FireFox or Opera ?

[vcv]

btubutbubut those features make it bloated!!!

Sadly, most of these people have no idea how Software works.

[worbd]

Well you guys using the "Kill Firefox" image aren't much better than the Opera flamers.

AFAIK, they didn't start using it until heated debates with Firefox users...

I'll keep on preferring Firefox for its speed and lean feel. That's not going to change any time soon unless Opera drops most of what it has inside of it.

The funny thing is still that Opera is smaller, faster and more memory efficient, despite having more features than Firefox. Also, I bet I can surf at least ten times faster with a default Opera installation than you can with a default Firefox installation.

Anyway, you are one of the people who keep this thread going with your silly insinuations that Opera is somehow bloated, despited being a smaller download than Firefox.

[lav-chan]

That's a horrible analogy.? Ads aren't the same as brand name.

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No kidding. It wouldn't be an ANALOGY if they were the same, English professor. You're saying that something is not free just because you don't like some particular down side that it includes. Whether that's because it comes with advertisements or because it's cherry red when you wanted lime green or because it's Sony instead of Magnavox, the point is that you're saying it's not free because it comes with something you don't like. If i LIKE the advertisements (i don't, but supposing i did), is it still not free?

Also, I don't know if you're dumb, retarded, or both, but it's Firefox.? I know you think it's cool or funny, but it just makes you look stupid.? Even a kindergartener can master that word.

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I don't know if you're dumb, retarded, or both, but i said 'Firefox' twice in that post. Clearly i've mastered the word.

I call it Firetruck because i think it's a cute nickname. If i used Firefox, i would use Firesomething to rename it Firetruck. It doesn't carry the slightest negative connotation. It certainly has no political motivation, in any case, so it's hardly as bad as M$ or Winblows or anything like that, which are used excessively here and elsewhere.

You pick the features you want and download them.? Firefox is pretty much stripped when you download it.? I fix computers for a living.? I have a 4 year degree to be able to fix computers.? How many degrees do you have?? ZERO, you are still in high school.? Get a clue kid.

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And, uh, Internet Explorer isn't stripped? You're telling me that Opera has the most features, and Internet Explorer has the second-most, and Firefox has the least? I think you're selling your browser of choice pretty short there.

Furthermore, your PhD in 'FIXING COMPUTERS' (whatever that means) is hardly an indication of your intelligence or your mastery of programming jargon. President Bush has a degree from Harvard AND Yale, and half of America still thinks he's a complete moron, so i don't really see why you expect me to be impressed by your 4-year journey through college.

Also, i'm not in high school, thanks. They skipped me a grade. Wish i still was, though. High school beats real life any day.

(For the record, by the way, even though i like Opera a lot and the amount of Firetruck propaganda flooding the Internet is pretty depressing, i do agree that 'Kill Firefox' is kind of childish.)

[xhobbitx]

^ owned.

Personal preference to me is Firefox, never really tried Opera but I was an Internet Explorer user for a long time, and eventually switched after hearing that Firefox was a safer browser, and I just stuck with it, never felt compelled to try Opera, and the fact I had to pay always turned me off as I am a cheapskate :), Firefox always did what I wanted to, and that was be a nice, simple, customisable browser, that I could add functionality to if I needed it. It's fast enough for me, I barely notice a delay between pressing my "WWW" multimedia key [which has the IE logo on it :p] and having it open, as for opening pages faster, I find that my connection does that work for me.

The best way to discover what browser you should use is to try both of them, and see which is most suited to your needs, rather than asking for biased opinions.

[Xtreme $niper]

So that still doesnt fix the whole not being able to empty the junk mail folder in hotmail issue. The window pops up, but the OK button just does nothing.

[Rix]

So that still doesnt fix the whole not being able to empty the junk mail folder in hotmail issue. The window pops up, but the OK button just does nothing.

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Thats because microsoft need to learn how to code properly :p

You could just select all and choose delete, not really that hard unless u have 500 pages of spam.

