The MSStyle to WindowBlinds porter manifest.

[KoL Veteran]

Darrian: what type of computer are you running that you experence these glitches?  I run a athlon XP at 2 ghz with 64 mb geforce 4 and it works great.

Try the newest versions of WB 4.4 and give skins like dogmax a try, they will blow your mind away at how complex yet professional and minimal they are.

You want to now why the skins you use are all msstyles because they are all the same.  They are all basic mods of luna/panther/longhorn.  Nobody has any creativty left in them anymore and nobody can create anything radical anymore.  Take a look at any recently released msstyle on this board and you will see a mod of luna or longhorn.

KoL's newest theme is a perfect example.  While it is a great theme with graphics that are handcrafted, it has the fisher price look of luna.  A true lack of originality.  And yet look at the thread in the WB forum of the unorthodox skins.  Those show what true skinning can achieve.  Something radical, something original.  It may not be something you use day in and day out, but it is different and that is what counts.  It is also something that cannot be done with msstyles.

You talk about how you don't like how windowblinds handles itself when it comes to unloading the themes and uninstalling, etc....  Well, I hate to say it but no program is perfect but this one is definately improving.  Even Microsoft isn't perfect, that's why they stopped with only 3 variations on the themes.

I have done a lot of recoloring of skins using skinstudio and I haven't expeienced this slowdown you have talked about, can you explain it more??

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Why is not original for you because it have similar Luna colors?? Sustenance is not another Luna mod, the theme is based on an idea that FOOOD posted on gfxOasis and I did everything to create a theme based on that idea. If you find one luna image in the theme let me know. I dont even work over Luna, I used my tiger port as a base for Sustenance.

That is something that I dont like, people saying that ALL msstyle are Luna mods or Longhorn themes. Search a little and you'll find a lot of original themes.

[Pink Floyd Veteran]

personally, if e can import 100% our VS to WB w/o any or almost any problems, I dont mind to pay IF there is more stuff to theme

within the windows gui

[KoL Veteran]

personally, if e can import 100% our VS to WB w/o any or almost any problems, I dont mind to pay IF there is more stuff to theme

within the windows gui

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The last time that I tried to import a theme was on July and it work great. Just worked with some graphics and the theme was done. Im going to try with Sustenance :D

[#Michael]

Why is not original for you because it have similar Luna colors?? Sustenance is not another Luna mod, the theme is based on an idea that FOOOD posted on gfxOasis and I did everything to create a theme based on that idea. If you find one luna image in the theme let me know. I dont even work over Luna, I used my tiger port as a base for Sustenance.

That is something that I dont like, people saying that ALL msstyle are Luna mods or Longhorn themes. Search a little and you'll find a lot of original themes.

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Don't get me wrong. I know you worked long and hard at this theme and should be proud of it. And you have every right o be proud of it, it looks great. But just indulge me and do a comparison:

Your new theme:

Original Luna:

DogmaX WB:

What my desktop looks like with Sustenance applied via WB:

You can't tell me that your new theme doesn't look a bit like luna? The color schemes, start button, shell style, even the red close button. That's all I am saying, msstyles lack creativity and originality because of their limitations. But when those limitations are lifted, DogmaX is a perfect example of what can be accomplished.

Edited December 29, 2004 by AthleticTrainer1981

[evo0o]

Atheletic. From what I can see from the DogmaX screenshot, everything on it can be themed thru a change of .dll and .msstyles.

The only plus point WB has is that it takes less time. However, for this time you make up with money (pay for Stardock's programs).

I'll stay with the free alternative :)

[#Michael]

Atheletic. From what I can see from the DogmaX screenshot, everything on it can be themed thru a change of .dll and .msstyles.

The only plus point WB has is that it takes less time. However, for this time you make up with money (pay for Stardock's programs).

I'll stay with the free alternative :)

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The screenshot is not even part of it. You have to download it to experience it. Animated menus, the dialog boxes are excellent.

[RightyFX]

only programs i like that stardock offers are, objectdock PLUS just because of those little tabs :cool: & cursor XP... the rest arent even worth buying when you can get a free alternative :p

but i forgive stardock

[KoL Veteran]

Don't get me wrong.  I know you worked long and hard at this theme and should be proud of it.  And you have every right o be proud of it, it looks great.  But just indulge me and do a comparison:

Your new theme:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/athl..._VS_by__kol.jpg

Original Luna:

http://skins3.wincustomize.com/CodeByte/wb/XPLuna.gif

DogmaX WB:

http://skins3.wincustomize.com/brewman/wb/DogmaX_v2a.jpg

What my desktop looks like with Sustenance applied via WB:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/athl...ner1981/sus.jpg

You can't tell me that your new theme doesn't look a bit like luna?  The color schemes, start button, shell style, even the red close button.  That's all I am saying, msstyles lack creativity and originality because of their limitations.  But when those limitations are lifted, DogmaX is a perfect example of what can be accomplished.

