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Connecting LAN segments question

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Joe User    478

Hi there,

 

I'm running a network where I have a small home office with a few wired PC's, a small server and a few wireless devices. I'm connecting it to my Internet connection which is across the house and has an Xbox, Roku, Alexa, and similar devices.

 

The Office was wired for DirecTV and there's a cable near the Internet router. So, I set up MoCA to bridge them, but it's not 100% reliable. I have two ASUS RT-AC68R (802.11 ac) routers, one as an access point and the other as a AP. I've tried running the AP as a bridge, but it's also not 100% reliable.  I tried running both at the same time and as a mesh, but loops seem to cause the MoCA bridge to go completely crazy (I thought STP would handle this).

 

I needed to get some new switches at some point, so I picked up two used PowerConnect 2808 managed switches.

 

Can I connect two Dell PowerConnect 2808 switches via both MoCA and WiFi bridge mode at the same time or should I just give up and try to make the entire office wireless?

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+BudMan    3,260

Your going to have to draw up this mess...

Quote

tried running the AP as a bridge

What do you think an AP is ;)

 

I have no idea what your doing - and where you thought STP would of come into play with some moca bridge and AP?

 

Draw this up and we can discuss.. What device make and model do you have for moca bridge.

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Joe User    478

Apologies for the diagram, I don't have Visio right now.

 

I omitted the wireless devices on the network, it's the usual household stuff, phones, tablet, etc..

The MoCA bridge consists of two Actiontec ECB6200K02s. 

The switches are currently both Netgear GS108E "managed" switches. The Dell switches are on their way.

The APs are ASUS RT-AC68R and also have a 4 port switch on board.

I've tried using the ActonTec's plugged into both the Netgear and the Asus with no changes.

 

I really want some kind of redundant link or maybe a load balanced link, so when the MoCA adapter decides to go out the home office computers keep working using WiFi.

 

Running Ethernet would be the best solution, but I can't do that at this time. 

Network Layout.png

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+BudMan    3,260

That drawing is fine...

 

There should be no problem with such a connection and there wouldn't be any loop there - unless your trying to setup some sort of backhaul over the wireless devices as well?  Ie a client bridge sort of setup..

 

Could you give more details of how you have your office AP setup?

 

Here is how you would do it.. On your livingroom wifi router this would be just normal typical soho setup.. Your network is say 192.168.0/24 running dhcp on this box  and your SSID setup lets call it HomeSSID.. Now to use your office device as just an AP... connect a LAN port to your switch, turn off its dhcp server and set its lan IP to be on your network 192.168.0.X/24  Setup its SSID to be HomeSSID..

 

There you go.. there would be no loops or issues.

 

When you say your having issues.. Take your laptop into the livingroom and plug into switch port either on your switch or your router and then run say iperf between the laptop and workstartion... What speeds you seeing over the moca connection?  Run a long ping, say like 1000 or more packets... Are you seeing any loss?

 

When you say you want a backup connection.. You want a wifi backhaul incase the moca goes out.. Are rats going to chew through the cable?  If your really worried about the devices going bad.. Buy another set as spare ;)

 

You could setup a wifi backhaul but its way more effort than its worth, You prob be better off with some real AP, like unifi which could drop to wireless uplink on case of wired network connectivity but since they are poe that prob going to be some really odd failure mode.

 

If you want multiple paths for redundancy, run another cable or ethernet or fiber ;)  Or buy wifi bridges and use those and sure with managed switches you could setup a lagg for failover redundancy.  Do you really think those moca devices are going to just fail?

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Joe User    478

That's the current connection in the diagram, I tried using WiFi at one point, but it's not reliable as there are too many walls between the two. The Office AP is just set up with the same SSID as the router using Ethernet to MoCA as a backhaul.

 

The MoCA connection dies under heavy load. If 3 computers are downloading at full speed it will drop packets and eventually reset, coming back up a minute or so later and repeating the process shortly after. 

 

Running Ethernet will be the best solution, but the house is old enough to need lots of wall drilling and outside cabling, there's no common attic or basement between the two rooms, I was hoping to avoid that. When the new switches arrive, I was thinking about using a lagg with the 2 bridges (one WiFi, one MoCA), if that's possible. That's my real question, is that a workable solution? Can I use both at the same time and load balance and also have some redundancy if one goes down?

 

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+BudMan    3,260

You can sure but its not going to be very good because the speeds are going to be way different..

 

When you say 3 computers downloading at full speed that means what?  You saying your saturating the gig connection that those devices are suppose to be able to do?

