I have a quesion ( general question )

[htmc]

It's been a while, but try "emerge gnomemeeting", then (i used a pinacle pctv card) in the settings window - under device settings for video device make sure it says /dev/video0 and audio device says /dev/dsp0  (i'm not sure if those are the default or not so just make sure).

Assuming you have drivers for your hardware installed (just like you would in os x or windows) you should be good to go.  It worked for me with a window user on net meeting just fine.

If you're not using gentoo, then you'll have to install software however your distribution wants you too.  Mandrake's documentation makes the process look pretty darn painless (much like the windows requirements for setting up webcams):

http://www.mandrakeuser.org/docs/mdoc/user/video-apps.html

EDIT: broken URL.

It's no iChat AV, but it's not terribly difficult either.

---

For video I find VLC does an excellent job.  "emerge VLC" will get it installed, and you're good to watch DVDs, WMV, RA, etc videos.  The OS X version now has OpenGL acceleration so it's only a matter of time before that shows up in the rest of the *nix and windows versions too.

I'm sure gnomemeeting is lovely, but since none of my friends use netmeeting or similar programs, it's not of much use. I want something like MSN or AIM where my non-nerd friends (yes, they actually exist!) can chat with me without having to worry about things like IP addresses and establishing connections. We, as a species, are past that stage. The point isn't to use the webcam, it's to see my friend. Doing this is trivial in Windows, so I will not accept anything more complicated from Linux.

As for vlc, jwz put it quite succinctly:

You didn't try vlc!

True, I hadn't. Now I have. It has an overly-complicated UI, (the Preferences panel is a festival of overkill) but at least it uses standard menus and buttons, so it doesn't make you want to claw your eyes out immediately. But, it can only play a miniscule number of video formats, so it's mostly useless. *plonk*

This is what I mean when I say that Linux is ready for the desktop only if you define 'the desktop' very, very narrowly. People who don't view the computer as an end in itself will not find Linux of interest. People who don't want to spend their lives working with computers about as advanced as they were in the early 90s won't find Linux of interest either.

I'm sorry if any of you find these comments sacreligious. I'm also sorry if I'm violating a grave taboo by saying things that aren't "constructive" about Linux. Finally, I'm sorry if my being 'mean' to Linux makes you feel sad.

[kongit]

Finally, I'm sorry if my being 'mean' to Linux makes you feel sad.

my tears well up inside :cry:

and linux isn't early 90s technology. In some places it is behind microsoft, while in others ahead.

[htmc]

when i ran lindows live i was able to watch a movie, a divx movie and a DVD. there is a mail manager in mozilla and yo ucan always download thunderbird. i was able to access my sdcard and i know GIMP offers ps functionality. i couldnt install anything or change any settings and i was able to do all that. but when i tried fedora i couldtn get it installed. BTW mandrake 10 was released today.

You poor, deluded person.

Did you bother to read the linked document? If you had, you would have seen that the problem is not only the ability to play the movies, but the fact that playing movies isn't a trivial operation. You may have been able to watch the movie, but in my experience none of the movie players in Linux are usable. This matters.

Thunderbird and Mozilla Mail are not enterprise-level PIM applications. Say what you like about Outlook, but there are no alternatives that I would trust in an enterprise setting, and there are no rivals that are as powerful and as polished as Outlook for personal use either. Evolution is working hard to become an Outlook-clone, but why use a clone when I can use the real thing?

I'm glad you managed to access your sdcard, but I can't. There are no drivers for mine, and even if there were I'd have to do the magic hokey-pokey dance and recompile my kernel while sacrificing a goat to Linus Torvalds and chanting strange incantations before it worked. Flawed, inconsistent hardware support is not going to convince me to switch.

As for GIMP offering PS functionality... I don't know where to begin with this one. This is ludicrously false. It offers a small, small subset of Photoshop's functionality. Real graphics work requires more than the Gimp can offer.

Yay for not being able to install Fedora, and yay for Mandrake releasing another version! I can promise you this: after 10 versions, they still haven't gotten it right.

What about the rest of those items (i.e 1, 3, 5 and 6)? What about those things I did since I posted that message?

