Zell Miller

[Azadre]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/weapons.asp

This guy is a NUT.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=155

[nemo]

I guess somebody heard his speech tonight.

[....]

Did Kerry Vote "No" on Body Armor for Troops?

Yes, along with $87 billion worth of other things. But Bush didn't send enough in the first place.

So let's show him by not sending it to them the second time around. :blink:

[Dashel]

Was that a rebuttal or acceptance of this apparent misinformation that everyone has been slinging?

The problem with body armor argument is that my friends went 10 months without armor, even before this bill was voted on and I have every right to blame Bush for that. Or that the 87 Billion was primarily for rebuilding efforts, not to secure better troop equipment. Body armor was only 300 Million of the 87 BILLION dollar proposal.

Also don't forget that this 87 BILLION brought the war total to over 160 BILLION so far. Now I have no problems with the expenditure per se, but come on. Are we really that afraid that our lives and liberty are in such danger? That we would spend all this money, in addition to trading more liberty for security, because we are truly that afraid?

[Bearded Kirklander]

Was that a rebuttal or acceptance of this apparent misinformation that everyone has been slinging?

The problem with body armor argument is that my friends went 10 months without armor, even before this bill was voted on and I have every right to blame Bush for that.  Or that the 87 Billion was primarily for rebuilding efforts, not to secure better troop equipment.  Body armor was only 300 Million of the 87 BILLION dollar proposal. 

Also don't forget that this 87 BILLION brought the war total to over 160 BILLION so far.  Now I have no problems with the expenditure per se, but come on.  Are we really that afraid that our lives and liberty are in such danger?  That we would spend all this money, in addition to trading more liberty for security, because we are truly that afraid?

Misinformation? Pot = Kettle?

The 87 billion was for a lot more than just rebuilding, and that rebuilding that was included was to be paid back in part from Iraqi Oil Revenues. You remember that part, right? It was not a requirement of the bill, but a stated goal nevertheless. A committment from Iraq that it would try to make that happen as best it could.

300 million for body armor is a great start. Also, the money was for more weapons, ammunition, military supplies, maintenance (parts, lubricants, etc), medical supplies and a whole lot more. Trying to intimate that almost all of that money was used only for rebuilding is deceptive at the least.

As for your talk of 160 billion and being afraid, that is not what rebuilding is about. Did you study what lead up to WWII and what, in part, led to the current Iraq War?

We bailed on Germany after WWI and imposted punitive sanctions that helped lay the groundwork for the hate-filled Nazi party and Adolph Hitler. Because the allies, including the US, did not follow through in rebuilding Germany, we were faced with a new militaristic Germany bent on world domination.

So all the allies decided that after World War II, they would not make the same mistake again, and they helped invest in rebuilding both Germany and Japan. By helping to rebuilid, we did not leave them in a position where they were seething at the allies for abandoning them. We did not try to ground them into the earth with punishing sanctions and requirements that were impossible to meet. We helped rekindle their economies so they could pay reparations and still live a decent quality of life.

What happened when Bush 41 did not follow through on taking out Saddam in the original Gulf War? When we simply turned away and did not take that final step to replace Saddam and help rebuild Iraq? When we turned our back on the Kurds and left them to be slaughtered by Saddam?

The current Iraq war happened. If Bush 41 had done the job, there would not have been an Iraq war in this decade, in all liklihood.

Does that ring any bells with you? Make sense to you at all?

[Dashel]

It is misinformation if the post is true with the ways the politicians and their apologists portray the issue to their own ends. I still haven't heard anything to make me question this. That is a fact and world history aside, my issue with the money is with the lack of forethought by the administration that allowed us to run 90 billion over budget in addition to the feeling that the money could have been better spent because I am not afraid of terrorists. I never meant to imply that all of the money was for rebuilding (only a third if I remember correctly).

So you are basically saying that you aren't afraid or doing this out of fear of attack but to clean up Bush Sr's mess?

[Bearded Kirklander]

It is misinformation if the post is true with the ways the politicians and their apologists portray the issue to their own ends.  I still haven't heard anything to make me question this. That is a fact and world history aside, my issue with the money is with the lack of forethought by the administration that allowed us to run 90 billion over budget in addition to the feeling that the money could have been better spent because I am not afraid of terrorists. 

I never meant to imply that all of the money was for rebuilding (only a third if I remember correctly).

So you are basically saying that you aren't afraid or doing this out of fear of attack but to clean up Bush Sr's mess?

Interesting how you seem to want to massage and interpret things to fit your preferred view.

However, that said, I can agree with you on the lack of long-term contingency planning. The rush to war was perhaps far faster than it needed to be, even if I agree that it was good to take Saddam out. It was much more urgent during the original Gulf War than it was when this latest Iraq conflict started.

On your statment that you did not mean to imply that all of the money was for rebuilding, my statement was:

"Trying to intimate that almost all of that money was used only for rebuilding is deceptive at the least."

Your statement on your main post was, and I quote:

"the 87 Billion was primarily for rebuilding efforts, not to secure better troop equipment"

So when you say that you never meant to imply that all of the money was for rebuilding, I think you can understand how that doesn't ring very true, can you not? I did quote you properly, did I not?

Your new statement that only a third was actually for rebuilding would seem to undermine your claim that the money was primarily for rebuilding efforts, would it not?

Perhaps you were simply confused, and if that is the case, then I can certainly understand that. After all, one of the more important things is to get to the truth, even if we stumble along the way, don't you think?

Lastly, as for your statement about fear and the mess of Bush Sr, I don't fully understand what you are trying to get at. I'm not personally doing anything out of fear of attack, but one of the points made at the UN was that Saddam was an imminent threat. It is clear now that may have been exaggerated due to poor intelligence, yes, but that does not mean the other reasons stated to the American People, such as Human Rights violations combined with continued, long-term non-compliance with UN resolutions and providing a safe harbor for some terrorist groups, among others, were not still very valid indeed.

[Dashel]

For clarity, I did phrase that statement badly. "the 87 Billion was primarily for rebuilding efforts, not to secure better troop equipment" was more of a comparison between the rebuilding funds and the money for body armor which did personally effect friends of mine.

[Bearded Kirklander]

For clarity, I did phrase that statement badly.? "the 87 Billion was primarily for rebuilding efforts, not to secure better troop equipment" was more of a comparison between the rebuilding funds and the money for body armor which did personally effect friends of mine.

On the body armor issue alone, I may be able to understand your thought process. However, the bulk of that money was for Military Supplies, including body armor, so I guess it seemed that you were taking that part out of context.

My apologies if I was mistaken.:))