Denon say Blu-Ray Profile 1.1 discs may not play on 1.0 players

[Morpheus Phreak]

I don't see this being as big of a deal as you guys are making it out to be. Worst possible scenario? Someone can't play a few extra features. Sony does some stupid things, but even they would know it's be format suicide to break compatibility completely.

You mean like Sony stating that the PS3 will have native compatability with PS2 and PS1 titles and then removing the emotion engine?

The native compatability was one of the few reasons that I respected Sony with the PS3, as soon as I heard that they were yanking it I went straight for the XBox360 since they have at least been honest and have been steadily releasing more emulation profiles for games.

[Veedems Veteran]

You mean like Sony stating that the PS3 will have native compatability with PS2 and PS1 titles and then removing the emotion engine?

The native compatability was one of the few reasons that I respected Sony with the PS3, as soon as I heard that they were yanking it I went straight for the XBox360 since they have at least been honest and have been steadily releasing more emulation profiles for games.

Read the post above yours: It will still play the actual movie.

Your analogy is also off. If you wanted to compare this to the PS3's backwards compatibility with the PS2 library, then we'd have to be discussing the possibility of blu-ray players no longer playing DVDs.

[Boz]

Wow people here..truly unbelievable..

First of all, let's make something clear. This is being stated by Jeff Talmadge, Denon's Director of Product Development and Systems Integration, not me. So please, lay off the personal attacks.

Second, Denon being the ONLY Blu-RAy player with 1.1 I'm inclined to believe him more then Sony or CE companies who's money is tied up into Blu-Ray. Of course, it's not a big deal when you have ALL Blu-Ray players with 1.0 Profile.

I find it very interesting how people justify that you would be paying $600 player to NOT have all features of the disc. Unbelievable. It's ok to just play a feature film only? Wow...

Btw, there's more to playback compatibility between Profile 1.0 and 1.1 players. If there's BD-J code that takes advantage of some special things on the disc, like menu navigation and similar, the WHOLE disc might not play. Even though this is highly unlikely it can happen. Thought it might be fixable by firmware update, on the other hand, it might not. We will have to see, but you know what, I personally have a problem betting that everythign will be peachy by paying something $500-$600. But hey, you know, somehow people supporting Blu-Ray are fine with all that.

Out of ~300 Blu-ray releases only ~24 have actually used BD-J in some capacity on the disc. The other 275 discs have used DVD-like menu structure (pre-rendered motion, or only a still image) that does not require or use BD-J. I was told only 8 or so new BD-J titles were currently being worked on. Out of the two dozen or so titles that did use BD-J, many of them were the discs that many people had problems playing, such as slow to load, features that don't work, player compatbilities, etc. Some of the notable titles are Descent, 2 PotC's, Speed, LXG, and Crank, all of which had problems of some nature. This is a good sign of the dangers of Profiles, especially with BD-J and Profile 1.1.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Boz

[Veedems Veteran]

Boz, not for nothing, besides a few outtakes on a DVD or two, I've never used the extra features and I'm quite sure a majority of people are with me in that. Most of us just want to see the movie.

[Boz]

Boz, not for nothing, besides a few outtakes on a DVD or two, I've never used the extra features and I'm quite sure a majority of people are with me in that. Most of us just want to see the movie.

Well you know what, that's you. To say, that for everyone else this is irrelevant is a bit irresponsible right? If you don't have a problem with it, that's fine, but there's a large percentage of people out there that value this as obviously we wouldn't have these extras on regular DVDs to begin with correct? Especially when you pay $600 for a player. Would you be happy if you paid $40k for a car and it's hi-fi system didn't work inside? You can still drive it, but those accessories inside are simply not working right or not at all. Come on.

The problem we are facing here is lack of objectiveness and a lot of self-centered consumers who are very hypocritical when it comes to mass features as THEY simply don't need it.

[Veedems Veteran]

The problem we are facing this is lack of objectiveness

Now THAT's the most ironic thing I've read on here in a while and, mind you, I actually prefer HD-DVD myself.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Second, Denon being the ONLY Blu-RAy player with 1.1 I'm inclined to believe him more then Sony or CE companies who's money is tied up into Blu-Ray. Of course, it's not a big deal when you have ALL Blu-Ray players with 1.0 Profile.

Surely because they have the ONLY Blu-Ray 1.1 player they'd be more likely to big up the issue in order to sell their player?

NEway, it seems you're picking on anything and everything to criticise Blu-Ray. I expect new technology to have issues, particularly as complicated as this generation - early DVD players had very poor navigation controls and were often very slow with menus. We're not talking about something unique to Blu-Ray that spells the downfall of the entire format - we're talking about relatively small issues (that obviously shouldn't be there - I'm not defending them). A lot of problems can at least be solved with firmware updates which most, if not all, players support. Missing hardware features are more of an issue and could be a lot more serious. Basically the PS3 is the model for other players to base themselves on - if the PS3 can't play discs then there will be serious troubles.

