The MSStyle to WindowBlinds porter manifest.

[msg43]

OFFTOPIC: I have to say I love that wincusotmize frog. I whish there was a big fat wincustmize frog wallpaper without any type of logo or maybe a small one on the bottom

[Frogboy Administrators]

a couple of points i'm tired of mentioning, and won't bother explaining.

1. it's pathetic that Stardock needs to lure MSStyle users in to use their product. that's like Apple's 'Switch' campaign. "there's nothing you can't do on a Mac, that you can do on a PC" and "how can we make the competition look inferior in order for people to use our product?", by saying "i get it! let's steal our competition's userbase and include all their offered features!". (N) plus, you're fighting an invisible enemy. there is no commercial competition for Stardock, you're the only ones charging for something that is offered for free (yea, you and TGTSoft. hooray).

Where do I even start?

WindowBlinds pre-exists msstyles by 3 years. Who is stealing whose user base?

Secondly, Tune-Up Utilities, StarSkin and TGT Soft are 3 (off the top of my head) who charge money for something and what exactly is the value add? They patch 1 byte of memory in uxtheme.dll.

You may not (obviously) like WindowBlinds but your argument is akin to saying that WinZip, which has existed for years, is somehow "pathetic" because they charge money and are doing something that is offered "for free".

The benefits of WindowBlinds are listed here: http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/

2. MSStyle>WB importing should require a license. if the author of an MSStyle skin doesn't want it to be used on WB, his artistic decision should be respected.

That is an interesting argument. However, all legitimate sites I know of require the original author to indeed give their permission in order for their skin to be ported and distributed.

But there is still one problem with msstyles -- EVERY msstyles in existence is a patched version of Microsoft's luna.msstyles file. I don't think anyone has ever gotten Microsoft's license to use their format or distribute derivatives of Luna.msstyles.

And I'm not arguing that they should or need to. I am just saying that your particular argument doesn't really hold water in my opinion.

3. i'm happy with MSStyles: it skins everything i need it to (after all, who needs a skinned command prompt?!), and never fails to do its job (Outpost windows, some prompt windows on Java sites, some dialog boxes, etc. ALL failed to skin with various WB skins in version 4.3.. and by 'fail', i don't mean they missed some lines here and there, but everything had a freakin Win3.x look).. i don't need colorizing, i don't need to import MSStyles, and i definitelly don't need to pay for a more advanced version of uxtheme.

That's fine for you. Stick with MSStyles then. No one is suggesting you switch are they? I'm not.

As for what "never fails" to do its job I point you to exhibit A:

Desktop with msstyles applied:

http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/before.jpg

Apply WB skin:

http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/after.jpg

I agree there are probably some controls out there (Java comes to mind) that WindowBlinds currently doesn't skin. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of thigns msstyles don't currently skin.

and please, don't tell me you still think WB takes up less resources than a patched uxtheme.dll system. that's just silly and misleading.

Amount of memory, GDI, User Handles, and User Objects are all measurable amounts. If item A uses less of these things than item B, it is not "misleading" or "silly" to say one uses less resources than the other.

[#Michael]

a couple of points i'm tired of mentioning, and won't bother explaining.

1. it's pathetic that Stardock needs to lure MSStyle users in to use their product. that's like Apple's 'Switch' campaign. "there's nothing you can't do on a Mac, that you can do on a PC" and "how can we make the competition look inferior in order for people to use our product?", by saying "i get it! let's steal our competition's userbase and include all their offered features!". (N) plus, you're fighting an invisible enemy. there is no commercial competition for Stardock, you're the only ones charging for something that is offered for free (yea, you and TGTSoft. hooray).

2. MSStyle>WB importing should require a license. if the author of an MSStyle skin doesn't want it to be used on WB, his artistic decision should be respected.

3. i'm happy with MSStyles: it skins everything i need it to (after all, who needs a skinned command prompt?!), and never fails to do its job (Outpost windows, some prompt windows on Java sites, some dialog boxes, etc. ALL failed to skin with various WB skins in version 4.3.. and by 'fail', i don't mean they missed some lines here and there, but everything had a freakin Win3.x look).. i don't need colorizing, i don't need to import MSStyles, and i definitelly don't need to pay for a more advanced version of uxtheme.

and please, don't tell me you still think WB takes up less resources than a patched uxtheme.dll system. that's just silly and misleading.