[worbd]

So that still doesnt fix the whole not being able to empty the junk mail folder in hotmail issue. The window pops up, but the OK button just does nothing.

The reason this happens is that Hotmail uses server-side browser sniffing, and it fails to send an important JavaScript file to Opera. If you use a proxy and spoof 100% as Firefox, it works fine, because Opera gets the file. But without 100% spoofing, it seems that Hotmail breaks in Opera on purpose.

[Elliott]

The funny thing is still that Opera is smaller, faster and more memory efficient, despite having more features than Firefox. Also, I bet I can surf at least ten times faster with a default Opera installation than you can with a default Firefox installation.

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Never said Firefox was smaller, faster and more memory efficient (except on OS X, it definitely is). I just said it felt leaner and faster to me. All the features in Opera seem to give it a cluttered preferences UI. There are also lots of toolbars you can turn on and off. It's just all this stuff I have to do before it's looking exactly like I want it to and acting exactly like I want it to act. I don't want to start a flame battle with these statements. These are specific to my needs. My needs are probably very different from the needs of most Opera users.

vcv, extra features do make a product bloated when they sacrifice ease of use to put them in. That's how I feel with Opera. I know that may not be how you feel, but it's how I feel.

[vcv]

The result of adding new features to a program or system to the point where the benefit of the new features is outweighed by the extra resources consumed (RAM, disk space or performance) and complexity of use. Software bloat is an instance of Parkinson's Law: resource requirements expand to consume the resources available. Causes of software bloat include second-system effect and creeping featuritis.

Well let's see. Do the benefit of features outweigh the extra resources consumed? Absolutely not.

Opera is still beautifully fast. The interface is no longer cluttered. Resource usage is down a ton in 8.0 beta. I'm failing to see where you could even begin to think there is bloat.

Would you consider mIRC bloated? It has just as many options as Opera, if not more.

Would you consider Windows or Linux or BSD os OSX bloated? After all, look at all those features!!!!!!

Software doesn't always work that way. You can add code without sacrificing speed or resources, if done right.

[ArKeYa]

1. They're both secure.

2. They're both lean.

Fx is a fast clean-cut browser, and can be customized with extensions. Period. Extensions != Fx. So it cannot brag about that. Opera have most functionalities of these extensions built-in, with smaller installer. Some people call it good programming. Some call it bloat. Do the run-around...

I don't like the OOB interface configuration of Opera8b1 but I think that's a small matter, and because there's a good chance it will change in the final release.

3. They're both fast. The difference is negligible and affected by many other external factors.

4. They're both free.

Free means not paying for something you use. Opera just happen to have an ad which most of us abhors. It does not SIGNIFICANTLY lessen it's functionality. Some people are fine with it, some aren't. Do the run-around again.

5. They both provide means for powerful customizations and tweaks.

They're both great browsers! It's just a matter of preference. Dance to whatever music suits you. I'm just glad they're available for my use.:woot: I use both btw, often at the same time. ( Opera8b1 , Fx1.0+ )

I did read a lot of posts by Fx+rabid+fanbois spreading half-truths and half-lies, or maybe just plain un/misinformed. Even Fx's site did so too at one point, which is a big turn-off for me. That doesn't affect the quality of the product though.

JM2C

[Elliott]

Well let's see. Do the benefit of features outweigh the extra resources consumed? Absolutely not.

Opera is still beautifully fast.  The interface is no longer cluttered.  Resource usage is down a ton in 8.0 beta.  I'm failing to see where you could even begin to think there is bloat. 

Would you consider mIRC bloated?  It has just as many options as Opera, if not more.

Would you consider Windows or Linux or BSD os OSX bloated? After all, look at all those features!!!!!!

Software doesn't always work that way.  You can add code without sacrificing speed or resources, if done right.