I think Kongit pretty-much sums it up: it's good for him, and it may be good for the poster of the parent comment. But I believe in saying "it has these limitations, so decide on your own" rather than in saying "it's great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and leaving the poor guy to figure out the limitations after he's nuked his Windows partition.

Of course, it seems many neowin readers have problems with my policy of being honest with people.

[htmc]

my tears well up inside :cry:

and linux isn't early 90s technology. In some places it is behind microsoft, while in others ahead.

Like?

In which places, precisely, is Linux "ahead" of Microsoft?

Thank you in advance.

[the evn show]

Thunderbird and Mozilla Mail are not enterprise-level PIM applications. Say what you like about Outlook, but there are no alternatives that I would trust in an enterprise setting, and there are no rivals that are as powerful and as polished as Outlook for personal use either.

These folks are happy to help you run Outlook on Linux. Sure it's not the latest version - but Outlook XP is no slouch. Photoshop works too. If you really need "enterprise-level" software on your home desktop machine then there are ways to do it. CodeWeavers even support to help you with any trouble you may encounter.

http://www.codeweavers.com/site/store/?cat...rod-cwcooffc-dl

Installation is fairly simple, just run "sh install-crossover-office-2.1.0.sh" click through the graphical installer.

Installing office, photoshop, quicken, internet explorer, etc is not terribly difficult but it is a little different. You're still just 'clicking through forms' though.

Check out the code weaver support site for an online copy of the manual with screenshots and printed details.

Why use a clone...

Off the top of my head:

1) Price

2) You disagree with Microsoft's business practices

3) Licensing issues

4) You prefer the interface/feel/whatever of Evolution

I'm glad you managed to access your sdcard, but I can't.

You wouldn't blame Microsoft for someone buying unsupported hard and not being able to get it to work with Windows, I don't think it's fair to blame "Linux" (whomever you consider that to be) for you purchasing unsupported hardware.

There are no drivers for mine, and even if there were I'd have to do the magic hokey-pokey dance and recompile my kernel

I'll ignore the rest of your BS and just say that it is entirely possible to compile just the driver and load them as needed if want. If you can find binary drivers - great, those work fine too, but it's nice to have the option to recompile a kernel with custom modules for those people that are like that sort of thing too.

As for GIMP offering PS functionality... I don't know where to begin with this one. This is ludicrously false.

No arguement from me, but gimp is also several hundred dollars cheaper and the typical home user has no use for something as complex as photoshop. If they must use it: codeweavers can help them out.

What about the rest of those items (i.e 1, 3, 5 and 6)? What about those things I did since I posted that message?

Sure, but then I read this:

In fact, just show me how to do a webcam chat in Linux and I'll be satisfied.

leaving the poor guy to figure out the limitations after he's nuked his Windows partition.

I think you're the first person to even mention "nuking" a windows partition in this thread.

[htmc]

That article you posted deals with an individual who was not willing to put the time into learning linux.  Linux is not point and click to install.  Some programs are harder to install than others.  the individual instead of figuring out what was wrong went into a rant.  crybaby.  I have only found 2 programs I couldn't install and that was the programmers fault because of specific dependencies on libraries, and the order they had to be installed.  I could most likely install them but I don't have the urge to reinstall libraries.

Oh my God! I just realized you really were calling JWZ a n00b!

Are you crazy? jwz is like TEH LUNIX GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You may be familiar with some of his work. He did that 'netscape' thing for unix, then he started the mozilla project and along the way he came up with xscreensaver, which is included in almost every single linux install ever. He also has found time to run a nightclub and taunt the mental giants at slashdot.

Saying that jwz didn't take the time to learn Linux is preposterous. This claim ought to disqualify you from passing any further comment on Linux.

In any case, your conclusion is the most insightful comment you've ever made:

I could most likely install them but I don't have the urge to reinstall libraries.

[htmc]

These folks are happy to help you run Outlook on Linux.  Sure it's not the latest version - but Outlook XP is no slouch.  Photoshop works too.  If you really need "enterprise-level" software on your home desktop machine then there are ways to do it.  CodeWeavers even support to help you with any trouble you may encounter.

http://www.codeweavers.com/site/store/?cat...rod-cwcooffc-dl

Installation is fairly simple, just run "sh install-crossover-office-2.1.0.sh" click through the graphical installer.

