FireFox or Opera ?

[red.]

guys we should stop bickering especially as there are people out there who think msn explorer is a great browser (yes i know someone like this).

[Rix]

guys we should stop bickering especially as there are people out there who think msn explorer is a great browser (yes i know someone like this).

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Hey, dont diss it, i used to use that back in the days, it was great :) told me the weather, welcomed me when i started it and everything :p

[Kilroy-was-here]

Ah, so you haven't even bothered to try it properly! I get it.

So Opera is bloated, why?

How does your opinion matter, when the facts speak for themselves?

Have you even tried Opera 8?

- Standards compliance: Tie.

- JS/DOM: Tie.

- Toolbars: Tie, if you ignore the ads in Opera.

- Open in background: Yeah, Firefox "stole" that from Opera :)

- Web dev toolbar: There's one for Opera too (and they claim that it kicks Firefox's butt).

Improves, how? It's already smaller, faster, and a smoother experience than Firefox...

585248920[/snapback]

Yes, I installed Opera 8 and have tried it.

Yes, I have actually used the voice thing for a while, thought not in Opera 8. Did not like it.

My opinion matters for me, since I am someone who browses the Internet.

Standards compliance and JS/DOM are definitely not a tie. DOM code just does not work in Opera. Also, Opera has some quirks with standards compliance. Honestly.

I admit that I did not know the web developer toolbar existed for Opera. I think that it is very important and it might actually make me go back to Opera once they sort out the standards compliance and JS/DOM thing.

Some of you argue that Opera takes up less space in the toolbar area without ads. That may be true, but the fact remains that with the ads it takes up more space. Now I'm not really worried about tiny bits, but it really does bother me sometimes.

Opera 8 has a lot of improvements, that's true. However, I don't expect the Firefox devs to do nothing either. For now, I'm staying with Firefox. When Opera 8 is ready, I will compare it to the latest version of Firefox (which I think at that point might be something newer than 1.0) and see which one is the best.

It all comes down to preference anyway. I just have a better feeling when browsing with Firefox. Some of you have that with Opera. Let's just stop about the "bloat" thing (I know I started it) and tell what we like or dislike about a particular browser, and why.

I hope the author of this topic will try out both browsers and find out for him/herself what he/she likes best.

:)

[Pallab]

wht i hav noticed about FF users is dat most(not the wrd..most...there r exceptions) r ignorant.

Like grudge himself!!

From his posts it is evident that he hasnt even tried opera properly b4 saying FF is the best of all or opera sucks

Most people supporting ff says things like FF rocks and Opera suxx without reasons.If any reasons r put forward..they r mostly it is free and has extensions or r rubbish reasons!

However there r exceptions.

Being an opera fan..i cannot deny though that opera messes up with pages containing java script a lot of times.

But opera can not be blamed always.

Go to Myopera forums and look at the section called open the web,and u wud c that many web masters r vindictive 2wards opera and purposely send wrong code to it when it is detected!!!

I have always maintained FF is good but Opera is better.

U can freely use FF but dun say opera suxx..that ****es me off!

[vcv]

I don't know why my post isn't displaying the BB code! I have went through and made sure all tags are closed, to no avail. Sorry :(

I know these points have already been addressed.. but I'm going to put my touch on it.

An example: the voice features that read out a piece of text. It's funny to try out once, but isn't really useful since it doesn't sound natural and takes too much time IMO.

You have to download the voice libs the first time you want to use them. Thus, the code is NOT INCLUDED, and has no effect on speed or memory usage.

Another example: the built-in email client, M2. I don't need an email client in my web browser. I use Gmail or Hotmail and they work fine for me.

M2 is a few hundred KB at most. Not only that, it is a DLL, and thus the code is not loaded until you use it. Furthermore, you can disable M2 altogether or just not use it.

Third example: IRC support. I use mIRC for chatting through IRC, so why would I want extra functionality for that in my web browser?

Same as above. A DLL, can be disabled or just not used.