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You chose to ignore my statement about ease of use, didn't you? Opera's ease of use was, in my mind, sacrificed when they decided to incorporate all those little browser engine quirks and features in the program. I do think mIRC is bloated. The ease of use is sacrificed for some extra features. Same goes with Windows in my mind. Ease of use is sacrificed for, actually, not many features at all. OS X got it right. Ease of use is not sacrificed in the implementation of all those extra features.

[vcv]

You chose to ignore my statement about ease of use, didn't you? Opera's ease of use was, in my mind, sacrificed when they decided to incorporate all those little browser engine quirks and features in the program. I do think mIRC is bloated. The ease of use is sacrificed for some extra features. Same goes with Windows in my mind. Ease of use is sacrificed for, actually, not many features at all. OS X got it right. Ease of use is not sacrificed in the implementation of all those extra features.

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Well I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think the ease of use is affected at all in Opera. And mIRC is probably the easiest irc client to use. And windows.. again. OSX is a little better, but windows is still easy to use.

But your definition of bloat is wrong. Try using another word that actually applies to what you are trying to say, NOT bloat. That gives Opera a bad image based on bad information.

[Elliott]

Well I'm sorry you feel that way.  I don't think the ease of use is affected at all in Opera.  And mIRC is probably the easiest irc client to use.  And windows.. again.  OSX is a little better, but windows is still easy to use.

But your definition of bloat is wrong.  Try using another word that actually applies to what you are trying to say, NOT bloat.  That gives Opera a bad image based on bad information.

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My definition of bloat comes directly from the one you stated.

The result of adding new features to a program or system to the point where the benefit of the new features is outweighed by the extra resources consumed (RAM, disk space or performance) and complexity of use.

[vcv]

Notice the word "and".

[megamanXplosion]

I agree with VCV, bloat is adding features where the complexity outweighs their usefulness and I really can't put my finger on any of Opera's features which fit into that category. All of the features there are to remove tedious activities (notes built-in for easy researching, sessions to avoid typing in multiple addresses at startup, rss to stay updated on news/updates without effort, advanced tabbed browsing for comparing multiple documents at once instead of flicking between tabs constantly, etc) and do not add complexity much, if at all. Anyone with an IQ higher than a fridgerator's temperature can use Opera without much effort.

[Elliott]

I agree with VCV, bloat is adding features where the complexity outweighs their usefulness and I really can't put my finger on any of Opera's features which fit into that category. All of the features there are to remove tedious activities (notes built-in for easy researching, sessions to avoid typing in multiple addresses at startup, rss to stay updated on news/updates without effort, advanced tabbed browsing for comparing multiple documents at once instead of flicking between tabs constantly, etc) and do not add complexity much, if at all. Anyone with an IQ higher than a fridgerator's temperature can use Opera without much effort.

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Unless they by any chance mosey on into the detailed preferences. Then you're bombarded with choices. It's like the first version of Adium. Lots of features, lots of preferences. Confused everybody.

[vcv]

Unless they by any chance mosey on into the detailed preferences. Then you're bombarded with choices. It's like the first version of Adium. Lots of features, lots of preferences. Confused everybody.

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I'm not confused. Maybe your brain can only process so much information at once?

[Michael_C]

I'm not confused.  Maybe your brain can only process so much information at once?

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You shouldn't need to just to change the preferences of your browser. :p

[Chode]

You shouldn't need to just to change the preferences of your browser. :p

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So, in your logic, Firefox out of the box without installing any extensions or customising the layout of any buttons is the way that every browser should be ;)

[ZZOOzzoo]

I'd rather tweak some configurations with Opera than downloading ten or twenty extensions on Firefox and configure them one by one.

Firefox with no extension is just not usable for me, no features at all at very slow speed.

[d_ralphie]

I just said it felt leaner and faster to me.

that's completely irrational, and cannot be justified.

All the features in Opera seem to give it a cluttered preferences UI.

you mean 'flexible'. i never open the preferences dialog anyway. just use f12 and quick preferences.

There are also lots of toolbars you can turn on and off.

uh yeah, and in opera 8 most of them are off by default. what's the problem?