 

I would using iperf generate a specific amount of traffic to find out where they have a problem.. When with your smart switches you can rate limit the connection over the moca to that speed.

 

BTW - did you just try powerline adapters?  That is going to be better than wifi to be honest..

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Joe User    478
7 hours ago, BudMan said:

You can sure but its not going to be very good because the speeds are going to be way different..

 

When you say 3 computers downloading at full speed that means what?  You saying your saturating the gig connection that those devices are suppose to be able to do?

 

I would using iperf generate a specific amount of traffic to find out where they have a problem.. When with your smart switches you can rate limit the connection over the moca to that speed.

 

BTW - did you just try powerline adapters?  That is going to be better than wifi to be honest..

Nowhere near the gig connection, it's a 150Mbps line out, so somewhere near that.  I'll see if I can duplicate with iperf. I think the adapters just can't handle lots of traffic from multiple computers at the same time. If I start a steam download on 2 PC's it will start to disrupt things, even with QoS on.

 

I did try powerline, which is what I used (with great success) before I moved here, unfortunately, it didn't work out and was far slower than WiFi.

 

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+BudMan    3,260

The model of moca adapter you linked too says they can do gig..

 

https://www.actiontec.com/products/home-networking/ecb6200/

 

Your internet has zero to do with what those adapters should be able to handle..

 

Maybe its your router?  Maybe its your ISP... what exactly is your problem located is the issue it seems to me.. What firmware are you running on your main router?  I would test what those moca adapters through your switch can do.. You can use iperf to generate traffic and see what speeds you can get... You can have it run that for a long time... etc. etc..

 

If those adapters do not come close to their specs - then contact them for support, etc.  That connection should be rock freaking solid..

 

 

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Joe User    478
1 minute ago, BudMan said:

The model of moca adapter you linked too says they can do gig..

 

https://www.actiontec.com/products/home-networking/ecb6200/

 

Your internet has zero to do with what those adapters should be able to handle..

 

Maybe its your crap router?

 

 

It's not the router, the adapters drop the connection and the coax light goes off and back on. I'm thinking it's a flaw in that model.

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+BudMan    3,260

See my edit - then contact them..  Generate some traffic that you can control and then get with them on the details.

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Joe User    478
Just now, BudMan said:

See my edit - then contact them..  Generate some traffic that you can control and then get with them on the details.

I will definitely do that. 

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+BudMan    3,260

Unless there is something wrong with the cable that connection should be rock solid.. Sure and the hell should be way better than some wifi bridge off soho equipment.

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Joe User    478
On 11/29/2018 at 1:22 PM, BudMan said:

Unless there is something wrong with the cable that connection should be rock solid.. Sure and the hell should be way better than some wifi bridge off soho equipment.

I ordered a cable tester to make sure. 

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+BudMan    3,260

So what kind of bandwidth could you push with iperf?  You know I have a thread around here where I compile the latest iperf3 versions for windows and have it available for download.

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Joe User    478
9 hours ago, BudMan said:

So what kind of bandwidth could you push with iperf?  You know I have a thread around here where I compile the latest iperf3 versions for windows and have it available for download.

The new switch should arrive today, I'm testing after that is set up and while the family is out. I'll let you know.

 

Also, I downloaded your copy, thanks!

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Joe User    478

iperf average is about 350Mbps. 

 

 

Edited by Joe User
replaced switch

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Joe User    478

Today I learned that my old switch is crap.

 

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Joe User    478

Interesting thing, I was able to plug in both MoCA and the AP (as a media bridge) with my newer switch and it did not cause the MoCA adapter to restart, even though it was essentially a loop. I'm wondering if part of the problem is my switch.

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+BudMan    3,260

So the moca was only able to do 350?  Or was that your old switch?  Yeah not really a fan of some of the soho dumb switches.. I run the cicso sg300, have a 28 and 10 model on my home network.. Fair price and good switch.. they are near eol but get a couple more years out of them.. You can not go wrong spending a few extra bucks on a decent switch that is for sure..

 

No offense but trying to do a wifi, lan lagg is not doing anyone any favors... If your wire is failing then you need to figure out why it fails and makes sure it doesn't.. A wireless sort of backup is great for out of band access when say the fiber gets cut sort of thing... But its not something you would load share, etc..  Its akin to the old school dial up backup... Yeah if that wire goes down I will dial in via your pots line ;)

 

Or what that limit of your pcs?  You should really do some good testing..

PC -- wire -- Laptop = speed?

