DMCA regulations

[Meshuggah]

Of course the legality of downloading material you hold a license for is open for interpretation.?Nowhere> in the DMCA does it specifically state or suggest that one is violating the terms of the act by downloading a movie (iso) that one already owns on DVD.? Perhaps you should google DMCA and read it.? If it's not written in the act, not you nor anyone frFat City/i> can tell me otherwise.

Once again, when one purchases a movie from the local store, one is purchasing a license view/i>[/b]/b> the materiand/i> the disc the material is pressed on.? In other words, at the point of purchase (time of transaction), one has a license to view the movie.? Ufair usee, one is entitled to make backup copies of the movie whether it be on a hdd (iso) or a dvd (read DVD CCA Surrenders in Burner DVD Descrambling Case).? That being said, one (downloadenotot in violation of any copyright laws by downloading a movie he/she already owns on dvd.

It is absurd that some of you are suggesting then that this is no different than purchasing music online via itunes and then walking into a shop and pocketing that same CD.? When purclicensesses to listen to music via itunes, ynotnot purchasing an accompanying CD, case, or cover art.? What makes you think, then, that you can take the CD when clearly you never paid for any physical component of the 'CD' at all... jlicenseense (read: rights) to listen to it.? What would happen if your ipod broke and you had to replace your unit?? You wouldn't have to pay for all those songs again... you'd be allowed to download them bealready paid for a license to listen to that music music.

Likewise, since you mentioned Steam and HL2, I should also mention that those who purchased the rcancanentitledtitled to download the game via Steam as well... and obviously no one is asserting that those who purchased online via steam have the right to walk into Wal-Mart and snatch a copy of the game... that would be absurd.

Your attempts to squash my point by assertiit's not up for interpretationtation", are in vein.? I have a firm grasp of my rights as a consumer, license holder, and Canadian citizen.? Better luck trying to manipulate the next trick.

586272723[/snapback]

Yes, as a canadian citizen, my whole point exactly. You don't live in America where tons of people are constantly being sued. You think that living a few thousand miles north than us entitles you to download as much as you and proclaim your 'freedom' to download **** you will never buy. Just wait a f:D months. :D

You can say you own your "liscence" for viewing movies all you want, but THIS MOVIE, you cannot. It's not in stores, there's no way of owning it right now. My point is, I don't think really anyone in neowin doesn't have pirated material in some fashion on their computer, however neowin wasn't made to talk about all the latest dvds/cds leaking online so kids can proclaim they have it. Rules are rules, and like I said before, if you want to download it, fine man, I really don't care what you do in your own home. But if you'reobeying>obeying laws and rules, why don't you obey a simple forum rule? Don't talk about warez....jesus, that's all I ask...

Everyday It seems I have to fight this place about warez. I'm sick of it. This place really wasn't like this until bittorrent flooded everything and then EVERYONE had access to things they never could get before. I'm sick of seeing it on this board. Do you understand that?

Stop being a ****ing prick and obey the rules. I don't give a **** if you think living in Canada or Sweeden or anything other place that doesn't have firm laws on this stuff.

Edited July 26, 2005 by Meshuggah

[Tim Dorr Veteran]

Once again, when one purchases a movie from the local store, one is purchasing a license to view the material and the disc the material is pressed on.  In other words, at the point of purchase (time of transaction), one has a license to view the movie.  Under fair use, one is entitled to make backup copies of the movie whether it be on a hdd (iso) or a dvd (read DVD CCA Surrenders in Burner DVD Descrambling Case).  That being said, one (downloader) is not in violation of any copyright laws by downloading a movie he/she already owns on dvd.

Again, you have a very warped view of how this works. You're allowed to make a backup copy of your copy of the material. Your license doesn't give you right to view the material in every form in every case. As a result, it also doesn't give you the right to obtain your backup from another user's copy (which is what you do when downloading).

It is absurd that some of you are suggesting then that this is no different than purchasing music online via itunes and then walking into a shop and pocketing that same CD.  When purchasing licenses to listen to music via itunes, you are not purchasing an accompanying CD, case, or cover art.  What makes you think, then, that you can take the CD when clearly you never paid for any physical component of the 'CD' at all... just the license (read: rights) to listen to it.  What would happen if your ipod broke and you had to replace your unit?  You wouldn't have to pay for all those songs again... you'd be allowed to download them because you already paid for a license to listen to that music.