:)

585187788[/snapback]

1. Stardock worked with Microsoft to create the original uxtheme engine for XP in 2001. So they are prefectly within their rights to sell a program that does more and only cost $20.

2. Doesn't need a license becuase Stardock already has aquired the certifed for XP logo from Microsoft which actually is a license.

3. If you like msstyles and thats all, then fine don't use it.

4. It is a documented fact that WB themes uses less memory then the uxtheme engine. But who the hell cares anymore??? Modern machines come standard with anywhere from 512~1 gig of ram....what is 1-2 MB of ram to be used by a skin? That is just silly.

[Ji@nBing]

Try http://www.xpthemes.com.  I think only skins that have a rating of 3 stars or better are displayed there.

But eventually, on WC you will be able to set your threshold on a per library basis of what skins you see.

585187757[/snapback]

:) Thanks, I didn't know about that site.

[Dr.Jones]

the only technical (not artistical, because obviously you had to choose native luna on the "before" pic) difference I see is the command prompt being skinned, as opposed to not being skinned with msstyle only.

edit : and the extra titlebar button on the left side of it

[msg43]

The benefits of WindowBlinds are listed here: http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/

That is an interesting argument.  However, all legitimate sites I know of require the original author to indeed give their permission in order for their skin to be ported and distributed.

As for what "never fails" to do its job I point you to exhibit A:

Desktop with msstyles applied:

http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/before.jpg

Apply WB skin:

http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/wb4/after.jpg

585187841[/snapback]

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program :rolleyes:

and yes I think there should be the authors permission. I would be really ****ed if I made some kinda something and it got ported without me knowing

[KoL Veteran]

I agree there are probably some controls out there (Java comes to mind) that WindowBlinds currently doesn't skin. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of thigns msstyles don't currently skin.

585187841[/snapback]

Hey Brad a question

Are you going to skin those part in the future?? I've seen some part that WB doesn't skin but I dont remember right now which one.

[Frogboy Administrators]

the only technical (not artistical, because obviously you had to choose native luna on the "before" pic) difference I see is the command prompt being skinned, as opposed to not being skinned with msstyle only.

edit : and the extra titlebar button on the left side of it

585187863[/snapback]

Look closer then. Most of the controls (scrollbars, check boxes, radio buttons, push buttons, etc.) are not skinned. They're the default Windows 95 controls.

What some people don't understand is the way XP's skinning works:

When you run an msstyles, besides the theme service running, a process called uxtheme.dll gets attached to your processes and it then intercepts the painting calls a program makes to the OS and IF (and it's a big IF) the program is theme aware, then its controls get skinned otherwise they have the "Windows classic" controls.

There are a handful of things that WindowBlinds won't skin (JAVA consoles for instance). But by and large, it can skin nearly every control there is whether it's theme aware or not.

[#Michael]

the only technical (not artistical, because obviously you had to choose native luna on the "before" pic) difference I see is the command prompt being skinned, as opposed to not being skinned with msstyle only.

edit : and the extra titlebar button on the left side of it

585187863[/snapback]

dialog boxes, logoff/shutdown boxes, toolbars, animation boxes just to name a few.

If WB doesn't float your boat then by all means don't use it.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Hey Brad a question

Are you going to skin those part in the future?? I've seen some part that WB doesn't skin but I dont remember right now which one.

585187880[/snapback]

Not sure. We're keeping an eye to see if JAVA remains popular or not. We'll probably end up looking to see what happens in Longhorn. It is telling that Java windows are fundamentally different than regular windows in the first place (i.e. WindowBlinds doesn't skin JAVA consoles because they don't appear as regular Windows whereas msstyles skins them because Microsoft literally put in a IF JAVA Window THEN Skin It code in).

[Circaflex]

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program  :rolleyes:

and yes I think there should be the authors permission. I would be really ****ed if I made some kinda something and it got ported without me knowing

585187873[/snapback]

youd rather use that ugly luna over that theme? If you didnt know it was wb im pretty sure youd use it. Your just downplaying the whole windowsblinds program, not the theme.