It's just all this stuff I have to do before it's looking exactly like I want it to and acting exactly like I want it to act.

and firefox? do you use it without any extensions what so ever?

vcv, extra features do make a product bloated when they sacrifice ease of use to put them in. That's how I feel with Opera. I know that may not be how you feel, but it's how I feel.

how you 'feel' is irrelevant. you only say that because you think it means that you don't have to justify your anti-opera fud.

opera 8 is streamlined and has a much better ui than firefox. that's not just how i 'feel'. to me, browsing with opera is a lot faster with firefox because of all the built in features. and guess what, some of the best ones, like resuming the session after restart, built in keyboard shortcuts, mouse gestures, etc. don't even add anything to the visible ui!

see? i explained my opinion. it is not just a vague 'feeling'. but you have no arguments against opera, so you rely on those vague 'feelings' which you feel that you don't have to justify, so you spew out lies about opera like there's no tomorrow.

[xxpor]

I'd rather tweak some configurations with Opera than downloading ten or twenty extensions on Firefox and configure them one by one.

Firefox with no extension is just not usable for me, no features at all at very slow speed.

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I dont know how you can say that. I have Fx and Opera on a pII 450mhz and opera is slower than molasus on the north pole. I use Fx with no extentions and i can have 20+ tabs open without it slowing.

[ZZOOzzoo]

I dont know how you can say that. I have Fx and Opera on a pII 450mhz and opera is slower than molasus on the north pole. I use Fx with no extentions and i can have 20+ tabs open without it slowing.

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It's REALTIVELY slow compared to other browsers such as Opera, IE, Maxthon, Avant, and K-Meleon.

And 20+ tabs with no slowing down? Please be honest.

[xxpor]

no real slowing down no, might it take 2-3 sec insted of .5 sec, yes but its not 10 seconds.

[Elliott]

that's completely irrational, and cannot be justified.

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As you seen in this thread, there are reports on some people's systems that Firefox truly is leaner and faster. On my PowerBook, Firefox with two tabs takes up 38.82MB of RAM. Opera, 48.73MB of RAM.

you mean 'flexible'. i never open the preferences dialog anyway. just use f12 and quick preferences.

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That's like Microsoft calling a bug a feature. The preferences are usually the first place any person goes to customize their software. If Opera scares them off immediately with its jumbled up mess of preferences, that's not a good thing. Opera should reorganize them and clean them up. If Adium can do it, so can Opera.

uh yeah, and in opera 8 most of them are off by default. what's the problem?

585336566[/snapback]

Because having them mostly turned off means I need to trek into customizing them to see what I want.

and firefox? do you use it without any extensions what so ever?

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Only extension I sometimes use is Web Developer because it helps me to debug sites. Opera, internally, doesn't have the features the Web Developer toolbar gives to Firefox. I did hear Opera had an plug-in, but that would defeat the purpose of Opera, wouldn't it?

how you 'feel' is irrelevant. you only say that because you think it means that you don't have to justify your anti-opera fud.

opera 8 is streamlined and has a much better ui than firefox. that's not just how i 'feel'. to me, browsing with opera is a lot faster with firefox because of all the built in features. and guess what, some of the best ones, like resuming the session after restart, built in keyboard shortcuts, mouse gestures, etc. don't even add anything to the visible ui!

see? i explained my opinion. it is not just a vague 'feeling'. but you have no arguments against opera, so you rely on those vague 'feelings' which you feel that you don't have to justify, so you spew out lies about opera like there's no tomorrow.

585336566[/snapback]

All browsers are based on feeling. If a browser feels clunky to me, it feels clunky to me. I don't care how "streamlined" it is in your mind. I don't like it.

You might not acknowledge it, but the only reason you chose Opera over the other alternatives is because of your personal taste. Now you think it's the best. Just like I chose OS X for my personal taste. I also think OS X is best now. That happens all the time to people. They want the things the like most to automatically be the best, and everyone has to use the best, don't they?