Microsoft may face more EU fines

[webeagle12]

lol and what does the rest of the world use? macs?

maybe in his little world

[seta-san]

there's not only the fines but also the legal fees. not to mention all the languages that they need to translate windows into to ship to europe. not to mention extra effort for the 'N' edition. Honestly microsoft isnt' stifling competion. windows without a webbrowser would be useless, besides, including IE with windows hasn't stifled firefox. next including windows media player, that's very important for microsoft to be able to make their os more interactive and useable out of the box. and people arn't forced to use windows media player.. even though at least it's codec interface is widely used by great media players like MPC and Core Media. I can't think of anyone who actually wants to use things like Real Media. The only part of wmp that i object to is the store stuff. The real innovation isn't in the media players, it's in the codecs. As far as codecs are concerned i see alot of good new codecs coming out. Calling eureope anti-consumer isn't fair.. i'd call it anti-buisness. Europe has become vastly socialist and they tend to hate capitalists and they invented the EU to make laws that any competive buisness can't abide by.

edit.. not to mention greed is the greatest thing in the world. it's at least on par with competition. Greed coupled with competition yields excellent results. i know i'm greedy. I don't have a lot of money but damn i want it.

That has nothing to do with the EC, it's just the generally greedy attitude of MS - Windows and other MS products have always been much more expensive here in the EU, even before the anti-trust rulings!

Also, it's quite arrogant that you are trying to speak for everyone, Brandon, in claiming that there is no one who wouldn't want that Media Player crap. Even though MS is forcing the Media Player crap onto everyone installing XP or Vista, there is still quite an amount of people who don't want it - which is the reason why there is quite alot of other media players still, and also the reason for programs like nLite which lets people remove the unwanted Media Player.

If anyone is anti-consumer here, it's no one but MS as they're seriously stifling competition and thus prevent innovation. Just take a look at IE6 - MS didn't update it for many years as it had successfully eliminated any competition and thus prevented any new innovation from happening. Only with the recent rise of Firefox (and also Opera, to a smaller extent), MS was getting competition again and was thus forced to create an updated and improved IE - IE7. Without cmpetition, MS wouldn't have bothered to ever update IE6 anymore.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Chad

[.Ark]

Ultimately competition is the best thing for customers. If a company has little competition, why would it be motivated to innovate? That said, I think the EC is a bit over-the-top in what it views as anti-competitive behavior.

Toyota doesn't have a monopoly on automobiles, so it's not a great comparison. If Canada Post (which arguably has a monopoly on mail delivery in Canada) started adding new services that compete with Purolator/FedEx, Purolator/FedEx would claim anti-competitive practices.

Right on. Now... why isn't Apple being penalized here for including movie maker, safari and all that bull **** in their operating systems? They should even give out their source code and make a hardware independent OS if we talk in EU terms because making OS X so it works with Apple hardware only doesn't allow competition in the hardware industry for companies that want to make hardware for Macs. Apple is eliminating competition...

What a bull$hit. :x

That has nothing to do with the EC, it's just the generally greedy attitude of MS - Windows and other MS products have always been much more expensive here in the EU, even before the anti-trust rulings!

Also, it's quite arrogant that you are trying to speak for everyone, Brandon, in claiming that there is no one who wouldn't want that Media Player crap. Even though MS is forcing the Media Player crap onto everyone installing XP or Vista, there is still quite an amount of people who don't want it - which is the reason why there is quite alot of other media players still, and also the reason for programs like nLite which lets people remove the unwanted Media Player.

If anyone is anti-consumer here, it's no one but MS as they're seriously stifling competition and thus prevent innovation. Just take a look at IE6 - MS didn't update it for many years as it had successfully eliminated any competition and thus prevented any new innovation from happening. Only with the recent rise of Firefox (and also Opera, to a smaller extent), MS was getting competition again and was thus forced to create an updated and improved IE - IE7. Without cmpetition, MS wouldn't have bothered to ever update IE6 anymore.

Okay lets see here:

1) Microsoft is NOT forcing you to install IE and what not.. I mean, what else are you gonna use to download a new browser? If consumers had to find a CD to install a browser, it would be pretty pathetic.

2) Okay.. MS doesn't update it, go get a different browser. If they work only under competition, who is stopping others from making new browsers? Microsoft didn't have to release IE free versions of XP/Vista for Firefox to succeed, did they? No one is stopping you from installing other stuff. You have to install new stuff anyways if you don't like IE. I don't even see where you are coming from when you say "MS didn't update it for many years as it had successfully eliminated any competition and thus prevented any new innovation from happening." If they don't update IE6, all the innovation in the world stops? Other companies can't produce innovative products BECAUSE IE6 was never updated? :unsure:

[Rablet]

...besides, including IE with windows hasn't stifled firefox...