[KoL Veteran]

Not sure.  We're keeping an eye to see if JAVA remains popular or not.  We'll probably end up looking to see what happens in Longhorn.  It is telling that Java windows are fundamentally different than regular windows in the first place (i.e. WindowBlinds doesn't skin JAVA consoles because they don't appear as regular Windows whereas msstyles skins them because Microsoft literally put in a IF JAVA Window THEN Skin It code in).

585187890[/snapback]

ooh cool, thanks for the info ;)

[Dr.Jones]

Look closer then.  Most of the controls (scrollbars, check boxes, radio buttons, push buttons, etc.) are not skinned. They're the default Windows 95 controls.

What some people don't understand is the way XP's skinning works:

When you run an msstyles, besides the theme service running, a process called uxtheme.dll gets attached to your processes and it then intercepts the painting calls a program makes to the OS and IF (and it's a big IF) the program is theme aware, then its controls get skinned otherwise they have the "Windows classic" controls.

There are a handful of things that WindowBlinds won't skin (JAVA consoles for instance).  But by and large, it can skin nearly every control there is whether it's theme aware or not.

585187882[/snapback]

dialog boxes, logoff/shutdown boxes, toolbars, animation boxes just to name a few.

If WB doesn't float your boat then by all means don't use it.

585187884[/snapback]

well duh : try with a whole msstyle with shellstyle. That would be a better comparison and would thin out your list of differences. But my point never was that msstyle is better or equal to the WB engine. If you failed to understand that yet, I quit.

Well I quit anyway, it is past midnight here.. :sleep:

[Ji@nBing]

Here's another "ugly" one :rolleyes:

[Frogboy Administrators]

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program  :rolleyes:

585187873[/snapback]

Ironically, the skin in that screenshot is made by Bant, one of the top msstyes authors.

[Ji@nBing]

Ironically, the skin in that screenshot is made by Bant, one of the top msstyes authors.

585188022[/snapback]

Also ironically, there have been many many requests for that one to be ported to msstyles :whistle:

[Frogboy Administrators]

well duh : try with a whole msstyle with shellstyle. That would be a better comparison and would thin out your list of differences. But my point never was that msstyle is better or equal to the WB engine. If you failed to understand that yet, I quit.

I am not sure we're understanding each other. It's not the skin that determines what gets skinned. Picking some wonderful looking msstyle wouldn't have changed the fact that most of the controls in that screenshot would look like Windows 95.

Just as you don't like bevels, many WindowBlinds users find it very jarring to suddenly see a bunch of Windows 95 controls. It's very unpolished.

I would run Luna via WindowBlinds rather than the default Luna simply for no other reason than I don't like loading programs that partially look like they're from 1995.

Or consider this: In Windows XP, the progress animations (copy, move, etc.) are the same animations from the Chicago beta of 1994. If you run WindowBlinds, you can easily change that.

What I'm trying to get at is that different people have different issues that they want addressed. When I am running an OS in 2004, I don't want to have pieces of it that look 10 years old. I want the WHOLE thing to look consistently new. Not certain pieces.

And soon we'll have Longhorn and it'll all start over again.

[memNOC]

wb ugly. I would chose luna anyday over that windowblind skin. Your just dissing your self froggy boy. And if you and stardock need to do all this to lure people to use windowblinds maybe its not a very good program  :rolleyes:

and yes I think there should be the authors permission. I would be really ****ed if I made some kinda something and it got ported without me knowing

585187873[/snapback]

:blink: umm dude... that's Bant's Ciela. one of the handful of skins actually worth installing WB for.

WindowBlinds doesn't skin JAVA consoles because they don't appear as regular Windows whereas msstyles skins them because Microsoft literally put in a IF JAVA Window THEN Skin It code in).

am i missing something here?

first of all, if it's true the WB engine is the succesor of MSStyle, shouldn't all those features already be supported? if not, did you take them out on purpose? if so, why?

and -- if you could -- other than the command prompt (and Win3.x programs), show me another instance where uxtheme.dll fails to skin? the point i'm trying to make, is when uxtheme fails to skin an application, it applies the Windows size/color/etc and basically makes it look like a 3DCC window that follows the same pattern. with WB, the part that didn't skin looks like it came from Win3.x. and i wouldn't know if it's been fixed in 4.4 (you'll obviously tell me it has), but in the last version i encountered these glitches way too often around Windows.