Actually, no. If you delete a song you purchased on iTunes, that song is gone forever. You have to re-purchase it if you want another copy. If you break your favorite CD, you can't go to the store and get another copy. Same idea, just different a medium.

You also have the ability to burn those tracks to disk for backup reasons. However, you don't have the right or ability to download them from the internet. The license you have is for the Apple-provided versions of those tracks, not for one you obtain over a filesharing network.

Likewise, since you mentioned Steam and HL2, I should also mention that those who purchased the retail box can and are entitled to download the game via Steam as well... and obviously no one is asserting that those who purchased online via steam have the right to walk into Wal-Mart and snatch a copy of the game... that would be absurd.

Actually, any copy of Half Life 2 you buy in store is actually just a disk copy of the game files, minus the executable to run them. You need to connect to the internet to play the game. So, by buying it in stores, you're paying for distrobution via CD, versus the internet. You get a license to play the game on your machine, but can also download and play it on others under the same license, as they distribute the files at no cost over the internet.

[Crimson Behelit]

You can say you own your "liscence" for viewing movies all you want, but THIS MOVIE, you cannot. It's not in stores, there's no way of owning it right now. My point is, I don't think really anyone in neowin doesn't have pirated material in some fashion on their computer, however neowin wasn't made to talk about all the latest dvds/cds leaking online so kids can proclaim they have it. Rules are rules, and like I said before, if you want to download it, fine man, I really don't care what you do in your own home. But if you're so keen on obeying laws and rules, why don't you obey a simple forum rule? Don't talk about warez....jesus, that's all I ask...

I'm not talking about warez, hypocrite. Let's try and stay on topic.

Yes, as a canadian citizen, my whole point exactly. You don't live in America where tons of people are constantly being sued. You think that living a few thousand miles north than us entitles you to download as much as you and proclaim your 'freedom' to download **** you will never buy. Just wait a few months.

bittorrent flooded everything and then EVERYONE had access to things they never could get before. I'm sick of seeing it on this board. Do you understand that?

Stop being a ****ing prick and obey the rules. I don't give a **** if you think living in Canada or Sweeden or anything other place that doesn't have firm laws on this stuff.

You're right. I don't live in America ( :rolleyes: ). Of course I'm going to obey the laws of the country I'm from and not yours. What's your point? Are you trying to assert I have to obey your laws too? Your egocentric approach (both as an individual and as a nation) to this discussion is blatantly obvious. You follow the rules in your country, and I'll follow the rules in mine. Neowin is a site with visitors from all countries around the world... not only the United States. You don't want to hear about other country's policies? To effing bad. Get used to it. I have every right to discuss topical issues and how they relate to Canada's policies.

Actually, no. If you delete a song you purchased on iTunes, that song is gone forever. You have to re-purchase it if you want another copy. If you break your favorite CD, you can't go to the store and get another copy. Same idea, just different a medium.

It appears that I am in error regarding the itunes policy. I'll have to forfeight my itunes argument on this matter. I still stand by my interpretation of the DMCA, however.

Again, you have a very warped view of how this works. You're allowed to make a backup copy of your copy of the material. Your license doesn't give you right to view the material in every form in every case. As a result, it also doesn't give you the right to obtain your backup from another user's copy (which is what you do when downloading).

Supply a link to the official document which explicitly states the above (bolded) is true... I won't hold my breath.

[lexor]

so someone tell me again how is dl'ing DVD off of the web when you have it (the store bought DVD) any different from downloading a game when you already have it and just lost a CD?

EBGames reps told me I can download the game if I still have my cd-key and I don't need to buy another copy. Besides when you download a game it still has Licence agreement in it, when you dowload movie it usually has licence stuff stripped, so you don't agree to anything (when you buy DVD you agree with terms of service on the back, when you watch DVD you agree with that licence about not copying it contains even if you manage to skip it somehow). When you dl a DVD rip you don't agree to anything, since it doesn't ask for anything and it contains no licence.

[Meshuggah]

Personally, i think cd's should be $4.99-$6.99 and dvd's should be $9.99, but that will never happen. Point is, if you want to be entertained, you better not expect it to be free. And this goes for every job out there.

A teacher doesn't teach for free, an alcoholic doesn't drink for a free, an insurance company doesn't insure someone for free. so why should an entertainer entertain people for free?