PC -- switch -- Laptop = speed?

PC -- moca -- cable --- moca -- laptop = speed?

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- laptop = speed?

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- switch -- laptop = speed?

 

Then swap out those ###### switches with your new switches, etc..  You need to figure out where problem or bottleneck actually is, etc.

 

Sure to have to replace them in next few years.. But that will some 802.3bz, 10ge switch I am sure..  I know for sure the next switch I buy will not be 1 gig switch.. While it might not do 10ge copper it will for sure support 802.3bz..

 

If the netgear MS510TX was a bit cheaper be a good home soho switch for future proofing for sure!

 

You need to really clarify where the 350 bottleneck was.. if moca - I would be screaming to them about their 1gig claims!!

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Joe User    478
53 minutes ago, BudMan said:

So the moca was only able to do 350?  Or was that your old switch?  Yeah not really a fan of some of the soho dumb switches.. I run the cicso sg300, have a 28 and 10 model on my home network.. Fair price and good switch.. they are near eol but get a couple more years out of them.. You can not go wrong spending a few extra bucks on a decent switch that is for sure..

 

No offense but trying to do a wifi, lan lagg is not doing anyone any favors... If your wire is failing then you need to figure out why it fails and makes sure it doesn't.. A wireless sort of backup is great for out of band access when say the fiber gets cut sort of thing... But its not something you would load share, etc..  Its akin to the old school dial up backup... Yeah if that wire goes down I will dial in via your pots line ;)

 

Or what that limit of your pcs?  You should really do some good testing..

PC -- wire -- Laptop = speed?

PC -- switch -- Laptop = speed?

PC -- moca -- cable --- moca -- laptop = speed?

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- laptop = speed?

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- switch -- laptop = speed?

 

Then swap out those ###### switches with your new switches, etc..  You need to figure out where problem or bottleneck actually is, etc.

 

Sure to have to replace them in next few years.. But that will some 802.3bz, 10ge switch I am sure..  I know for sure the next switch I buy will not be 1 gig switch.. While it might not do 10ge copper it will for sure support 802.3bz..

 

If the netgear MS510TX was a bit cheaper be a good home soho switch for future proofing for sure!

 

You need to really clarify where the 350 bottleneck was.. if moca - I would be screaming to them about their 1gig claims!!

 

I tested all configurations,

Local direct and switch is 950.

PC -- moca -- cable --- moca -- laptop = 355

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- laptop = 350

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- switch -- laptop = 350

The 350 bottleneck is the MoCA adapter.

 

Wireless was 380.

 

I wouldn't rule out a bad cable somewhere, it's in the wall and not easily accessible. 

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Joe User    478

I found an updated firmware for the MoCA adapters, now I'm at 950Mbps! 

 

PC -- switch -- moca -- cable -- moca -- switch -- laptop = 950 Mbps now.

 

Now to see how stable it is.

 

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+BudMan    3,260

Nice!!!

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+DevTech    1,340

You could just save yourself a ton of grief, time, thinking, testing etc etc by just running a nice friendly ethernet cable along the floor boards or the ceiling corner to the home office plain and simple - keep in place with duct tape or staples and then just yank it out after your adventures in hole drilling - why wait for the "promised land" when you can have it today?

 

 

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Joe User    478
1 hour ago, DevTech said:

You could just save yourself a ton of grief, time, thinking, testing etc etc by just running a nice friendly ethernet cable along the floor boards or the ceiling corner to the home office plain and simple - keep in place with duct tape or staples and then just yank it out after your adventures in hole drilling - why wait for the "promised land" when you can have it today?

 

 

Cute, but no.

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+DevTech    1,340
11 minutes ago, Joe User said:

Cute, but no.

Never before seen plain old ordinary efficiency and effectiveness described as cute, but then again imagining the beautiful unrestricted copper wire pulsing with energy....

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+BudMan    3,260

Seems to me his issue was just a firmware update of the moca devices, and he is now cooking with gas..

 

There ways to hide a cable for sure behind baseboards, Behind crown molding - and they sell stuff for the corners as well to hide cable.. But if its a pain to run, and he already has the coax there - yeah leverage it.. 950 is the best that is possible over gig ethernet...  If gig is limiting factor MoCa 2.5 can do 2.5gig and I do recall some talk of 3 being able to do 10ge..

 

edit:

yup10g.thumb.png.776b12e82b656e4d468f4884809366b2.png

From that road map 2018 was suppose to see MoCa 3.0 but have not seen any adapters available - but then again haven't really looked either..

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