Maybe not, but it was a huge blow to Netscape back when MS first started integrating IE with windows.

[ichi]

1) Microsoft is NOT forcing you to install IE and what not.. I mean, what else are you gonna use to download a new browser? If consumers had to find a CD to install a browser, it would be pretty pathetic.

This has been said like 100.000.000 times: it's not the consumer who would have to download a browser, the OEM would install it. You would never get a computer without browser, but you would get the chance to choose what browser you want INSTEAD of IE. Same with the media player.

If they don't update IE6, all the innovation in the world stops? Other companies can't produce innovative products BECAUSE IE6 was never updated? :unsure:

The thing is, MS is updating IE because the began to lose market share. Sure, other browsers can be innovative, but since IE became the defacto standard years ago when MS bullied netscape, companies have built their products around it.

Does vendor lock-in ring any bell?

Now... why isn't Apple being penalized here for including movie maker, safari and all that bull **** in their operating systems?

Well, don't feel so special: MS isn't even near to holding the record on anti-trust related fines in the EU.

[libertas83]

This has been said like 100.000.000 times: it's not the consumer who would have to download a browser, the OEM would install it. You would never get a computer without browser, but you would get the chance to choose what browser you want INSTEAD of IE. Same with the media player.

OEMs already do this, and had more freedom to do this after the US Anti-trust trial. The EU trial has not done anything to benefit consumers choice.

The thing is, MS is updating IE because the began to lose market share. Sure, other browsers can be innovative, but since IE became the defacto standard years ago when MS bullied netscape, companies have built their products around it.

Partly true. MS decided to innovate beyond the web browser(WPF), but took too long to do it and now the stakes are higher.

Does vendor lock-in ring any bell?

Well, don't feel so special: MS isn't even near to holding the record on anti-trust related fines in the EU.

Vendor-lock in, um, no. I am free to choose, thanks to thosands of developers, any replacement to any MS tool that exists. It used to be all shareware or commerical products, but now there many good freeware and open source tools out there. This was more popular over 10 years ago because it was mostly tech enthusiasts using computers back then. As average users started using the computer for more than work, they wanted someone to provide them easy tools to check email, browse the web, and now much more.

Many average people will only want you, the expert, to tell them what to use. They trust your opinion, and will use it. They are not interested in many choices because it is overwhelming for them when they just want to get the job done. If they decide they want more than the basic, they can find many good programs out there to satisfy them, and MS doesn't block them from doing it.

[.Ark]

This has been said like 100.000.000 times: it's not the consumer who would have to download a browser, the OEM would install it. You would never get a computer without browser, but you would get the chance to choose what browser you want INSTEAD of IE. Same with the media player.

The thing is, MS is updating IE because the began to lose market share. Sure, other browsers can be innovative, but since IE became the defacto standard years ago when MS bullied netscape, companies have built their products around it.

Does vendor lock-in ring any bell?

Well, don't feel so special: MS isn't even near to holding the record on anti-trust related fines in the EU.

Well libertas83 answered all your questions.. and yeh.. OEMs already put all the crap they want, so they can put Firefox or whatever on their PCs... and its not Microsofts fault that companies are building around them.. if companies want to produce something unique.. they can always do that.. and yeh like i said.. refer to the above post if u want more repsoneses to ur questions.. :rolleyes:

[Mathiasdm]

Right on. Now... why isn't Apple being penalized here for including movie maker, safari and all that bull **** in their operating systems? They should even give out their source code and make a hardware independent OS if we talk in EU terms because making OS X so it works with Apple hardware only doesn't allow competition in the hardware industry for companies that want to make hardware for Macs. Apple is eliminating competition...

Because Apple isn't a monopoly?

However, they're a monopoly when it comes to iPods and iTunes, and there are claims that they have abused that monopoly, so they're (if I remember correctly) going to trial in France.

Okay lets see here:

1) Microsoft is NOT forcing you to install IE and what not.. I mean, what else are you gonna use to download a new browser? If consumers had to find a CD to install a browser, it would be pretty pathetic.

2) Okay.. MS doesn't update it, go get a different browser. If they work only under competition, who is stopping others from making new browsers? Microsoft didn't have to release IE free versions of XP/Vista for Firefox to succeed, did they? No one is stopping you from installing other stuff. You have to install new stuff anyways if you don't like IE. I don't even see where you are coming from when you say "MS didn't update it for many years as it had successfully eliminated any competition and thus prevented any new innovation from happening." If they don't update IE6, all the innovation in the world stops? Other companies can't produce innovative products BECAUSE IE6 was never updated? :unsure:

Isn't this article about the API's MS was required to release? I'm pretty sure it's not about bundling.

[Erp.]

If I was Mr. Bill, I would start giving the EU small warnings -

#1 - lay off all Microsoft employees residing in the EU and close all offices.

