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1st time PC Build, No display/Bios

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diLeMaZ    0
53 minutes ago, DevTech said:

What Can Be Wrong:

 

1. The BIOS being too old to know about 9th gen fits the facts but it is important to keep in mind that other possibilities exist.

 

2. The mobo might just need a simple CMOS RESET which you have still NOT YET confirmed.

 

3. The RAM may not be compatible. Is it on the mobo's QVL List?

 

4. The bent CPU pin thing. You have to examine the socket with a good magnifying glass to look for bent pins which is very hard to see since that are ALL bent slightly in one direction or another by design. Those pins are insanely EASY TO DAMAGE so inserting the CPU is like open heart surgery!

 

5. The "Cardboard testing" suggestion eliminates a hard to spot short between the mobo and the case. Screws and metal shavings can drop down behing and some cases come with extra mounting stand-offs that need to be REMOVED if the don't line up with a HOLE.

 

6. FINALLY there are the chances of a component being defective. Bad mobo, Bad CPU or Bad PSU. Note you can't have bad RAM because one of the two or 4 sticks will always work unless you have incompatible RAM as mentioned in #3

 

So if #1 to #5 is NOT the problem, then you need to borrow a PSU, and then borrow a CPU. If those two don't fix it, then ONLY the mobo is left and is most likely the defective part.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to work through these steps and will report back.

 

Particularly with step 4, the CPU fan was cheap and not high quality and took a large amount of force to attach. Could this have been a problem for the CPU?

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Mindovermaster    1,793
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, diLeMaZ said:

I'm going to work through these steps and will report back.

 

Particularly with step 4, the CPU fan was cheap and not high quality and took a large amount of force to attach. Could this have been a problem for the CPU?

CPU fan shouldn't matter. Once it is clamped down, it shouldn't move.

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diLeMaZ    0
1 minute ago, Mindovermaster said:

CPU fan shouldn't matter....

Yeah wasn't sure if it would affect it or not, cheers

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diLeMaZ    0
34 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

The mobo might just need a simple CMOS RESET which you have still NOT YET confirmed.

Just completed a CMOS reset by taking out the Mobo onboard battery and reseating it a few mins later. No luck

 

34 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

The RAM may not be compatible. Is it on the mobo's QVL List?

The ram is on the Mobo's QVL list so don't think this is the issue

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DevTech    1,517
40 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

I'm going to work through these steps and will report back.

 

Particularly with step 4, the CPU fan was cheap and not high quality and took a large amount of force to attach. Could this have been a problem for the CPU?

"CPU fan was cheap and not high quality and took a large amount of force to attach"

 

I have not seen anything like with a modern mobo.

 

If the CPU was not properly seated in the socket, that might explain the extra force and also nothing working...

 

Either way, close examination should tell what on Earth was needing the extra force. Be Sherlock Holmes.

 

Really strong magnifing glass or really perfect eyesight needs to be directed at the Socket Pins IF you find anything suspicious.

 

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DevTech    1,517
9 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

Just completed a CMOS reset by taking out the Mobo onboard battery and reseating it a few mins later. No luck

 

Removing the battery is the WRONG way to reset CMOS!

 

Use the Force Luke!  - that being the jumper pins that every mobo supplies for that purpose which SHORTS the power to the RAM.

 

If you just remove the battery, you have no idea how long the capacitors in the circuit can keep the CMOS ALIVE but it could be 30 minutes or more.

 

Use the pins. no need to remove battery. Takes 2 seconds.

 

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DevTech    1,517
49 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

I'm going to work through these steps and will report back.

STEP 1: If you can confirm your BIOS version is less than 15 then for sure that's the problem, no need to run down the steps...

 

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LaP    2,067
Posted (edited)

I don't want to read all thread but i find it very unlikely a recent board by MSI able to accept a 9700 doesn't have an error code lcd display or lights. The last time i bought a MB using  beep error signals was like 15 years ago.

 

If the CPU is not supported by the bios should not he get a cpu error code? Don't think it would prevent the board itself to display an error code. Is it the MSI Z370 PC PRO? This board has EZ Debug Lights.

 

My recommendation from my own experience :

 

1. Grab your MB manual. Check where the debug lights are located.

2. Boot the PC. If the fans don't spin it could be a dead PSU. If the fans spin check the debug lights on the MB to see which component is causing troubles.

3. The lights says it's the cpu. Update the bios if you need to update it. The version of the bios or the motherboard should be written on a sticker so do some researches to find which bios it came with and check the manufacturer website to see if it supports the cpu. If the bios is fine then remove the cpu check the pins and re-install it properly.

4. The lights say it's the gpu. Remove the gpu and try to boot from the cpu igpu.

5. the lights say it's the ram. Try with just one of either stick if you got two and if not then try with some friends ram.

6. The lights say it's a boot problem. Probably not the case because if it was you would be able to access the bios.

Edited by LaP

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Matthew S.    773

was the ZIF socket opened when you installed the CPU? could explain the "extra force" needed to seat the fan...