Installing office, photoshop, quicken, internet explorer, etc is not terribly difficult but it is a little different.  You're still just 'clicking through forms' though.

Check out the code weaver support site for an online copy of the manual with screenshots and printed details.

Off the top of my head:

1) Price

2) You disagree with Microsoft's business practices

3) Licensing issues

4) You prefer the interface/feel/whatever of Evolution

You wouldn't blame Microsoft for someone buying unsupported hard and not being able to get it to work with Windows, I don't think it's fair to blame "Linux" (whomever you consider that to be) for you purchasing unsupported hardware.

I'll ignore the rest of your BS and just say that it is entirely possible to compile just the driver and load them as needed if want.  If you can find binary drivers - great, those work fine too, but it's nice to have the option to recompile a kernel with custom modules for those people that are like that sort of thing too.

No arguement from me, but gimp is also several hundred dollars cheaper and the typical home user has no use for something as complex as photoshop.  If they must use it: codeweavers can help them out.

Sure, but then I read this:

I think you're the first person to even mention "nuking" a windows partition in this thread.

Remind me again why I would use Windows apps with an alarmingly unstable pseudo-emulation layer when I could just run them natively in Windows. What's the point of using Linux if I'm using all Windows apps? Then explain to me why I would pay money to use Windows applications when I can use them for free in Windows.

Before you answer, go back and revisit my comment about ideological mouth-breathers. I don't buy into the whole 'disagree with Microsoft's business model' philosophy. I can respect the cost issue -- in fact, it's the primary reason why I support Linux -- but I don't begrudge MS the right to make a tidy profit.

The suggestion about the webcam wasn't a viable one. Since you didn't seem able to furnish a feasible solution for my webcamming needs, I thought I'd point you back to the rest of the list to see if you'd fare any better.

But thank you for your concrete suggestions. Half my motivation in posting that list was to see if anyone could show me how to do these things in Linux, because I'm not too happy about having to stay with WinXP. If you can give me good alternatives to Windows and windows-based apps, I'll be deeply grateful. But just telling me to use windows applications in linux is not too helpful.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Let's all be clear on this.

Linux makes a nice box to sit in the corner without a monitor. It can run a website, a ftp site, a POP3 email server and (via Samba) it can appear to be a NT4 server on your network. It's great for a business with 5-20 stations who doesn't want to pay the bucks to Microsoft for their Small Business Server product and the associated client licenses. That being said. I'd still run Windows on their desktop stations.

From the business perspective. The client saves a few thousand dollars that would otherwise go to Microsoft. Now a big percentage of that savings goes to the outsourced tech guy (me) but it's better in my pocket than in Billg's. Whether of not it's best for the client isn't my real concern, is it? grin.

Actually, to be fair, the client would otherwise have to pay Microsoft for Smallbiz Server + the client licenses + pay me to configure it all up anyway. SmallBiz server might be nice with all its wizards and stuff (puke) but I don't think that a small business owner is about to do it himself. Unless he plans to send out a lot of spam through Exchange Server...

[the evn show]

Remind me again why I would use Windows apps with an alarmingly unstable pseudo-emulation layer when I could just run them natively in Windows.

Why not? For someone who (apparently) didn't know about cross over office until a few minutes ago you're making some fairly bold statements about it's functionality. I suppose the reason is "you want to run linux" but also use some windows only applications for one reason or another.

Nobody is suggesting that you remove windows from your system, install linux, and then run everything via wine, crossover office, or vmware. It's just an option you have if you want it.

What's the point of using Linux if I'm using all Windows apps?

You're the only person suggesting that. If you want to run windows applications in linux it's entirely possible.

You said there was no "enterprise-level" PIM available on linux, I showed that you could use the very same example you were using.

Then explain to me why I would pay money to use Windows applications when I can use them for free in Windows.

WINE is a free alternative that will give you the same functionality but I figured you'd like the nice support, a printed manual, and install media.

