Axiom Space - commercial space station


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DocM

Fact: eventually, the International Space Station will be retired and NASA wants to use commercial space stations in low Earth orbit instead. These would be commercial entities, privately operated. Want to use it? Reserve the time and book your space launch.

 

Result: NASA has selected Axiom Space to lead the way.

 

Axiom Space is a private space company headquartered in Houston, Texas. Fouded and run by NASA veterans,

 

https://www.axiomspace.com/

 

Axiom Space CEO: Michael Suffredini, former Program Manager ISS Program (2005-2015)

Axiom Space VP: Michael Lopez-Alegria, former NASA Astronaut

among others...

 

the goals are,

 

1) fly commercial passengers to the International Space Station, initially using the Crew Dragon spacecraft then others as they become available. The customers  would be those doing commercial or government experiments, private visitors, etc.  The missions will be named AX-1, AX-2, etc.


2) launch the Axiom Node One module to the ISS in 2024, then expand. AxN1 is under construction in Europe at Thales Alenia Space. This would be followed by several other modules, roughly one every  year. The AX-(n) mission crews would move into these habitats.

 

3) in the late 2020's these modules will disconnect from the ISS, becoming a free-flying commercial Axiom Station. 

 

EPn_nx2XUAE7Kef.jpg

 

AX-1 mission

 

The commercial Crew Dragon AX-1 mission to ISS is currently scheduled for January, 2022.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/26/axiom-space-unveils-ax-1-crew-for-fully-private-spacex-mission-to-iss.html

 

Note: besides AX-1, there will be another commercial Crew Dragon flight for Space Adventures.

 

Commander: Michael Lopez-Alegria (US, former NASA astronaut, Axiom VP)


Pilot: Larry Connor (US; managing partner Connor Group)


Mission Specialist 1: Mark Pathy (Canada; CEO Mavrik Inc.)


Mission Specialist 2: Eytan Stibbe (Israel; businessman, former IAF pilot)
 

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FloatingFatMan

Axiom you say?

 

 

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  • 2 months later...
JCooper

I can't believe that commercial missions to the ISS will become a reality soon. What do you think, how much will be the flight to the new ISS cost?

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DocM
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JCooper said:

I can't believe that commercial missions to the ISS will become a reality soon. What do you think, how much will be the flight to the new ISS cost?

First, numbers...

 

SpaceX is building a fleet of 5-6 Crew Dragons, and retaining the ability to build more.  Boeing's is only building 2 Starliners, no spares. As such, SpaceX is in a far better position to provide commercial flights.  

 

Since the Commercial Crew contracts were  signed NASA has qualified the re-use of Falcon 9s and Crew Dragons, with C206 Endeavour flying its second mission April 22 (Demo Mission 1 was its first). Axiom AX-1 is yet to get a SpaceX vehicle assigned, but it's likely to be re-used vehicles.  

 

While Starliner can be re-used, with only 2 airframes and the NASA Commercial Crew contract to fulfill, it's not likely Boeing will risk them to do commercial rides.

 

Prices,

 

NASA's cost of a Crew Dragon flight is $55 million per seat and Boeing's Starliner $90 million per seat, but those were calculated based on a new launcher and vehicle.

 

Re-used, aka Flight Proven, vehicles are generally cheaper because their build costs can be amortized across numerous missions. 

 

Going forward, SpaceX intends to build literally thousands of Starships, a large number of them crew vehicles. They're talking an internal cost to launch a Starship of <$5 million. Think in terms of the US Transcontinental Railroad, but using Starships to go...wherever.

Edited by DocM
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FloatingFatMan
On 30/03/2021 at 12:19, DocM said:

Prices,

 

NASA's cost of a Crew Dragon flight is $55 million per seat and Boeing's Starliner $90 million per seat, but those were calculated based on a new launcher and vehicle.

 

Re-used, aka Flight Proven, vehicles are generally cheaper because their build costs can be amortized across numerous missions. 

 

Going forward, SpaceX intends to build literally thousands of Starships, a large number of them crew vehicles. They're talking an internal cost to launch a Starship of <$5 million. Think in terms of the US Transcontinental Railroad, but using Starships to go...wherever.

There are two very important things to take with a massive truckload of salt whenever Elon Musk talks about space, tunnels, or mass transit.  Dates and costs.

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DocM
8 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

There are two very important things to take with a massive truckload of salt whenever Elon Musk talks about space, tunnels, or mass transit.  Dates and costs.

SpaceX President Gwynne Shotwell handles the business end, including commercial scheduling. Look her up, quite the crackerjack.

 

Dates: their first private Crew Dragon flight is Inspiration4, which is scheduled for September 15, 2021. It uses an "experienced" vehicle; C207 Resilience, which returns from the ISS at the end of this month. Not going to ISS, its timing  won't be impacted by the Visiting Vehicle Schedule. Weather bumping other launches right, maybe.