#2 - discontinue all support and updates to EU government agencies using MS products.

#3 - close all MS bank accounts in the EU.

#4 - go to online sales only for EU customers, offering only paid phone support and charge them 2X the normal amount. Give them an even more restrictive EULA.

Maybe after they find that converting to Linux requires retraining all the workers, and Apple hardware is very expensive, they will change their tune.

Edited March 6, 2007 by wyatt erp

[ichi]

OEMs already do this, and had more freedom to do this after the US Anti-trust trial. The EU trial has not done anything to benefit consumers choice.

Notice I said "instead", not "in adition to". I even put it in capitals.

Vendor-lock in, um, no. I am free to choose, thanks to thosands of developers, any replacement to any MS tool that exists. It used to be all shareware or commerical products, but now there many good freeware and open source tools out there. This was more popular over 10 years ago because it was mostly tech enthusiasts using computers back then. As average users started using the computer for more than work, they wanted someone to provide them easy tools to check email, browse the web, and now much more.

Many average people will only want you, the expert, to tell them what to use. They trust your opinion, and will use it. They are not interested in many choices because it is overwhelming for them when they just want to get the job done. If they decide they want more than the basic, they can find many good programs out there to satisfy them, and MS doesn't block them from doing it.

Sure there're nice free tools, but MS works hard to ensure none of them works nicely with their propietary stuff.

and its not Microsofts fault that companies are building around them.. if companies want to produce something unique.. they can always do that.. and yeh like i said..

When you kill the competition it's obvious that companies will build their producs around yours. Then it's just a matter of obfuscating both your document formats and protocols, and breaking them in every upgrade so a)users are forced to upgrade, and b)render null any compatibility rivals might have achieved.

refer to the above post if u want more repsoneses to ur questions..

Wtf are you talking about... are you kidding me, or do you really ignore the difference between "question" and "answer"?

#1 - lay off all Microsoft employees residing in the EU and close all offices.

#2 - discontinue all support and updates to EU government agencies using MS products.

#3 - close all MS bank accounts in the EU.

#4 - go to online sales only for EU customers, offering only paid phone support and charge them 2X the normal amount.

lol yeah, screwing your customers sounds like a good idea. Good luck explaining your plan to the shareholders :rolleyes:

Give them an even more restrictive EULA

Now that's even more funny: since EULAs are not legally binding, they'd be trying to hurt customers without actually doing so... best PR move ever :rofl:

[Erp.]

If the EU customers keep supporting governments that are socialist, that hate America and US corporations, then yes, screw them. I don't see the EU as a market that is worth keeping unless they become reasonable partners and allies. Bill Gates has been entirely too nice and patient in dealing with these lawsuits. He has enough money that, yes, he can thumb his nose at entire markets and his shareholders too. I just wish he would.

[ichi]

If the EU customers keep supporting governments that are socialist, that hate America and US corporations, then yes, screw them. I don't see the EU as a market that is worth keeping unless they become reasonable partners and allies. Bill Gates has been entirely too nice and patient in dealing with these lawsuits. He has enough money that, yes, he can thumb his nose at entire markets and his shareholders too. I just wish he would.

You can continue living in the illusion that all this is about EU vs US, or grow up and realize the EU is just enforcing the current anti-trust laws the same as they would do with any other company.

If you bothered to read my post above you'd know that the fine applied so far to MS is not uncommon. AFAIK the record is hold by a german company, so there goes all that "EU hates US" BS.

[Aero Ultimate]

Sure there're nice free tools, but MS works hard to ensure none of them works nicely with their propietary stuff.

Yes, even though they have been sentenced to enable competitors to be able to make their products running properly, they are still doing their darndest to get around this.

When you kill the competition it's obvious that companies will build their producs around yours. Then it's just a matter of obfuscating both your document formats and protocols, and breaking them in every upgrade so a)users are forced to upgrade, and b)render null any compatibility rivals might have achieved.

Yes, everything to make sure they can keep their monopoly so competitors won't have a chance.

lol yeah, screwing your customers sounds like a good idea. Good luck explaining your plan to the shareholders :rolleyes:

Now that's even more funny: since EULAs are not legally binding, they'd be trying to hurt customers without actually doing so... best PR move ever :rofl:

Especially #1 would get them serious negative PR. This isn't the US where you can treat employees like toilet paper, using them to wipe your bum first and then throwing them away.

Just go ahead with that, and the already ailing Vista sales would dwindle down to next to nothing. Now the big surprise: not buying Vista would not hurt the EU, not the tiniest bit, it would hurt MS :p

If the EU customers keep supporting governments that are socialist, that hate America and US corporations, then yes, screw them. I don't see the EU as a market that is worth keeping unless they become reasonable partners and allies. Bill Gates has been entirely too nice and patient in dealing with these lawsuits. He has enough money that, yes, he can thumb his nose at entire markets and his shareholders too. I just wish he would.