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The colors yes, the start button and close button??? the shellstye??? :blink:

I dont know what theme are you looking at but to me they are a lot different. As I said before, the only thing that the theme have similar to Luna are the colors because I wanted to do the theme that way. I like Luna colors.

[#Michael]

By the way sustenance ported over great using skinstudio. Looks like not one problem.

[#Michael]

only programs i like that stardock offers are, objectdock PLUS just because of those little tabs  :cool:  & cursor XP... the rest arent even worth buying when you can get a free alternative :p

but i forgive stardock

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And your reasoning for that is why?

This thread is getting entirely out of hand. It was supposed to be about the benefits of porting over msstyles to WB and then taking your skins to the next step. I'm guessing that's not what people want.

[evo0o]

His reason is same as all the others such as myself don't use stardock's programs... you have to pay to use a program that can be emulated for free.

[#Michael]

His reason is same as all the others such as myself don't use stardock's programs... you have to pay to use a program that can be emulated for free.

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except you get a hell of a lot more abilities with WB.

That's like saying I shouldn't have to buy Microsoft Word because they bundle wordpad with XP. Yes wordpad does the basics and will do wordprocessing, but when I want the more advanced features I have to go out and buy the program.

So I could be content with the basic skinning engine and its limitations or I could be someone who wants the more advanced features and I did buy the program.

Edited December 29, 2004 by AthleticTrainer1981

[Ji@nBing]

His reason is same as all the others such as myself don't use stardock's programs... you have to pay to use a program that can be emulated for free.

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There is a free version.

AthleticTrainer1981: I don't see how you can compare Kol's new theme to luna. The only thing the same is the colors. If he had only released the white substyle, no one would even think of luna.

I'm looking forward to the next version of skin studio. I've tried with 4.4 to port some things, and it always needs a bit of tweaking (which I don't know how to do :p ).

[evo0o]

List some of this abilities that can't be emulated with system mods by the use of resource hacker or programs as such.

[Ji@nBing]

List some of this abilities that can't be emulated with system mods by the use of resource hacker or programs as such.

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Of course it can all be done with system mods and hacks, but that's the point. You don't have to hack anything with WB. It's all done beautifully with one little app. And it's easy to revert your system back to it's original state. All you do is unload WB

[evo0o]

except you get a hell of a lot more abilities with WB.

That's like saying I shouldn't have to buy Microsoft Word because they bundle wordpad with XP.  Yes wordpad does the basics and will do wordprocessing, but when I want the more advanced features I have to go out and buy the program.

So I could be content with the basic skinning engine and its limitations or I could be someone who wants the more advanced features and I did buy the program.

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What 'advanced features' are you talking about?

A little time + system hacks = Free alternative.

[#Michael]

List some of this abilities that can't be emulated with system mods by the use of resource hacker or programs as such.

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One of the most underused features of WB:Enhanced GUI controls: WindowBlinds supports third party extensions to the title bar and borders. For example, users can add roll-up buttons, always on top buttons, MP3 controls, etc. to the title bar as part of their visual style.

http://www.stardock.com/products/windowbli...wb4/#Advantages

[evo0o]

As you stated, it is underused. And I'm sure there are free alternatives for those.

[Ji@nBing]

As you stated, it is underused. And I'm sure there are free alternatives for those.

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As I've said before, WB is free. There is a free version of WB. Another feature I've seen in recent skins is a transparency button built in. That's pretty cool and you don't have to run another app to do it.

[#Michael]

As you stated, it is underused. And I'm sure there are free alternatives for those.

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Actually there aren't. Stardock is also the only company to receieve the designed for XP logo by Microsoft for customizing windows. Stardock worked with MS to develop the original uxtheme engine.

[klyde]

Actually there aren't.  Stardock is also the only company to receieve the designed for XP logo by Microsoft for customizing windows.  Stardock worked with MS to develop the original uxtheme engine.

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Actually you're wrong. Rollup buttons and always on top controls have been in Nvidia's nView application for months now. Not to mention there is also FreeShade which had been around for years that gives windows rollup functions without using all kinds of extra buttons in the GUI.

[Frogboy Administrators]

(Moderator Hat On)

Just want to say how proud I am that this discussion is so constructive and so intelligent.

I am sure I can speak for many other long time Neowiners when I say that these kinds of in depth technical debates were more of a pipe dream a couple years ago.