Music and any form of entertainment is a scapegoat. Most people listen to music to get something out of it in some way, shape or fashion. If they get something out of it (positive or negative) then the person that wrote it should be compensated. It's as simple as that. Nothing in the world is free, people need to just deal with that. Hell man, love isn't even free.

::: so lexor, because it doesn't have an agreement in the dvd, you're entitled to steal it? I'm not talking about things you own, I'm talking about things you don't own and won't buy.

TPS: I don't know what they do with movies, but those 3 cd's I have have embedded watermarks with my name on them. So even if I did leak cds (which I don't), I would be screwed and loose my job.

[TheWahbinator]

When you dl a DVD rip you don't agree to anything, since it doesn't ask for anything and it contains no licence.

586275211[/snapback]

Wrong. Even if it's not at the beginning of the movie, it's still protected by Federal law.

[lexor]

::: so lexor, because it doesn't have an agreement in the dvd, you're entitled to steal it? I'm not talking about things you own, I'm talking about things you don't own and won't buy.

586275212[/snapback]

My reply was to a earlier comment by bangbang (I believe) who said that if you have DVD dl'ing it is still illegal.

I want to know how it is different from games, for which I can download copies if I have original.

[fkid]

All of your (joekr's) posts in this thread.

586275170[/snapback]

I agree with you 100% joekr. Keep up the wonderful showmanship of debating skill.

[Meshuggah]

I'm not talking about warez, hypocrite.? Let's try and stay on topic.

You're right.? I don't live in America :rolleyes:s: ).? Of course I'm going to obey the laws of the country I'm from and not yours.? What's your point?? Are you trying to assert I have to obey your laws too?? Your egocentric approach (both as an individual and as a nation) to this discussion is blatantly obvious.? You follow the rules in your country, and I'll follow the rules in mine.? Neowin is a site with visitors from all countries around the world... not only the United States.? You don't want to hear about other country's poTo effing bad.? Get used to it. to it.? I have every right to discuss topical issues and how they relate to Canada's policies.

It appears that I am in error regarding the itunes policy.? I'll have to forfeight my itunes argument on this matter.? I still stand by my interpretation of the DMCA, however.

Supply a link to the official document which explicitly states the above (bolded) is true... I won't hold my breath.

586275170[/snapback]

All I'm going to say is this... When Canada's laws get tighter and you're being held by your balls with a lawsuit in your hands because you went on a public place and talked explicitly about content you have stolen, don't come crying to anyone about it.

Actually, let me say this. Since you seem to obey the laws so well, are you going to continue respecting Canada when they say downloading dvds and cd's is illegal? Are you going to stop downloading once you're loving country says you can't do it anymore?

Once that happens, you'll be fighting for your rights just like Americans are.

TPS: of course you can rip dvd's from netflix. THAT is definatly under fair-rights use.

you can discuss things all you want, but this whole stupid topic is about a leak. oh wait, what are the ruNo Warez (links) & Cracks.

Help, requests or posts that discuss circumvention. This includes linking to illegally obtained software, movies & music files - posting about it, and suggesting to get it.

get it.

this thread originally had to be cleaned because of people posting torrents.

Edited July 26, 2005 by Meshuggah

[Doli]

All I'm going to say is this... When Canada's laws get tighter and you're being held by your balls with a lawsuit in your hands because you went on a public place and talked explicitly about content you have stolen, don't come crying to anyone about it.

586275355[/snapback]

might as well give up, you cant talk to kids like this, they dont want to hear your point of view (or mine). Just hope they grow up and take responsibility for themselfs and stop blaming others (the person who leaked it in the studio, the man on the street selling the bootleg, "because i have fast connection that lets me")

the world is unforgiving when your of legal age, if you get caught now its just your parents who get in trouble not you ,well it all passes down to you, they get the legal trouble you get you parents trouble/punishment :pinch:

[Meshuggah]

probably more than you, illz55, that's for sure....One of these days ill take some pictures of all the media i own

and ****, at least im giving them something instead of just clicking on "downlaod this torrent"

::::i cant discuss this anymore...im off to the studio to mix some music...better things to do :rolleyes:

[fkid]

probably more than you, that's for sure....One of these days ill take some pictures of all the media i own

586275385[/snapback]

First of all, use your eyes and brain to notice that question wasn't directed at you. Secondly, your assumption is quite egocentric and pathetic. Besides, I don't expect any honest answer from you or the person I asked the question in the beginning anyways. I hope you fall of the high-horse you're on and break your backs. From the way you're acting and what you are writing, it seems that you (and people like you) are (the only ones) providing nearly all of the financial feedback and profit to the creators of all these media entertainment works that downloaders like me are vermin that should be exterminated.