Then why do I see a "voice" icon in my toolbar in Opera 8?

So you can enable it easily if you want to use it. Why don't you TRY something out before trying to argue against it?

Sorry, I am not confused by the terms. I know that Firefox is a larger download. I'm just argueing Opera could be an even smaller download if it didn't incorporate all the extra features I don't need. Firefox does this by using the extension system. I know Firefox is a larger download and I can't really understand why. I'm not bothered by the size of download packages, actually, since it only matters several seconds to me anyway.

Again, since they are DLLs, they are not even loaded unless you use them. Why does it matter if Opera "could be smaller" when it is already more than 1mb smaller than Firefox? You're just looking for things to hold against Opera.

I personally feel Opera is not lighter than Firefox. There is nothing you can do about it, I have tried to explain why I think so, but you seem to think my opinion is irrelevant.

And you know why you feel that way? Because of the default interface Opera used prior to 8.0. It gave the ILLUSION that it was not lighter.. and that stuck with you. But with Opera 8.0, the interface is pretty much the same as Firefox. The download is still smaller. The memory footprint is now on par or better than Firefox. The # of features does not make Firefox lighter than Opera. Anyone who believes this is simply ignorant of how software/code works.

Also, the toolbars in Opera are too large for my preference. I know that I can make them smaller, but it will require me to mess around with settings to choose smaller icons. I don't want that, I want it out of the box.

Wow. Are you even reading my posts? TRY OPERA 8.0, THE TOOLBARS ARE NOT 'LARGE'.

Smaller toolbars

Wrong.

Right-click on a bookmark and choose "open as background tab"

Middle-click in Opera.

Web developer toolbar - this one is AWESOME!

There is one for Opera too

I might once switch back to Opera if it improves a lot and if it becomes free. However, I doubt it will ever become free, so I doubt I will ever switch back to Opera.

If the price is the ONLY thing you measure to decide whether or not to use a product, you are depriving yourself.

You didn't take the favorites bar off of Firefox, and you didn't switch the icon size to small icons. You also have no menu bar in Opera. You've really put that thing through a lot of customization, while you didn't bother to touch one customization feature of Firefox. Real nice comparison there. :rolleyes:

worbd, you can't claim that Firefox and Opera have a tie in standards compliancy. You may be able to say that about JavaScript and DOM support (and I'm skeptical about that), but you definitely can't get away with the standards compliancy statement.

Actually, the menubar IS there. Not only that, he didn't make any changes to Opera besides for getting rid of the ad. AND he did customize Firefox, he made the tab bar visible.

Yes, I installed Opera 8 and have tried it.

Then explain your ignorance?

Yes, I have actually used the voice thing for a while, thought not in Opera 8. Did not like it.

7.60 previews then?

DOM code just does not work in Opera.

Hahaha. Right. Just does not work.. then I guess all those sites that utilize it work for me in Opera magically.

Also, Opera has some quirks with standards compliance. Honestly.

As does Firefox, or any other browser. Why don't you point these quirks out?

It all comes down to preference anyway. I just have a better feeling when browsing with Firefox. Some of you have that with Opera. Let's just stop about the "bloat" thing (I know I started it) and tell what we like or dislike about a particular browser, and why.

That is fine. And we are discussing what we like and dislike. I just hated to see you misinformed about particular things in Opera, so my intent was to inform you of the truth.

Edited January 7, 2005 by vcv

[worbd]

worbd, you can't claim that Firefox and Opera have a tie in standards compliancy. You may be able to say that about JavaScript and DOM support (and I'm skeptical about that), but you definitely can't get away with the standards compliancy statement.

Sure I can. Several sites use advanced CSS which works fine in Opera, but breaks completely in Firefox. These sites are of course specifically created to show off what CSS can do.

Why should one pay and register for a software when we get other browsers for free?

Even if opera is good, why should we buy?

We have Firefox, maxton, internet explorer...

Because neither of them are the same as Opera. You don't get the same functionality, integrated in the same way, in a tiny package.