Also, Crossover office is $59 vs $269 for Windows XP pro (I assume you'd be on a domain if you're required to use enterprise-level PIM software, which requires XP pro)

Finally, the licensing of cross over office is significantly less restrictive than the one for MS Windows and there is no product activation to worry about.

but I don't begrudge MS the right to make a tidy profit.

Nor do I, but I don't respect the way they illegally leverage their position as a monopoly to do it. For some of us that's a reason to avoid Microsoft software. You asked for reasons why someone wouldn't use Microsoft software, I gave some: I never said they'd be reasons for you not to.

The suggestion about the webcam wasn't a viable one. Since you didn't seem able to furnish a feasible solution for my webcamming need

I'll leave you to research your own problems, especially when you aren't terribly forthcoming with details I would need to help you, when you don't tell me what exactly your needs are, and when it's off topic. You asked for a way to do web-cam chat in linux, I posted one that works well for many people.

If you can give me good alternatives to Windows and windows-based apps, I'll be deeply grateful. But just telling me to use windows applications in linux is not too helpful.

People have suggested Evolution which you bluntly wrote off as "not good enough". I'd be willing to try and find some solutions to the specific issues you had with evolution or another client if you could tell me exactly what the problems you had were!

Also, you can use linux without ditching all of your windows applications if you don't want to. For once moving to linux doesn't require you to toss out absolutely everything you had on windows - you can take important programs with you and have the best of both worlds for the most part.

But that's another thread.

[kongit]

Also, you can use linux without ditching all of your windows applications if you don't want to. For once moving to linux doesn't require you to toss out absolutely everything you had on windows - you can take important programs with you and have the best of both worlds for the most part.

this is exactly what I do. I use linux 99% percent of the time, but I can't print through it because dell never made the linux drivers for my printer. So everytime I need to print something I have to shutdown my computer and boot into windows. I then print and shutdown and go back into linux. It makes printing a little bit of a hassle, but I don't print that often.

[d10p]

I run Gentoo Linux on my main Desktop box.

I have no problems with it. It does everything I need to do on my PC. Chat with friends. Surf the web.

This thread has way too much bitching. If you don't like Linux, fine, leave it be, stop being a Hitler. God, why are you people making such a big deal over this?

[CaKeY]

I will now prepare a short list of things I did today in Windows that I couldn't have done in Linux. I've been up for 3 hours.

1. Webcam chat

2. Photoshop

3. Use iTunes music stoer

4. Use the sdcard slot on my computer

5. Sync with my PPC

6. Use bluetooth

7. Outlook

8. Watch a movie

Last I checked (yesterday), you can't do any of these things in Linux without a fight, if at all. You can't, as jwz pointed out, even watch movies without fighting.

2. Photoshop

I've been using Crossover Office to run; Photoshop 7, DreamweaverMX, Flash 5, Vue d' Esprit 4 and several other "windows only" programs for over a year now with not a single crash. Crossover installs as easily as any windows app and you install your windows programs pretty much the same way you would on windows.

7. Outlook

In my opinion Evolution is not only better than microsoft outhouse, oops i mean outlook, it destroys it. EXCELLENT program.

8. Watch a movie

Jeez.. Ive never had any problems with that either. I watch movies often, burn dvd's and Ive never even had to fuss with anything. Just use whatever movie player comes with the disto Im using... mplayer, xine.. whatever. It just works.

[trpn]

I just glanced over these posts since most of them are useless, but one thing i do like is how I can keep everything up to date very easily... one thing that you cannot do on windows without time and money.

emerge sync && emerge -u world

or

apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade

or

swaret update && swaret upgrade (or whatever the swaret commands are, I don't use it)

... windows you have to go to windowsupdate for windows software, and the websites for every app that you have just to even check if there is an update, and sometimes money is required to purchase the update if it exists.

By the way, i think there is a msn messenger client that you can use with gnomemeeting... I dont know if it works well but if you want try it out: http://kmess.sourceforge.net/

[htmc]

Dear everyone,

I am not going to run Windows software under emulation. This is idiotic. If I'm going to use Linux, I'll use native software. If I want to use Windows applications, I'll do so in Windows. Why would I use Linux when all my software is from Windows? I might as well use Windows.