I asked dolimite35 (after quoting his post) how many DVDs/Music CDs he owns, not you Meshuggah.

[Meshuggah]

waht question? you quoted my own post and then said something, how is that not directing it to me?

[Doli]

well there will always be a line that divides us on this, but i see more and more here on neowin that while the "dont do it" people come up with good reasons and are responded with poor examples and reasons from the "do it". Its funny really to blame others for your downloading because its simply out there and you can.

[Zxian]

All I'm going to say is this... When Canada's laws get tighter and you're being held by your balls with a lawsuit in your hands because you went on a public place and talked explicitly about content you have stolen, don't come crying to anyone about it.

Actually, let me say this. Since you seem to obey the laws so well, are you going to continue respecting Canada when they say downloading dvds and cd's is illegal? Are you going to stop downloading once you're loving country says you can't do it anymore?

Once that happens, you'll be fighting for your rights just like Americans are.

Yes... in the meantime, Canadian Laws are different than American laws. When they propose changes (which they already have if you've ever followed Canadian politics) citizens will speak up for what they believe in. Why would changing laws make me disrespect my country? Laws in Canada probably aren't going to get to the point where someone can sue me over spilled hot coffee or where airport security can body search me but miss a pocket knife in my mother's purse (she left it there by accident).

you can discuss things all you want, but this whole stupid topic is about a leak. oh wait, what are the rules again??

No Warez (links) & Cracks.

Help, requests or posts that discuss circumvention. This includes linking to illegally obtained software, movies & music files - posting about it, and suggesting to get it.

this thread originally had to be cleaned because of people posting torrents.

586275355[/snapback]

Ok... so who defines illegal? America? Britain? Tibet?

And yes... three (If I counted right) mods have already cleaned up this thread from torrents and download links... but it hasn't been closed yet. IMO, it's a good discussion about rights and such, and therefore shouldn't be closed.

As for downloading a copy of a CD that I already own... what is the moral or ethical reason why I cannot do this? (i.e. why is it wrong, not illegal) I own the CD, so I have the opportunity to make a backup copy of it and rip it to my hard drive. I have paid money for the CD/licence, so what is the problem with downloading a backup copy that someone else has made? Is it not the same music? The same bytes of data on my hard drive (more or less)?

[VLR]

Um, no I'm not. You can have a subscription to medication, but buying it from a guy on the street is still illegal. In the ned, only authorized dealers have the right to distribute copyrighted material. The people you download the files from are not authorizzed to distribute the material since they neither own the copyrights nor the permission to distribute the material. Downloading from these distributors includes you in the crime. Read the DMCA and standard copyright laws.

586271762[/snapback]

Then may I suggest you to read it too?

Downloaders can't be held responsible for what they are downloading because they aren't in control of file content over the internet, uploaders are.

[fkid]

well there will always be a line that divides us on this, but i see more and more here on neowin that while the "dont do it" people come up with good reasons and are responded with poor examples and reasons from the "do it". Its funny really to blame others for your downloading because its simply out there and you can.

586275448[/snapback]

Do you mean to say that all the "don't download" people are more intelligent than those on the other side of the line?

I want to bring up another point. Ask nearly any electronic dance music producer/DJ what they think of downloading (music) for free and 8 or maybe even 9 times out of 10, you will get a "do it" response. Why? Well, it actually somehow brings them more profit, exposure and motivation. Now, keep in mind, most of these artists do not make nearly as much money as the popular musicians and movie makers in the (North American) mainstream that you and the majority of people would recognize. And yet, for some silly reason all these musicians I know of who by the way are talented, intelligent and mature individuals are part of the "do it" crowd. How strange that is eh?

[Doli]

Do you mean to say that all the "don't download" people are more intelligent than those on the other side of the line?

I want to bring up another point. Ask nearly any electronic dance music producer/DJ what they think of downloading (music) for free and 8 or maybe even 9 times out of 10, you will get a "do it" response. Why? Well, it actually somehow brings them more profit, exposure and motivation. Now, keep in mind, most of these artists do not make nearly as much money as the popular musicians and movie makers in the (North American) mainstream that you and the majority of people would recognize. And yet, for some silly reason all these musicians I know of who by the way are talented, intelligent and mature individuals are part of the "do it" crowd. How strange that is eh?