 

Costs: based on the $55m/seat price for a  NASA Crew Dragon flight, and the published prices for reused commercial  Falcon 9's, it should decrement about 20-25% for each re-use as production costs are amortized. 

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DocM
Posted (edited)
On 02/04/2021 at 05:32, FloatingFatMan said:

There are two very important things to take with a massive truckload of salt whenever Elon Musk talks about space, tunnels, or mass transit.  Dates and costs.

Contracts trump speculation. 

 

I missed this, but the Space Adventures Crew Dragon mission has a per-seat of $35m, $20m less than NASA pays and $55m cheaper than Boeing or Soyuz.

 

Last I heard the mission plan is to beat the Earth orbit altitude record of 1,368 kilometers (739 nmi) set by Gemini 11.

 

https://apnews.com/article/e57b0241cac209caad4f16b88a2b6377

Quote

Space Adventures Inc. of Vienna, Virginia, also has teamed up with SpaceX. Planned for late next year, this five-day-or-so mission would skip the space station and instead orbit two to three times higher for more sweeping views of Earth. The cost: around $35 million. It’s also advertising rides to the space station via Boeing Starliner and Russian Soyuz capsules.

 

Edited by DocM
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FloatingFatMan
1 hour ago, DocM said:

Contracts trump speculation. 

 

I missed this, but the Space Adventures Crew Dragon mission has a per-seat of $35m, $20m less than NASA pays and $55m cheaper than Boeing or Soyuz.

 

Last I heard the mission plan is to beat the Earth orbit altitude record of 1,368 kilometers (739 nmi) set by Gemini 11.

 

https://apnews.com/article/e57b0241cac209caad4f16b88a2b6377

 

*sigh*

 

Oookaaay.. *cracks knuckles*

 

 

 

 

 

Not to mention the many times he's promised we'd be on Mars by 2020... 2024... 2025... Blah blah blah... Never mind the fact that orbital mechanics and the position of Mars says NOPE to many of his timings.

 

What Musk has achieved is remarkable yes, but do NOT believe his numbers, as they're pure bull poop.  Stop drinking the Muskoil.

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DocM
Posted (edited)

You really need to reduce your dependency on Thundetf00t for arguments, he's beinging busted by reality. 

 

1) SpaceX didn't claim it was 20x cheaper than the Shuttle, a NASA scientist did in a paper.

 

2) several of Thunderf00t's claims are disengenuous at best, trolling at worst 

 

Essentially, he's using dodgy & out of context numbers. In other cases, he just hand-waves inconvenient facts.

 

Just wrt launch costs. Other Thundetf00t trolls have been taken apart elsewhere.

 

WRT Loop, the Las Vegas Loop has completed Phase 1 (convention Center, and has other phases which the city wants to extended it all along the Strip and to the airport.  Other projects are in the planning of permitting stage.

 

HyperLoop development isn't SpaceX or Boring Co. Two other companies are doing that.

 

 

 

 

Edited by DocM
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FloatingFatMan

Whilst Thunderf00t uses simplified figures, I've done the math myself, and Musks claims still don't work out.  He's just disengenous with them, such as his claims over tunnelling costs, when he's just quoting his costs for digging the actual tunnel, where other companies costs include stations and infrastructure.

 

There's also his wild claims about dates, which are ALWAYS wrong.

 

There's also his business practices with Tesla. How it's almost impossible to get parts, how you can't even sell your Tesla used and the new owner getting all the same features...  In a lot of their practices they are even worse than Apple.

 

Look.  I like SpaceX despite their BS numbers, and I like Tesla's despite their shonky attitude to owners, but Musk himself is an a-hole and has proven that time and time again.  People need to stop thinking the sun shines out his backside, ESPECIALLY with the whole stupid hyperloop "idea" that's actually a 100 year old idea that's NEVER going to work as claimed because physics is a thing, and his nonsense with the whole Boring company.

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DocM
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Whilst Thunderf00t uses simplified figures, I've done the math myself, and Musks claims still don't work out.  He's just disengenous with them, such as his claims over tunnelling costs, when he's just quoting his costs for digging the actual tunnel, where other companies costs include stations and infrastructure.

WRT launches, first you need to separate out costs (SpaceX's internal outlays) and prices (what they charge customers), a mistake Thundetf00t repeatedly makes. He also doesn't separate out "Launch Services - fuelling the customers payload, pre-launch storage etc. from what it takes to get off the pad.  

 

As the Space Adventures launch shows, 4 passengers at $35m each = $140m because of reuse. Shuttle launches ran $450  - $1.5 billion for an average of 6 crew, depending on if you add in inflation.

 

It doesn't take a genius to see who wins that fight, but apparently Thundetf00t cannot. He keeps comparing Shuttle to  obsolete versions of Dragon and Falcon 9.

 

Boring is still cheaper/km, and they drill faster, which is why cities are knocking on their door. Las Vegas is a big project, but next up could be Miami.