Furthermore, I am not going to pay money to run my Windows applications. I've already paid for the software, and for Windows. I am not going to fork out any more.

These are stupid suggestions. Please stop now. All they really say is "Yeah, we know Windows has the better applications. But still, use linux". You can either convince me to switch on the strength of Linux's applications, or else you should stop bringing up the applications at all.

Sincerely,

htmc

[kongit]

Linux isn't about the strength of the applications. it is about the strength of the whole system. Most programs that you run in windows (most) have an opensource counterpart which will do approxiamately the same thing. In some cases the linux versoin is better in others the windows is better. Instead of whining and asking about what programs to use. look. There is also a list of window <-> linux counterparts somewhere here: http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml

[CaKeY]

Dear everyone,

I am not going to run Windows software under emulation. This is idiotic. If I'm going to use Linux, I'll use native software. If I want to use Windows applications, I'll do so in Windows. Why would I use Linux when all my software is from Windows? I might as well use Windows.

Furthermore, I am not going to pay money to run my Windows applications. I've already paid for the software, and for Windows. I am not going to fork out any more.

These are stupid suggestions. Please stop now. All they really say is "Yeah, we know Windows has the better applications. But still, use linux". You can either convince me to switch on the strength of Linux's applications, or else you should stop bringing up the applications at all.

Sincerely,

htmc

Why the hell should I use a whole other operating system just to run a few apps? This is idiotic. :huh:

anyway...

[Fred Derf Veteran]

When are you boys going to realize that somebody's trolling? People who have legitimate questions are usually not so caustic.

[htmc]

When are you boys going to realize that somebody's trolling?  People who have legitimate questions are usually not so caustic.

It's handy to dismiss ideas you don't like as trolling, but I'm not a troll. If you can't come up with answers to my questions or solutions to my problems, you can either become a linux apologist (see slashdot) or ignore me. Neither option makes Linux a better OS, neither option earns Linux another user.

And sttroopers: I'm using Windows right now. Windows is the default. Linux is the alternative. You have to give me a good reason to switch away from Windows; I don't have to give you a good reason to stay.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

It's handy to dismiss ideas you don't like as trolling, but I'm not a troll. If you can't come up with answers to my questions or solutions to my problems, you can either become a linux apologist (see slashdot) or ignore me. Neither option makes Linux a better OS, neither option earns Linux another user.

And sttroopers: I'm using Windows right now. Windows is the default. Linux is the alternative. You have to give me a good reason to switch away from Windows; I don't have to give you a good reason to stay.

I'm not about to say that Linux is a superior desktop environment to Windows. I don't have to justify anything to anybody. I don't really care if you run Linux or not. Regardless of any of that, you are still trolling. Your request for knowledge about Linux is not genuine and you have already made up your mind. Fine. Other people think that Mac OS/X is superior. Good for them too. Some idiot out there is still trying to run an Amiga OS on a PC. Have fun. To each his own.

[KiwiNZ]

Since I can't remember when, I have seen so many threads like this and they achieve nothing . But if you would like the opinion of an aging IT Professional read the rest of this post .( I wounder what number it will be , I seldom post )

Linux , Windows , MAC OS , Amiga Dos, OS2 warp or what ever , it comes down to one thing .

If it does what you want then its the best . Thats it , there in a nutshell.

What is the best thing about Linux , Windows , MAC OS ? , choice it gives you choice. Just like Ford , BMW , Holden and Lada give you choice.

I use Linux when I want to have fun with my PC because fankly I find Windows no challenge , its just like a boring work tool like a spanner

or a screw driver. But thats just me .

I never try to push either camps , my advise I give like you try on different shoes try different OS's and find which one fits you .

My Windows of choice is XP Pro

My Linux of choice is not so clear cut ,I like both Fedora and Mandrake .

There. another post , hmmm

cheerie bye

[the evn show]

I am not going to run Windows software under emulation. This is idiotic.

Furthermore,

Crossover office isn't emulation, it's a re-implimentation of the win32 apis and procedures.

. Why would I use Linux when all my software is from Windows? I might as well use Windows.

Then don't use linux. You're the one who showed up in a thread asking about linux and demanded some attention.