[TDQuiksilver]

But what he is saying is that there is also a large percentage of us who just buy the movie to do just that: watch the movie

Bonus features are nice, but my assumption would seem to wander towards: If you surveyed each and every individual on this planet regarding special features of a movie, probably 1/3 would say it's important or very important to have them. The other 2/3 could probably don't care a single bit. Again, just an assumption and a guess at numbers.

And I've always wondered while media players are sat side by side with cars in analogies. One is used to get you places, the other keeps you in one spot! :laugh:

[notuptome2004]

well for people who wish to have just the movie should take up a potion and get VHS back just so they have just the movie and that is it.

[sundayx Veteran]

Don't even start with VHS vs HD.

[goji]

I don't see this being as big of a deal as you guys are making it out to be. Worst possible scenario? Someone can't play a few extra features. Sony does some stupid things, but even they would know it's be format suicide to break compatibility completely.

What should concern us if any newer pressed discs begin to utilize "Deep Color" which is a different video tech spec than what current players can currently decode. Though I doubt it will happen soon, I beleive it is possible, as the spec has been certified and is being marketed as a the "next big video thing" which no one can even use :p

Would you be happy if you paid $40k for a car and it's hi-fi system didn't work inside? You can still drive it, but those accessories inside are simply not working right or not at all.

To be honest, I would laugh at the person who insisted it was hi-fi to begin with, knowing that most cars in the price range come with a bose system, and its far from being considered hi-fi :p There could be a nice system possibly, but no where near that realm.

Don't even start with VHS vs HD.

Ok, how about D-VHS ;)

Edited September 13, 2007 by GOJI_GKing2000

[Boz]

But what he is saying is that there is also a large percentage of us who just buy the movie to do just that: watch the movie

Bonus features are nice, but my assumption would seem to wander towards: If you surveyed each and every individual on this planet regarding special features of a movie, probably 1/3 would say it's important or very important to have them. The other 2/3 could probably don't care a single bit. Again, just an assumption and a guess at numbers.

And I've always wondered while media players are sat side by side with cars in analogies. One is used to get you places, the other keeps you in one spot! :laugh:

You see I understand what you are saying. However the problem is that you really don't know whether you'll like these new features or not right? I mean we've never seen this type of interactivity, information, add-ons, videos, intermixed content with the movie so you can see every aspect of the movie making or the history behind the movie. 300 on HD DVD is a perfect example of this new age of movie watching. Actually you've probably didn't get a chance to really see either way because Blu-Ray simply doesn't have them. It is important to note that these features ARE COMING to Blu-Ray but are now completely dismissed because Blu-Ray can't do them. Once they become available, there will be people going around yelling, OMG you gotta see this and this on Blu-ray it's so cool. We both know it's gonna happen.

So when I see people making statements like this, it's for 2 reasons only. One is that they REALLY don't care about anything like that (which is a shame), because you are really not a serious movie fan if you don't at least watch interesting facts behind the movie etc etc. For me personally that's the whole experience. I often find myself watching the movie with friends. But on some weekends, I sit down and just go explore these discs with features to find out great stuff. Don't forget, this interactive part is just getting really interesting on HD DVD, while it's non-existant on Blu-ray for at least next year and a half or two.

The second type of people who are speaking against features, are actually aware that this is something very unique that HD brings us. Online connectivity, extra online services offered directly through our players, engaging content that is always up to date with our discs regardless if the disc is 2-3 years old etc etc, but they choose to speak badly of it as it ruins their reality of Blu-Ray as unfinished format and demotes HD DVD advantages as it is obviously a very thoroughly thought out format.

Again, I will say, slightly higher bitrate and larger capacity that have shown so far absolutely NO benefit for our viewing experience are completely irrelevant in this world of mp3s, mp4s and iTunes and Apple TVs and Windows Media Centers and PC speakers etc etc. Optical media will be completely phased out and investing in this technology in order to increase size or something is completely ridiculous. Persistent storage on our living room devices and online content with ultra large capacity USB devices that are small enough will take over. This is already happening today, and you can imagine in 5 years from now. If anything, the future brings us real time content, being renderer, created on-fly.

This is why Blu-Ray for example will mean even less for PS3s as new game engines and stuff will be completely real-time generated. The processing power of both PS3 and X360 are tremendous and creating huge 3d animations that take gigabytes and gigabytes of space are now completely rendered in real-time.

Think about it. HD DVD extra features are much more then HD itself and even though it is in early stages now, it carries amazing potential that goes beyond just gag reels and commentary like on regular DVDs.