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LaP    2,067
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Matthew S. said:

was the ZIF socket opened when you installed the CPU? could explain the "extra force" needed to seat the fan...

It's his first build maybe he thinks it was extra force but maybe it was normal. He doesn't have the experience to judge. My first build i was a teen and i was scared at how much force was needed to seat the ram and the cpu cooler. I thought i would break my MB or cpu. Today i laugh at it as everything was normal.

 

I've not seen a post where he says he checked the debug lights. Maybe i missed it but that's the first thing to do. I mean ... that's troubleshooting 101.

 

The only time i had a computer where the beeps or lights were not working at all but the fans were the MB was dead. dead as totally dead.

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xMorpheousx416    44
Quote

Particularly with step 4, the CPU fan was cheap and not high quality and took a large amount of force to attach. Could this have been a problem for the CPU?

Back in the day, when CPUs didn't have heat spreaders attached, you could easily crack one when applying the heat sink.  Today.. eh, not so much.  But as Dev mentioned, you can bend pins on an Intel socket faster than blinking an eye.

 

Quote

If you just remove the battery, you have no idea how long the capacitors in the circuit can keep the CMOS ALIVE but it could be 30 minutes or more.

This would only pertain if the PSU is still connected to the motherboard.  CMOS batteries shouldn't be removed unless they need to be replaced; or the instructions for the board say to do so.  
Always unplug the PSU when doing this, or removing other components.

 

Motherboard capacitors are typically around 25v 560 to 1000uf.  These can take up to 15 to 20 seconds to fully discharge.

You have a greater chance of frying that board touching it with your bare hands, then worrying about motherboard caps.  PSU caps, that's another story, but that's why it's rule #1 when working on the board; unplug it (both ends).

 

I am not discrediting what Dev has said.  Caps can take a while to discharge.  Basically, the larger the longer, but they go by uF ratings.  Timings will determine the rate of discharge, but think of it this way.. the larger the actual cap or uF rating, the longer it takes.  Just.. don't want anyone panicking cuz they removed the battery.  I've done it countless times while troubleshooting, but that's just me.

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diLeMaZ    0
1 hour ago, Matthew S. said:

was the ZIF socket opened when you installed the CPU? could explain the "extra force" needed to seat the fan..

The ZIF socket was opened. I had a friend help who built his own PC, so pretty sure components were put in correctly.

 

I recently stripped all components from motherboard including CPU. To summerise what happened with the EZ DEBUG LED system, when all components were removed, the CPU LED was on.

I then inserted the CPU after careful inspection of the pins seeing no abnormalities and also put the CPU fan back (this time it was much easier to put on but I think this is because I had already done it, I knew what to do).

 

I powered the PC on and then the RAM LED was on so I inserted one RAM stick, no LED lights but no display then two and so on...

 

With the CPU and RAM in, on start up, no Debug LEDs went on. 

 

The GPU LED never switches on, could this be a potential problem or maybe the GPU is not needed? Whether GPU is in or not, again GPU LED never toggles.

Think I mentioned before but the GPU fans only spin for about a minute when starting and then stop.

 

2 hours ago, DevTech said:

STEP 1: If you can confirm your BIOS version is less than 15 then for sure that's the problem, no need to run down the steps...

Going to have a look into this as I'm running out of options at this stage

 

2 hours ago, DevTech said:

Use the Force Luke!  - that being the jumper pins that every mobo supplies for that purpose which SHORTS the power to the RAM.

Feels like learning the ways of the Force would be easier than resolving this - will try this method also though.

 

Again, thanks for all replies and help

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John.D    56

I bet the prob is the BIOS on it doesnt support the CPU.

 

Not much you can do about it, unless you install a lower spec CPU then flash the BIOS first.

 

It wont turn on / post / do anything until you do.

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DevTech    1,517
26 minutes ago, John.D said:

I bet the prob is the BIOS on it doesnt support the CPU.

 

Not much you can do about it, unless you install a lower spec CPU then flash the BIOS first.

 

It wont turn on / post / do anything until you do.

The newer mobos can flash the BIOS without a CPU!

 

Alas, his mobo is a bit older.

 

The support fpr his CPU was added in V15 so he just has to figure out which BIOS he has without booting...

 

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xendrome    5,335
22 hours ago, xendrome said:

Are you splitting the 8pin CPU and GPU powers there?

Still no answer on this. And that 8pin cable looks sub-par.

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DevTech    1,517
1 hour ago, xMorpheousx416 said:

Back in the day, when CPUs didn't have heat spreaders attached, you could easily crack one when applying the heat sink.  Today.. eh, not so much.  But as Dev mentioned, you can bend pins on an Intel socket faster than blinking an eye.

 

This would only pertain if the PSU is still connected to the motherboard.  CMOS batteries shouldn't be removed unless they need to be replaced; or the instructions for the board say to do so.  
Always unplug the PSU when doing this, or removing other components.

 

Motherboard capacitors are typically around 25v 560 to 1000uf.  These can take up to 15 to 20 seconds to fully discharge.