[Frogboy Administrators]

and -- if you could -- other than the command prompt (and Win3.x programs), show me another instance where uxtheme.dll fails to skin? the point i'm trying to make, is when uxtheme fails to skin an application, it applies the Windows size/color/etc and basically makes it look like a 3DCC window that follows the same pattern. with WB, the part that didn't skin looks like it came from Win3.x. and i wouldn't know if it's been fixed in 4.4 (you'll obviously tell me it has), but in the last version i encountered these glitches way too often around Windows.

585188086[/snapback]

I provided a screenshot showing plenty of Windows XP programs that aren't skinned via uxtheme.

Adobe Acrobat reader not high profile enough?

Non-theme aware programs look like Windows 95. They're "classic". I.e. unskinned. I'm really surprised you haven't noticed this, this isn't a rare occurence. Many good programs are fully theme aware. But many others are not.

I'm not sure what you mean by 3DCC? You saw the Luna screenshot, those aren't obscure programs. They are only partially skinned by msstyles. With WindowBlinds, they're fully skinned.

[gnubugx]

Actually, I would never port my themes over to windowblinds, stardock is a joke and I would never do anything that might help them screw over people or waste people's hard earned money. This comes from years of bull**** stardock has done thru the years, and it's never gonna happen. First of all the bull**** they speak is just that, bull****. Windowblinds is not faster then the windows theme system (talk bull**** all you want, but guess what, Microsoft created the theme system and NO COMPANY is going to implement the skinning faster then the very company whom has coded the theme system in the OS. The patch stardock keeps refering to is a signature patch, it allows a non microsoft signed theme to be applied. Nothing more.) By the way stardock, it would be nice to tell everyone that WindowBlinds REMOVES the windows theming system and applies the classic win9x to entire system, then loads the windowblinds bloatware to even begin to apply the theme to the classic win9x windows. Thats cutting edge there, remove the theme system, fire up a bloated memory application, then apply the theme throughout the system, slow your system down just tad, have all theme ****ups show up as win9x looking garbage, and your all set...Wow impressive you ######...

Disclaimer: I hate stardock because they whine and bitch and moan and throw F.U.D around like no other company. I mean these people got all mad and bitched and started bull**** ona company whom never said anything bad towards them, hell they didnt even know or care who you were. Stardock was mad and crying because they got more press coverage when they decided to move Konfabulator over to windows because they got pushed out by Apple. They even put hateful and F.U.D on thier website because they were mad that the press was reporting Konfabulator for windows and got way more coverage then their serveral year old product did when it came out.

There was also the amazing time when StyleXP came out and they got all mad and ****ed because people were buying it instead of windowblinds. They got mad because here they had a product that was a big bloated piece of crap (at the time, windowblinds was horrible piece of junk that at any given moment would screw your system up to the point of reloading (trust me on this one, I know maybe 50 people whom had to reload during this time period. Not once also, when windowsblinds would crap out, boy did it crap out!!) And the reason they got mad? because StyleXP did it using the MS theming engine. Load the patch toallow the non microsoft theme to be applied, and your done. They went everywhere they could talking $hit, Skinz.org, deskmod, deviantart, everywhere, spouting bull and cry like little babies. The bottom line is stardock ony cares about the mighty $$$. Pay your money and then move back to the end of the line so they can **** on you and laugh about it. Lose your registration Key? Well, your almost done for, because they will just tell you to purchase again, get screwed over by the purchasing when the rules on upgrades where good and sane? well, your outta luck. They can change the rules at anytime, no matter what was said when you purchased, you will have to purchase again.

My whole point is, I would never port a damn thing over to windowblinds, I would never help your company and I am gladly waiting for longhorn to dwindle your company down and smile as you lose $$$.

Screw you Stardock and hope you all die a miserable deaths...

[Frogboy Administrators]

Such eloquence.

Pity there is almost nothing true about what gnu just wrote.