This kind of discussion is precisely the reason why I think Neowin will eventually be one of the defacto tech web sites on the net (which it's been moving towards for a long time)

(Moderator Hat Off)

Regarding Darian's experiences:

What I'm specifically referring to is flickering of WB elements for no apparent reason, objects not being refreshed after initially drawn (say when moving a window or something, where the "skin" should be there is just a white blankness that takes a moment or so to redraw where a msstyles skin would remain constant

Actually no I really don't know what you're talking about. I've never seen this bug nor heard of it before. I will take your word that you're running into this but I've never had a problem like that with either msstyles or WindowBlinds and I've had WB running on some pretty poor configurations during testing.

at I have not seen consistantly for quite some time, but it does still occur occasionally under some circumstances), and as far as games go, well, specifically I see that bug consistantly on any game based on the Quake III engine

Odd. As a Counterstrike junkie, I can tell you that when I have run CS in a window that I have no such issue. Again, it's skinned. In fact, WindowBlinds can even skin CMD.exe which msstyles can't.

The biggest reason I don't use WB is because it doesn't have many skins I like, and the skins that I use regularly are msstyles.

And this is a very legitimate reason. I agree with you. The fact of the matter is, you can patch uxtheme.dll for free and if msstyles are what you want to run then it's hard to argue that someone should go out and pay for WindowBlinds.

This is precisely why most WindowBlinds skins are more "complex" than msstyles however. The demographic of people who buy WindowBlinds are people who want more than msstyles can provide. If all they wanted were fairly simple skins and nothing more they wouldn't have bought WindowBlinds in the first place since they could get that for free. Right?

That said, WindowBlinds native skins bring a few key things to the table:

1) WindowBlinds 4.4 IS faster than msstyles. I've yet to see anyone, even WB detractors, who have used WB 4.4 claim otherwise.

2) WindowBlinds can change the color of skins on the fly.

3) WindowBlinds skins a LOT more elements of Windows. Load up, for instance, Adobe Acrobat reader with an msstyle then load up that msstyle via WindowBlinds (converted) and then load up Acrobat. It's night and day. Acrobat looks like a Win95 app almost with msstyles because msot of it isn't skinned but with WindowBlinds it looks truly native. That is the case with many apps.

4) WindowBlinds can assign other commands to the right mouse button. On my computer, I have the right mouse button click on the title bar minimize it. That's a big deal for me. If WindowBlinds didn't even skin I would consider this a must-have program just for that.

5) The WindowBlinds version of the skin will not just work on Windows XP but also on Windows 2000, Windows 98, Windows ME, and in all likelyhood Longhorn. MSStyles, the format we are talking about today, will only exist on XP. We've got the Longhorn alphas and today's .msstyles won't work no matter what you patch.

Re Recoloring:

No, recoloring doesn't affect performance at all. It's recolored only once in memory and stored that way.

Re One last point about "quality" of skins. Let us remember that it's not a fair comparsion to pick the top skins from Kol or b0se that get posted here on Neowin with the typical skin on WinCustomize.com. If you want to do apples and apples, compare the skins on WinCustomize to the skins on ThemeXP.org. The typical msstyle is pretty horrific. And I don't care for most WindowBlinds skins either.

In a given GOOD year of skinning, there are probably about three dozen GOOD skins created. The best skins get mentioned here on Neowin. That is, after all, one of the points of coming to Neowin.net in the first place.

Cheers!

[Dr.Jones]

you're almost saying that we're dumb using this free alternative, because WB does so much more !

Why would we need more ?

msstyle skins the windows. the job gets done. And then you can mod dll and stuff or buy WB (or use the free version), but in my case, once the windows are skinned, with whatever restrictions you might think are bad (like not being able to put bloat on my titlebar), and the icons are changed, this might be as much as I want to customize my interface. Anything more IMHO is superfluous, and you might fail to understand that fact. Many people might have the same taste as I do, and if you can all comprehend that, maybe you will understand why those who don't support WB exists in the first place, even if you have a great product.

msstyle = skin windows, free

windowblinds = skin windows, and then some, $$$

It is still a question of choice. I just hope that in the end your porter won't kill the msstyle "free of charge" community by getting everyone to use WB, and then grab them by the balls, er I mean wallet.

PS: I tried to be much respectful to everyone, this is not trolling or a random flame

EDIT : I noticed that msstyle ports can be used with WIN200 and 9x. THAT is a great reason to do it. Otherwise, I still stand by what I said

[#Michael]

Actually you're wrong.  Rollup buttons and always on top controls have been in Nvidia's nView application for months now.  Not to mention there is also FreeShade which had been around for years that gives windows rollup functions without using all kinds of extra buttons in the GUI.

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Did not know about nview since I don't use it but freeshade hasn't been update since 2001 so I have no idea how well it would work with any modern programs.

[Dr.Jones]

Did not know about nview since I don't use it but freeshade hasn't been update since 2001 so I have no idea how well it would work with any modern programs.

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microsoft did not change the Windows drawing and "window handling" code that much since after XP came out. Anything compiled with win32 should behave the same, unless you develop UI in your app in a dodgy way like adobe always does