My opinion matters for me, since I am someone who browses the Internet.

You can say that "my opinion is that the sky is green", but when the fact is that the sky is blue... Well, I don't know what that would say about you :)

Standards compliance and JS/DOM are definitely not a tie. DOM code just does not work in Opera.

Uh, "DOM code just does not work in Opera" is a rather broad statement. Of course DOM works in Opera. It works fine.

Also, Opera has some quirks with standards compliance. Honestly.

Sure it does, as does Firefox.

Opera 8 has a lot of improvements, that's true. However, I don't expect the Firefox devs to do nothing either. For now, I'm staying with Firefox. When Opera 8 is ready, I will compare it to the latest version of Firefox (which I think at that point might be something newer than 1.0) and see which one is the best.

So you expect Opera to stop improving at Opera 8 then? Of course not.

[worbd]

What's wrong with NeoWin? If you quote too much, it simply stops formatting things?

Is this a known bug in the forum?

[Kilroy-was-here]

wht i hav noticed about FF users is dat most(not the wrd..most...there r exceptions) r ignorant.

Like grudge himself!!

From his posts it is evident that he hasnt even tried opera properly b4 saying FF is the best of all or opera sucks

Most people supporting ff says things like FF rocks and Opera suxx without reasons.If any reasons r put forward..they r mostly it is free and has extensions or r rubbish reasons!

However there r exceptions.

Being an opera fan..i cannot deny though that opera messes up with pages containing java script a lot of times.

But opera can not be blamed always.

Go to Myopera forums and look at the section called open the web,and u wud c that many web masters r vindictive 2wards opera and purposely send wrong code to it when it is detected!!!

I have always maintained FF is good but Opera is better.

U can freely use FF but dun say opera suxx..that ****es me off!

585250171[/snapback]

We are not ignorant, but it is a fact that you can not use proper English.

Wow.  Are you even reading my posts? TRY OPERA 8.0, THE TOOLBARS ARE NOT 'LARGE'. 

[...]

As does Firefox, or any other browser.  Why don't you point these quirks out?

That is fine.  And we are discussing what we like and dislike.  I just hated to see you misinformed about particular things in Opera, so my intent was to inform you of the truth.

[...]

585250300[/snapback]

I for one haven't come across any quirks in Firefox.

I have tried out the voice features, AND I tried out Opera 8. You are the one who is not reading, as I have stated this several times already.

Please do not presume I am stupid, when I say something about Opera, that means I have actively used it and its features.

So you expect Opera to stop improving at Opera 8 then? Of course not.

Of course I did not expect that. I said I will try out Opera 8 when it is final. I expect both Firefox and Opera to improve.

[vcv]

I for one haven't come across any quirks in Firefox.

That does not mean they do not exist

I have tried out the voice features, AND I tried out Opera 8. You are the one who is not reading, as I have stated this several times already.

You tried out the voice features, yet you didn't know the library needed to be downloaded?

You tried out Opera 8, yet you still made claims about a cluttered interface/larger toolbars?

Can't you see why I am wondering if you actually TRIED Opera8? Not just used it, but tried it out for more than 10 minutes.

Please do not presume I am stupid, when I say something about Opera, that means I have actively used it and its features.

I do not think you are stupid at all. I just think you remain ignorant about some things with Opera.

[Kilroy-was-here]

That does not mean they do not exist

I know, but I have come across them in Opera.

You tried out the voice features, yet you didn't know the library needed to be downloaded?

I tried them out in Opera 7.6 (I believe, don't know the exact version).

You tried out Opera 8, yet you still made claims about a cluttered interface/larger toolbars?

Yes, but it's mostly the ads that annoy me.

Can't you see why I am wondering if you actually TRIED Opera8?  Not just used it, but tried it out for more than 10 minutes.

Yes I actually used it to browse with for a day (like 10 hours :p ). Did you try Firefox for a while? Not a personal attack, just wondering.

I do not think you are stupid at all.  I just think you remain ignorant about some things with Opera.