(Moderator Hat On)

BTW, hate speech and personal attacks are not acceptable behavior on Neowin.net. Consider yourself warned.

(Moderator Hat Off)

[Crayon]

Actually, I would never port my themes over to windowblinds, stardock is a joke and I would never do anything that might help them screw over people or waste people's hard earned money. This comes from years of bull**** stardock has done thru the years, and it's never gonna happen. First of all the bull**** they speak is just that, bull****. Windowblinds is not faster then the windows theme system (talk bull**** all you want, but guess what, Microsoft created the theme system and NO COMPANY is going to implement the skinning faster then the very company whom has coded the theme system in the OS. The patch stardock keeps refering to is a signature patch, it allows a non microsoft signed theme to be applied. Nothing more.) By the way stardock, it would  be nice to tell everyone that WindowBlinds REMOVES the windows theming system and applies the classic win9x to entire system, then loads the windowblinds bloatware to even begin to apply the theme to the classic win9x windows. Thats cutting edge there, remove the theme system, fire up a bloated memory application, then apply the theme throughout the system, slow your system down just tad, have all theme ****ups show up as win9x looking garbage, and your all set...Wow impressive you ######...

Disclaimer: I hate stardock because they whine and bitch and moan and throw F.U.D around like no other company. I mean these people got all mad and bitched and started bull**** ona company whom never said anything bad towards them, hell they didnt even know or care who you were. Stardock was mad and crying because they got more press coverage when they decided to move Konfabulator over to windows because they got pushed out by Apple. They even put hateful and F.U.D on thier website because they were mad that the press was reporting Konfabulator for windows and got way more coverage then their serveral year old product did when it came out.

There was also the amazing time when StyleXP came out and they got all mad and ****ed because people were buying it instead of windowblinds. They got mad because here they had a product that was a big bloated piece of crap (at the time, windowblinds was horrible piece of junk that at any given moment would screw your system up to the point of reloading (trust me on this one, I know maybe 50 people whom had to reload during this time period. Not once also, when windowsblinds would  crap out, boy did it crap out!!) And the reason they got mad? because StyleXP did it using the MS theming engine. Load the patch toallow the non microsoft theme to be applied, and your done. They went everywhere they could talking $hit, Skinz.org, deskmod, deviantart, everywhere, spouting bull and cry like little babies. The bottom line is stardock ony cares about the mighty $$$. Pay your money and then move back to the end of the line so they can **** on you and laugh about it. Lose your registration Key? Well, your almost done for, because they will just tell you to purchase again, get screwed over by the purchasing when the rules on upgrades where good and sane? well, your outta luck. They can change the rules at anytime, no  matter what was said when you purchased, you will have to purchase again.

My whole point is, I would never port a damn thing over to windowblinds, I would never help your company and I am gladly waiting for longhorn to dwindle your company down and smile as you lose $$$.

Screw you Stardock and hope you all die a miserable deaths...

585188338[/snapback]

wow, was about to try and point out each retarded remark in this post until i keep getting lost in every sentence because i am losing track of which retarded point i am on. how is it possible to be this ignorant? :laugh:

but i must ask, what do you possibly have that you would think people would want to be ported to WB?

[futb0l]

Actually, I would never port my themes over to windowblinds, stardock is a joke and I would never do anything that might help them screw over people or waste people's hard earned money. This comes from years of bull**** stardock has done thru the years, and it's never gonna happen. First of all the bull**** they speak is just that, bull****. Windowblinds is not faster then the windows theme system (talk bull**** all you want, but guess what, Microsoft created the theme system and NO COMPANY is going to implement the skinning faster then the very company whom has coded the theme system in the OS. The patch stardock keeps refering to is a signature patch, it allows a non microsoft signed theme to be applied. Nothing more.) By the way stardock, it would  be nice to tell everyone that WindowBlinds REMOVES the windows theming system and applies the classic win9x to entire system, then loads the windowblinds bloatware to even begin to apply the theme to the classic win9x windows. Thats cutting edge there, remove the theme system, fire up a bloated memory application, then apply the theme throughout the system, slow your system down just tad, have all theme ****ups show up as win9x looking garbage, and your all set...Wow impressive you ######...