 

Quote

 

There's also his wild claims about dates, which are ALWAYS wrong.

 

And yet he manages to over-deliver. Just ask NASA.

 

Quote

There's also his business practices with Tesla. How it's almost impossible to get parts, how you can't even sell your Tesla used and the new owner getting all the same features...  In a lot of their practices they are even worse than Apple.

 

Some Tesla features are subscriptions, so of course they won't travel. Neither does OnStar or other such items.

 

Parts are usually a problem with new vehicles during production ramps. Did I ever tell you how long it took me to get a cam gear for a new Ford I bought? They estimated 6 months. Ended up being faster to hit a junk yard.

 

Quote

Musk himself is an a-hole and has proven that time and time again. 

He doesn't suffer fools gladly for one thing, and yeah he can be mouthy. So can I. So can most people if they're honest. Most aren't, but will gleefully point out that failing in others.

 

Quote

..ESPECIALLY with the whole stupid hyperloop "idea" that's actually a 100 year old idea that's NEVER going to work as claimed because physics is a thing, and his nonsense with the whole Boring company.

 

Boring isn't working on HyperLoop, and neither is SpaceX. They do host a contest event for engineering students, but main development is being done by 2 other companies. 

 

This may change after the Las Vegas Loop is completed, a very large project just finishing Phase 1. Connecting the Vegas Loop to a California Loop via HyperLoop could be very cool.

 

From the Las Vegas city project docs, their Loop runs the length of the Strip. Very, very real.

 

630893145_LVLoop.thumb.jpg.91895844b7a3def8312def1a93fff5ef.jpg

 

Quote

 

 

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FloatingFatMan

Aah, the Vegas loop.... Where the car is only carrying 3-4 passengers at a time, the tunnel is barely wide enough to open the car doors once inside, has ZERO emergency vehicle access and no escape route once you're in it...  God help you if there's a crash or fire in there, because no one else will be able to. 

 

A mini-metro system wouldn't have cost much more and could move FAR more people at a time...  Or better yet, an over ground bus route which would cost next to nothing.

 

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FloatingFatMan
48 minutes ago, DocM said:

Some Tesla features are subscriptions, so of course they won't travel. Neither does OnStar or other such items.

 

Parts are usually a problem with new vehicles during production ramps. Did I ever tell you how long it took me to get a cam gear for a new Ford I bought? They estimated 6 months. Ended up being faster to hit a junk yard.

When I buy something, either new or used, I expect it to have the same features when I sell it on.

 

Check out Rich Rebuilds some time and maybe learn a little something about how Tesla treats people who try to fix their Tesla's...

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bguy_1986
On 06/04/2021 at 16:36, FloatingFatMan said:

Check out Rich Rebuilds some time and maybe learn a little something about how Tesla treats people who try to fix their Tesla's...

Watched the first episode on him attempting to put a V8 in a Tesla.... Now I'm hooked.  Rich and the other guy are pretty funny.

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FloatingFatMan
49 minutes ago, bguy_1986 said:

Watched the first episode on him attempting to put a V8 in a Tesla.... Now I'm hooked.  Rich and the other guy are pretty funny.

Go back and watch some of his Tesla rebuilds and all the problems he had getting parts and Tesla deactivating functions.  Not to mention after Rich getting many many people to buy Tesla and building enough referral points to get a free Sportster, Tesla decided to terminate his account and delete all his points for the high crime of repairing their cars.

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DocM
5 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Go back and watch some of his Tesla rebuilds and all the problems he had getting parts and Tesla deactivating functions.  Not to mention after Rich getting many many people to buy Tesla and building enough referral points to get a free Sportster, Tesla decided to terminate his account and delete all his points for the high crime of repairing their cars.

It's not just Tesla, and it's not just cars. Ford, Massey Ferguson, etc. will brick your tractor for such things. More and more the "Mobility" market will be selling "mobility as a service" (MaaS), not a transfer of ownership. 

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FloatingFatMan
52 minutes ago, DocM said:

It's not just Tesla, and it's not just cars. Ford, Massey Ferguson, etc. will brick your tractor for such things. More and more the "Mobility" market will be selling "mobility as a service" (MaaS), not a transfer of ownership. 

That doesn't make it OK.  Companies see one company get away with something, then they copy.  Looks at Samsung and how they first ridicule Apple for doing something, then a year later, copy them.  It's got to stop, and putting these people on pedestals is part of the problem.

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SteveL

Sorry, but, is this topic still called: Axiom Space - commercial space station? Are you guys going a little off-topic here?

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DocM
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SteveL said:

Sorry, but, is this topic still called: Axiom Space - commercial space station? Are you guys going a little off-topic here?

He can start Elon Sucks and Right to Repair topics if he wants, I'm done dealing with him.

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FloatingFatMan
9 hours ago, DocM said:

He can start Elon Sucks and Right to Repair topics if he wants, I'm done dealing with him.

Says the guy with zero credibility, now or ever again. :p 

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