I am not going to pay money to run my Windows applications. I've already paid for the software, and for Windows. I am not going to fork out any more.

Fine, if you're not willing to pay for anything and you're not willing to spend any of your own time using free alternatives that aren't as polished then stick with what you already have. You get what you pay for: in this case I guess that's nothing.

These are stupid suggestions. Please stop now. All they really say is "Yeah, we know Windows has the better applications. But still, use linux".

Linux has some wonderful features: everything from it's license, price, to availability of source code. If you're not interested in that - it's still there for other people who are interested.

If there are applications you cannot live without on windows then you can run them in Linux. If you like some of the native applications that's fine too.

You can either convince me to switch on the strength of Linux's applications, or else you should stop bringing up the applications at all.

Nobody cares if you switch to linux - this thread was never about you until you started screaming with your "list of things that I cannot do with Linux" and rants about not wanting to pay for anything, nor spend any time familiarizing yourself with the differences.

If you're interested in using linux there are people who will try and help you with any problems provided you're willing to give it your best shot. If you're not willing to give it your best shot then you're trolling at worst, and wasting our time at best.

I'm tempted to agree with fred666 on this one: you've started to read like a troll in this thread

[markwolfe Veteran]

Regarding htmc:

htmc will try to come across initially as trying to offer helpful suggestions, but always ends up starting arguments.

To judge for yourself whether he is a 'troll' or not, read a history of his posts:

htmc's history

As for me, I already know better than to have any more discussions with him. :yes:

[KiwiNZ]

Regarding htmc:

htmc will try to come across initially as trying to offer helpful suggestions, but always ends up starting arguments.

To judge for yourself whether he is a 'troll' or not, read a history of his posts:

htmc's history

As for me, I already know better than to have any more discussions with him. :yes:

Agreed

[PseudoRandomDragon]

Yep, if you ignore the trolls, they will go away. Most people here (including me) have already confirmed that he is a troll. I learned to just ignore trolls. You should too.

It is hard though.

[[ucw]prophet]

See if we can't get this thing back on track.

what "things" linux have and windows dont ?

Here are my current top 5:

1. APT and similar applications

Most Linux distributions come with APT or a similar program that allows easy software updates. If they don't, it's not difficult to find and install a version for any specific distribution. While it an be argued that Microsoft has Windows update, it only allows you to download patches, drivers, and updates to specific Windows software. APT and similar programs go beyond this step, allowing users to check for newer verisons of programs, automatically download and install them.

2. Available Free Software

Part of the benefit of Linux is the amount of free and open sourced software available. While you can find some of the same free apps ported to Windows and even Mac OS, a vast majority of these programs are designed for use specifically on Linux and other Unix-like distributions. Some people may claim that there are too many choices, but that's part of the beauty of open source software. You can use the Table of Equivalent/Replacement/Analogs of Windows Software in Linux to get an idea of the vast offerings available for Linux users as compared to a Windows user.

http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml

3. OS Stability

While some people may disagree with this point, Linux operating systems are known for their stability. While it's true that applications can and do crash in Linux, it doesn't affect the performance of the OS itself. Windows, on the other hand, is quite a stable OS when there is nothing on the system. However, the more applications you have running at any given period greatly increase the odds for the OS to lock up.

4. Customizable for your needs

Linux can be as powerful or as minimal as a user requires for any given computing task, while Windows remains constant with its GUI and GUI-based applications. For example, if you're on your laptop running Linux, you can easily go from the GUI to a command line interface to save on battery usage. Since Microsoft no longer uses DOS, there is no such option available to Windows users, thus a laptop running the OS will drain it's batteries much faster.

5. Application installation security

In order for Linux users to install any application outside of their home directory, they must have the root password. As a result, any application that tries to install to any directory outside the users home directory must be executed with administrative privilages. On the more recent Windows operating systems, there are administrative rights, but by default all users are considered administrators unless the option is turned off after the fact. As a result, most user accounts are considered administrator accounts, allowing for any applications to be installed and/or executed. This includes viruses, trojans, and spyware which have become a huge issue over the past few years for all Window users. If you're using any of the Windows 9x operating systems, there are no administrative privilages at all. The operating systems are wide open.