Disclaimer: I hate stardock because they whine and bitch and moan and throw F.U.D around like no other company. I mean these people got all mad and bitched and started bull**** ona company whom never said anything bad towards them, hell they didnt even know or care who you were. Stardock was mad and crying because they got more press coverage when they decided to move Konfabulator over to windows because they got pushed out by Apple. They even put hateful and F.U.D on thier website because they were mad that the press was reporting Konfabulator for windows and got way more coverage then their serveral year old product did when it came out.

There was also the amazing time when StyleXP came out and they got all mad and ****ed because people were buying it instead of windowblinds. They got mad because here they had a product that was a big bloated piece of crap (at the time, windowblinds was horrible piece of junk that at any given moment would screw your system up to the point of reloading (trust me on this one, I know maybe 50 people whom had to reload during this time period. Not once also, when windowsblinds would  crap out, boy did it crap out!!) And the reason they got mad? because StyleXP did it using the MS theming engine. Load the patch toallow the non microsoft theme to be applied, and your done. They went everywhere they could talking $hit, Skinz.org, deskmod, deviantart, everywhere, spouting bull and cry like little babies. The bottom line is stardock ony cares about the mighty $$$. Pay your money and then move back to the end of the line so they can **** on you and laugh about it. Lose your registration Key? Well, your almost done for, because they will just tell you to purchase again, get screwed over by the purchasing when the rules on upgrades where good and sane? well, your outta luck. They can change the rules at anytime, no  matter what was said when you purchased, you will have to purchase again.

My whole point is, I would never port a damn thing over to windowblinds, I would never help your company and I am gladly waiting for longhorn to dwindle your company down and smile as you lose $$$.

Screw you Stardock and hope you all die a miserable deaths...

585188338[/snapback]

Man, if you don't like Stardock then that's fine - no need to curse them. I've never tried Stardock in a computer with a good VGA card before, in my old PC - windowblinds did slow down the PC by just a little bit, a lot of themes in WB suck IMO, and Neowin is more of a .msstyle community - which is why I use .msstyle.

Anyways, hopefully when the .msstyle is ported to wb, it will be faster, even if it's a little bit faster.

[ciaran00]

Christ these threads never let up.

KoL... don't let anyone tell you you're not great. Your themes rock, man.

I had a question for WB users. How can one skin the classic logon with WB? With themes turned off and WB installed, the logon skin looks like classic!

ciaran

[nkj]

Both Window Blinds and msstyles are good. choosing which one to use is upto the user. Window Blinds definetly skins more parts of windows and it does give themers more room creativity. This however does not mean that the skin is gonna be highly usable. for eg some of the new themes for window blinds have the caption buttons at the bottom of window . this might look nice and different but is surely gonna take some getting used to. As to which program takes less memory . WHO CARES . As long as the difference does not hamper you from using your other programs .

Window Blinds is gr8 product i have used it back in 2000 and i liked it. As for Stardock as a company its pretty good and there products are quite nice . IconPackager is the best one of the lot , thats my personal opinion and you are free to think differently .

(Frogboy anythign new with next version of Iconpackager?)

When i swithched to XP i started using visual styles and the only reason being Kol's themes were only available for visual style format. (SS Studio for example).

As for window blinds themes being bloated , thats not the case all the time an example being vector cell by b0se . I would like to see Stardock have some wb skins made by some of the gr8 msstlyle skinners like Kol, b0se and Bant (If i missed someone i m really sorry).

I like the idea MSStyle to WB porter thingy but it would be great if there was something similar to convert WB themes to MSStyles cause there are definetly some Wb themes i would like to try escpecially vector cell (Please Please b0se port it to MSStyle) .

Rant : The thing i do hate (u might like it and you have full right to do so) the most abt wb themes is that they skin the toolbar buttons and the file menu in explorer and have them raised which really looks cluttered. And why don't WB authors have cleartype on while taking screenshots of themes .

BTW i am a msstyle user (currently have Kol's Sustenance theme applied its amazing) and like it . My freind use WindowBlinds and he likes it . Its a matter of choice and personal taste.

U might disagree with what i said above and feel free to do so.