586275481[/snapback]

And that story has somthing to do with what were talking about how????

I didnt say the "dont do it" are more intelligent and you bring that story (a poor example) thinking i said that.

[Chad]

joekr...let's tone it down a bit.

First thing, the DMCA is a US law. Why you are arguing that it applies to you in Canada, I have no idea. But given your current inaccurate stance towards that law, you best be paying attention to what Canada brings in.

It's inaccurate for a couple reasons. The majority of which, timdorr and bangbang have already described. Bottom line, yeah you can make yourself a backup copy of the actual dvd you bought. No where in the DMCA does it give you the right to download another copy. What it DOES say, is that it's illegal to distribute copies of said material. When you choose to download those illegal copies, you are aiding and abetting the distributor. If you happen to be using bittorrent, you are also uploading to other users while downloading, making you fully liable for that illegal distrubution.

If you are caught with those illegally obtained copies, you WILL be prosecuted under the DMCA law. You can complain and moan all day saying we are wrong, but in the end it's just a poor justification for your activities. On top of that, a very poor understanding of your rights

[VLR]

The DMCA comes into play, though. Technically, the software used to rip DVD's has be deemed illegal (remember dvdcopyx?). Also, as soon as the user distributes the file and you download it, the crime moves past the DMCA and onto federal copyright grounds. Also, remember, unless you're a leech, you do upload while downloading meaning you are distributing the copyrighted works also.

586271838[/snapback]

DVDcopyX was a totally different story. DVDcopyX was actually cracking the protection.

[Chad]

Then may I suggest you to read it too?

Downloaders can't be held responsible for what they are downloading because they aren't in control of file content over the internet, uploaders are.

586275480[/snapback]

They can, and have been held responsible in several cases. Claim ignorance or whatever, you're still screwed.

[fkid]

And that story has somthing to do with what were talking about how????

I didnt say the "dont do it" are more intelligent and you bring that story (a poor example) thinking i said that.

586275519[/snapback]

You may have not said it exactly like that, but you said from what you've seen here on Neowin the "don't download" people have brough out more proper reasons and arguments for their beliefs. That means they have to be more intelligent and knowledgable (at least on this subject), so you are inferring that with your statements.

And if you cannot see how my other point/story has something to do with our talks of downloading for free, then you (under 90 IQ?) are no longer worth debating with or talking to!

[fkid]

if you main concern is getting rich dont make something that can be stolen so easily

there are plenty of investments that cant be stolen digitally

personally I love the revolution that has been going on since napster.? the end of the copywrite and free information for all?:cool:l:

586275533[/snapback]

I concur!

For all you copyright and legality/law lovers (who've been arguing with us bad, bad downloaders), take a look at this: http://creativecommons.org/wired/

Good stuff!

[TooPackShaker]

If you are caught with those illegally obtained copies, you WILL be prosecuted under the DMCA law.  You can complain and moan all day saying we are wrong, but in the end it's just a poor justification for your activities.  On top of that, a very poor understanding of your rights

Im not even convinced these e-police exist

anyway lets suppose they did. shouldnt they need a warrant to eavesdrop on a person's internet connection. I know phone taps arent permissable in court unless they have a warrant.

[VLR]

joekr...let's tone it down a bit.

First thing, the DMCA is a US law.  Why you are arguing that it applies to you in Canada, I have no idea.  But given your current inaccurate stance towards that law, you best be paying attention to what Canada brings in.

It's inaccurate for a couple reasons.  The majority of which, timdorr and bangbang have already described.  Bottom line, yeah you can make yourself a backup copy of the actual dvd you bought.  No where in the DMCA does it give you the right to download another copy.  What it DOES say, is that it's illegal to distribute copies of said material.  When you choose to download those illegal copies, you are aiding and abetting the distributor.  If you happen to be using bittorrent, you are also uploading to other users while downloading, making you fully liable for that illegal distrubution.

If you are caught with those illegally obtained copies, you WILL be prosecuted under the DMCA law.  You can complain and moan all day saying we are wrong, but in the end it's just a poor justification for your activities.  On top of that, a very poor understanding of your rights

586275524[/snapback]

Now I know that if I'm not sharing I'm ok, thanks a lot.