techbeck said:

Shooting in the air is plain stupid if that what happens.

Killing unarmed citizens without a cause is more stupid.

 

Population control anyone?

[techbeck]

5 minutes ago, Mirumir said:

Killing unarmed citizens without a cause is more stupid.

 

Population control anyone?

So you don't see any issue with a stray bullet coming down and killing an innocent miles away then.....?  That is the point I was making.  Warning do and can cause more problems.  There have been reported incidents of this happening.

[techbeck]

Glad to see some do not care about stray bullets coming down and hurting people but like to condemn police for shooting unarmed people.  There is a reason why several states have outlawed it.  And basically, this is no better than shooting an unarmed person.   Not surprised on the people who disliked my post when I posted evidence that shooting in the air kills/injures people.

 

Who, What, Why: How dangerous is firing a gun into the air?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-14616491

 

Firing a bullet in the air is stupidity at its finest and majorly irresponsible.

Edited December 11, 2017 by techbeck