Oh noes! The evil, evil EU should not be allowed to use the buggy US crap anymore? :laugh:

I really wished the EU would actually close all trade relations with the US, then the already floundering US economy would definitely go down the drain :rofl:

[cybershark]

I really wished the EU would actually close all trade relations with the US, then the already floundering US economy would definitely go down the drain :rofl:

Ignorance is bliss. There are many more US multi nationals than EU one's. If the US economy went down drain, the EU economy would be in "hell".

[troist]

what would happen if microsoft refused to pay? if the EU tell them that they can't sell windows or office anymore then there would be a major uprising... the EU is blatantly just ripping off microsoft. heck, they've stolen more off microsoft than they'd probably make off some countries taxes in a year.

[.Ark]

I really wished the EU would actually close all trade relations with the US, then the already floundering US economy would definitely go down the drain :rofl:

Wow... how old are you there buddy? You wish EU would close all trade relations with the US? If the EU did that, there will be no EU becasue all the countries would be like **** EU and they would do their own trade.. if ALL US companies stopped trading with EU... US and EU will go down the drain together.... So yeh, if EU stopped trading with US... they might as well drop a nuke on themselves to avoid the consequences..

[MrCobra]

...and realize the EU is just enforcing the current anti-trust laws the same as they would do with any other company...

It seems very strange to me that the business practices of Microsoft weren't a concern until sh*t companies bitched and whined that nobody wanted their crapware and couldn't compete because of it. I'm not on either side but I do think they have every right to license their IP for whatever prices they can get from it. They shouldn't be told that they have to license it cheaper or give it away.

On the topic of bundling that everyone seems to think this article is about...I do think that they should provide a default install of the core, desktop manager and networking capabilities and make everything else optional.

[Mathiasdm]

Wow... how old are you there buddy? You wish EU would close all trade relations with the US? If the EU did that, there will be no EU becasue all the countries would be like **** EU and they would do their own trade.. if ALL US companies stopped trading with EU... US and EU will go down the drain together.... So yeh, if EU stopped trading with US... they might as well drop a nuke on themselves to avoid the consequences..

It's sarcasm?

Just like it would be foolish for Microsoft to leave the EU market, it would be foolish for the EU to stop trading with the US.

Oh, and this isn't about EU against US! It's about a company violating anti-trust regulations (or not, depending on your opinion).

[.Ark]

It's sarcasm?

Just like it would be foolish for Microsoft to leave the EU market, it would be foolish for the EU to stop trading with the US.

Oh, and this isn't about EU against US! It's about a company violating anti-trust regulations (or not, depending on your opinion).

What part of my post seemed like sarcasm to you?

[Mathiasdm]

What part of my post seemed like sarcasm to you?

Not your post, the post you were replying too.

Why? Because that post was in response to another post by somebody stating that he wished Microsoft retreated from the EU so the EU would be in trouble.

[.Ark]

Not your post, the post you were replying too.

Why? Because that post was in response to another post by somebody stating that he wished Microsoft retreated from the EU so the EU would be in trouble.

lol thats coo

[Aero Ultimate]

Not your post, the post you were replying too.

Why? Because that post was in response to another post by somebody stating that he wished Microsoft retreated from the EU so the EU would be in trouble.

Ah, finally someone who noticed it :yes:

Certain green ducks should better think before they start flaming mindlessly :pinch:

[Nathanael]

If I was Mr. Bill, I would start giving the EU small warnings -

#1 - lay off all Microsoft employees residing in the EU and close all offices.

#2 - discontinue all support and updates to EU government agencies using MS products.

#3 - close all MS bank accounts in the EU.

#4 - go to online sales only for EU customers, offering only paid phone support and charge them 2X the normal amount. Give them an even more restrictive EULA.

Maybe after they find that converting to Linux requires retraining all the workers, and Apple hardware is very expensive, they will change their tune.

Haha, that's too funny.

Retraining all workers - well even if that was necesary, it would be a one time investment and there than would be no more microsoft fees.

Ignorance is bliss. There are many more US multi nationals than EU one's. If the US economy went down drain, the EU economy would be in "hell".

It wouldn't help either economies. To speculate where it'd be worse is just ludicrous.

[Erp.]

Nobody except politicians being bribed by competing companies wants Windows stripped down and crippled.

I'm beginning to think that because that the EU can't dictate foreign policy to the US, they are going after our economic leaders. Good luck with that.<sarcasm>

[ichi]

Nobody except politicians being bribed by competing companies wants Windows stripped down and crippled.

So everyone choosing Windows is a bribed politician? :huh:

:p