You have a greater chance of frying that board touching it with your bare hands, then worrying about motherboard caps.  PSU caps, that's another story, but that's why it's rule #1 when working on the board; unplug it (both ends).

 

I am not discrediting what Dev has said.  Caps can take a while to discharge.  Basically, the larger the longer, but they go by uF ratings.  Timings will determine the rate of discharge, but think of it this way.. the larger the actual cap or uF rating, the longer it takes.  Just.. don't want anyone panicking cuz they removed the battery.  I've done it countless times while troubleshooting, but that's just me.

You are confused about my point.

 

The CMOS RAM uses VERY VERY LITTLE POWER - some close order approximation of ZERO if you had to calculate it

 

So if you try to empty the RAM by removing the battery, you are faced with an UNKNOWN time for the power to the CMOS to reduce enough to CLEAR THE RAM (located inside the BIOS chip).

 

STUPID to even be talking about this when all he has to do is move a Jumper for 2 seconds or push a button depending on mobo.

 

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DevTech    1,517
1 minute ago, xendrome said:

Still no answer on this. And that 8pin cable looks sub-par.

I am asking him to do ALL his testing with his 1070 hidden away in a different city or at least in the cave under his house where the Elves who steal one sock from the clothes dryer live.

 

Then issues of power to the PCIe GPU can be discussed AFTER his mobo BOOTS!

 

Breaking my own suggestion here, I would say that photo is an optical illusion born from the PSU using flat cables.

 

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diLeMaZ    0

I think I may have found something , in the mobo specs it says it supports 8th gen, my understanding is my cpu is 9th gen. Definitely a bios issue?

 

 

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LaP    2,067
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

I think I may have found something , in the mobo specs it says it supports 8th gen, my understanding is my cpu is 9th gen. Definitely a bios issue?

 

 

Yep more than likely. Once you installed the CPU and RAM the Debug Lights indicated everything was fine. The CPU comes with an iGPU so that's why the boot process is okay. I would bet it's the bios since 9th gen requires version 15 of the bios. This mobo doesn't seem to be able to update the bios without a CPU so you'll likely need to install a 8th gen cpu and update the bios or return the MB and get a newer one.

 

My advice in the future check if the cpu is supported by original bios when the MB was released and if not check if you can update the bios without a CPU with this MB. You never really know when you buy online which revision of a MB you'll get.

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DevTech    1,517
3 hours ago, LaP said:

The version of the bios or the motherboard should be written on a sticker so do some researches to find which bios it came with and check the manufacturer website to see if it supports the cpu

He is doing complicated steps like pulling the CPU and yet won't LOOK AT A STICKER! It is a new build here with a mobo from 2017! Maybe he got it on EBAY with no box? He should tell us all the INFO so everything does not seem so X-FILES mysterious!

2 hours ago, LaP said:

I've not seen a post where he says he checked the debug lights

He checked them in an early post. And then again at your prompting. Considering the resources available to the mobo designers those lights are surprisingly useless!

 

2 hours ago, LaP said:

t's his first build

We have ALL been there!

11 minutes ago, diLeMaZ said:

I think I may have found something , in the mobo specs it says it supports 8th gen, my understanding is my cpu is 9th gen. Definitely a bios issue?

 

 

Are you actually reading what people have been telling you?

 

I linked to that info back back back early on.

 

You need version 15 of your BIOS which I have said in numerous posts.

 

What is going on?

 

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DevTech    1,517

This post:

 

 

Using an Internet Browser, move the mouse over that link and then click on it.

 

Read the BIOS update descriptions going back to 2017 and see that V15 added 9th gen support which is TWO BIOS revisions back from the current.

 

BIOS List:

 

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/Z370-PC-PRO

 

Putting the info another way that might be easier to see, there is a CPU Support Page and they show the BIOS version for each CPU

 

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/Z370-PC-PRO#support-cpu

 

 

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LaP    2,067
2 minutes ago, DevTech said:

He checked them in an early post. And then again at your prompting. Considering the resources available to the mobo designers those lights are surprisingly useless!

 

 

Yeah the lights should indicate a CPU problem if the BIOS doesn't support the CPU. Don't think it would be impossible to do.

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xendrome    5,335
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, DevTech said:

What is going on?

You need to calm down a bit and be less hostile, it doesn't help someone who is doing this for the first time when you come across as super aggressive. He's probably already frustrated.

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DevTech    1,517

The Cheapest CPU That You Can Boot To Flash to Version 17

 

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/Z370-PC-PRO#support-cpu

 

Looking through the supported CPUs for BIOS Version 10 (the oldest) yields a i3-8100 as the cheapest CPU.

 

You can drop to a Celeron G4900 for BIOS Version 13

 

 

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DevTech    1,517
1 minute ago, xendrome said:

You need to calm down a bit and be less hostile, it doesn't help someone who is doing this for the first time when you come across as super aggressive. He's probably already frustrated.

Yeah I'm not actually hostile. It's all just data to me. I'm trying to understand his blind spots and adjust the information accordingly

 

There is just something a bit mysterious about the information he chooses to read and NOT to read, and I'd like to understand that.

 

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