585250393[/snapback]

Good. I do not think I remain ignorant about some things with Opera, since I tried Opera out as well.

[vcv]

Yes I actually used it to browse with for a day (like 10 hours  ). Did you try Firefox for a while? Not a personal attack, just wondering.

I've used Firefox since it was phoenix. Not everyday, but a few times a week. And I always try out a new version.

Good. I do not think I remain ignorant about some things with Opera, since I tried Opera out as well.

Then do not type ignorant statements.

[Elliott]

Sure I can. Several sites use advanced CSS which works fine in Opera, but breaks completely in Firefox. These sites are of course specifically created to show off what CSS can do.

585250328[/snapback]

Show me one. I'd love to analyze the code.

[vcv]

Show me one. I'd love to analyze the code.

585251374[/snapback]

http://www.turtlenecksoftware.com/bah-humbug.htm

http://www.literarymoose.info/-/

Edited January 7, 2005 by vcv

[Elliott]

http://www.turtlenecksoftware.com/bah-humbug.htm

http://www.literarymoose.info/-/

585251659[/snapback]

The first one doesn't seem to look right in Opera 7.54 (there's nothing in that "scrollable area"). The second one seems better, but since it uses a somewhat undocumented method, you can't really use that as standards compliancy. That's like saying IE filters are standards when nobody else can see them.

[Pink Floyd Veteran]

personally, I think if opera was free, that would make a real debate!

[carpediem]

The first one doesn't seem to look right in Opera 7.54 (there's nothing in that "scrollable area"). The second one seems better, but since it uses a somewhat undocumented method, you can't really use that as standards compliancy. That's like saying IE filters are standards when nobody else can see them.

585252029[/snapback]

Try it with 8.0 instead?

[Redestium]

Opera rocks and so do I.

[ZZOOzzoo]

Hey, dont diss it, i used to use that back in the days, it was great :) told me the weather, welcomed me when i started it and everything :p

585249537[/snapback]

:rofl: I agree, I loved how MSN Explorer welcomed me. "Good Afternoon!!!"

Opera rocks and so do I.

585252109[/snapback]

:devil:

[Elliott]

Try it with 8.0 instead?

585252082[/snapback]

Is there a beta for OS X?

[Night.Hawk]

Is there a beta for OS X?

585252453[/snapback]

Your using OS X? Maybe that's it because when I opened that page in Opera 7.54 (Windows), it showed "/ Bah, Humbug /" over and over, then it had the word Bah Humbug down the left side and a scrollbar down the right.

In Firefox I see the words, but not the word at the left or the scroll at the right.

Edited January 8, 2005 by NeoTech

[Draconian Guppy]

Bill Gates claims that Internet Explorer is the safest browser there is. Your point?

Funny how most of these were invented or pioneered by Opera... :)

- Download manager like the one Opera has had for years.

- "Fast browsing"... Uh, yeah... I have a "car with wheels", and I love it! By the way, Opera is small and fast ehough to fit on mobile phones... (The same engine, the UI is different.)

- Saving pages. Opera's saved pages since v1.

- Tabbed browsing. Yes, like Opera introduced to the mainstream browsers...

- Not a resource sucker: Again, Opera is used on mobiles. Firefox isn't. Minimo is work in progress, but still too huge to be of any use.

- Popup blocker built in: Yes, yes. Opera was the first browser to have a popup blocker, AFAIK.

- Search tab for search engines: Yet another Opera invention.

- More Plugins and add-ons are available + more Extentions: Yeah, like just about any other browser. They can all be extended in various ways. Me, I don't like Extension Hell and the security issues that may arise.

Guess where Maxthon got it from... OPERA!

Opera with browser and mail is smaller than Firefox alone. Also, Thunderbird is now trying to copy Opera's "virtual folders" concept (which Google copies as well) :)

Zooming is useful for a number of reasons, for example for accessibility reasons (not everyone has perfect eye sight). But I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand that.

Except, you have to restart Firefox to apply a theme... :D

Extensions? No thanks. My time is more valuable than that.

Firefox's interface is harder to customize for most people, and it is less flexible, unless you want to hack the code yourself. Opera's is more powerful.

Just because it does not favor Firefox doesn't mean that download size is irrelevant. Not everyone is on broadband, you know.

I can't see any free browsers that are better than Opera. Maybe you prefer Firefox, but price is not a measure of quality.

Opera works smoothly out of the box, without exposing you to Extension Hell. It is a tiny download, and has everything in this small package. Everything is tightly integrated, unlike extensions that go in all directions.

In short, Opera is a smoother, more polished Internet experience.

585241837[/snapback]

yeah, all he said :p

To the best of my knowledge, Opera's download manager is as fast as it's gonna get.

585241974[/snapback]

what he said as well :p

heh, seriosly, I've used FX and Opera, loving Opera 8.00, no need for extensions or downloading anything extra that fx needs, but opera has! don't get me started on the ads, they didn't bother me, I was so pleased with Opera I decided to pay for it ( total license $26 plus tax or so, can't remember lol payed for opera but not my OS ;) ). Operas memory footprint is a lot smaller than FX.

Opera is just the best, hands down. :yes:

[carpediem]

Is there a beta for OS X?

585252453[/snapback]

I believe there is:

http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=78078

[Elliott]

The page still doesn't seem to work correctly. Even with Opera 8.0. I will say that Opera 8 is nicer (and much more intuitive) than 7.54, but I still doesn't strike me as worth the payment. Care to clue me on the features you guys really find useful (and don't just start listing random features of Opera)? I wouldn't ever use Mail, IRC, or things like it (except RSS) inside my browser, so don't say those features over again. I'm more interested in browsing features. OmniWeb has a plethora of nice browser-oriented features, so I was wondering how Opera competes.

[x-byte]

The page still doesn't seem to work correctly. Even with Opera 8.0. I will say that Opera 8 is nicer (and much more intuitive) than 7.54, but I still doesn't strike me as worth the payment. Care to clue me on the features you guys really find useful (and don't just start listing random features of Opera)? I wouldn't ever use Mail, IRC, or things like it (except RSS) inside my browser, so don't say those features over again. I'm more interested in browsing features. OmniWeb has a plethora of nice browser-oriented features, so I was wondering how Opera competes.

585252698[/snapback]

I use Opera because I feel I have more control over the pages I visit. IE and Firefox feels so... I don't know... not the same. When I first tried Opera 7.0 I fell in love with it instantly.

[Pallab]

The page still doesn't seem to work correctly. Even with Opera 8.0. I will say that Opera 8 is nicer (and much more intuitive) than 7.54, but I still doesn't strike me as worth the payment. Care to clue me on the features you guys really find useful (and don't just start listing random features of Opera)? I wouldn't ever use Mail, IRC, or things like it (except RSS) inside my browser, so don't say those features over again. I'm more interested in browsing features. OmniWeb has a plethora of nice browser-oriented features, so I was wondering how Opera competes.

585252698[/snapback]

Well some of the browaing features which i am very fond of are:-

1.The ability to resume ur sessions even if there is a crash.

There is an extension in FF that allows you to do the same.But it doesn't load the page from the cache.So if u had like 10 windows open,then i can really clog up your connection(esp dial-up)

2.The ability to save notes while surfing with ease.Helpfull while researching for my school projects/

3.Magic Wand

4.It is the fastest around.For people with slow connection,it is a boon.

5.Ability to zoom in and out with ease.

[Tip.Try zooming into those high quality porn picts :p ]

I think everyone would agree that horizontal scrolling is the most irritating thing while surfing.

Opera helps you to get rid of that.It has an option to autometically fit pages to window width.

I think RSS feed is a great advantage.Like subscribe to the Neowin RSS feed and you don't have to visit neowin's oages to get the latest news

Btw,I am hearing about Omniweb for the first time.How is it?