[Tamilboy86]

You see I understand what you are saying. However the problem is that you really don't know whether you'll like these new features or not right? I mean we've never seen this type of interactivity, information, add-ons, videos, intermixed content with the movie so you can see every aspect of the movie making or the history behind the movie. 300 on HD DVD is a perfect example of this new age of movie watching. Actually you've probably didn't get a chance to really see either way because Blu-Ray simply doesn't have them. It is important to note that these features ARE COMING to Blu-Ray but are now completely dismissed because Blu-Ray can't do them. Once they become available, there will be people going around yelling, OMG you gotta see this and this on Blu-ray it's so cool. We both know it's gonna happen.

So when I see people making statements like this, it's for 2 reasons only. One is that they REALLY don't care about anything like that (which is a shame), because you are really not a serious movie fan if you don't at least watch interesting facts behind the movie etc etc. For me personally that's the whole experience. I often find myself watching the movie with friends. But on some weekends, I sit down and just go explore these discs with features to find out great stuff. Don't forget, this interactive part is just getting really interesting on HD DVD, while it's non-existant on Blu-ray for at least next year and a half or two.

The second type of people who are speaking against features, are actually aware that this is something very unique that HD brings us. Online connectivity, extra online services offered directly through our players, engaging content that is always up to date with our discs regardless if the disc is 2-3 years old etc etc, but they choose to speak badly of it as it ruins their reality of Blu-Ray as unfinished format and demotes HD DVD advantages as it is obviously a very thoroughly thought out format.

Again, I will say, slightly higher bitrate and larger capacity that have shown so far absolutely NO benefit for our viewing experience are completely irrelevant in this world of mp3s, mp4s and iTunes and Apple TVs and Windows Media Centers and PC speakers etc etc. Optical media will be completely phased out and investing in this technology in order to increase size or something is completely ridiculous. Persistent storage on our living room devices and online content with ultra large capacity USB devices that are small enough will take over. This is already happening today, and you can imagine in 5 years from now. If anything, the future brings us real time content, being renderer, created on-fly.

This is why Blu-Ray for example will mean even less for PS3s as new game engines and stuff will be completely real-time generated. The processing power of both PS3 and X360 are tremendous and creating huge 3d animations that take gigabytes and gigabytes of space are now completely rendered in real-time.

Think about it. HD DVD extra features are much more then HD itself and even though it is in early stages now, it carries amazing potential that goes beyond just gag reels and commentary like on regular DVDs.

I totally agree (Y)

[PiracyX]

Everyone should just listen to Boz (Y)

I find your posts very imformative and well thought out. You clearly know what you are talking about (Y)

[sambrentnall]

Boz is the man when it comes to HD-dvd/Blu-Ray.

[giantpotato]

Boz is the man when it comes to HD-dvd/Blu-Ray.

I believe you mean "Boz is the man when it comes to HD-dvd".

When people bought 1st/2nd Gen Blu-Ray players, they got them to play Blu-Ray movies. That will not change, they will always be able to play Blu-Ray movies. They're not loosing out on anything. It's as if I bought a regular DVD player and then upscaling DVD players came out. My player can still do what I bought it to do, but I don't get the benefits of the newer generation of players.

Also, I don't have the actual numbers but I'm guessing the most common Blu-Ray player is actually the PS3. It's very likely PS3's will be upgradeable to profile 1.1 since they meet the requirements for storage, ethernet, and the processor can very likely decode two video/audio streams at once.

[Jason S. Global Moderator]

It's very likely PS3's will be upgradeable to profile 1.1 since they meet the requirements for storage, ethernet, and the processor can very likely decode two video/audio streams at once.

you may be right, but 'may' is the keyword. again, profile 1.1 requires a 2nd processor which the PS3 does not have. although i understand what you mean b/c you speak of the Cell processor and it may be able to handle the coprocessing thus making it 1.1 compliant. we'll see ;)

Boz, you rule.

[Ayepecks]

That would really stink, but I'm sure they're trying to get them all to be compatible... they wouldn't want the backlash.

[gigapixels Veteran]

When people bought 1st/2nd Gen Blu-Ray players, they got them to play Blu-Ray movies. That will not change, they will always be able to play Blu-Ray movies. They're not loosing out on anything. It's as if I bought a regular DVD player and then upscaling DVD players came out. My player can still do what I bought it to do, but I don't get the benefits of the newer generation of players.

This is you. There are plenty of people who will see the new features available and say, "Hey, I want to check those out," but when they go to try them on their Profile 1.0 players, they won't be able to. I can see your point on upscaling, but at the same time, upscaling came much later in DVD's lifetime when costs were a lot lower than the current Blu-ray costs, so people were able to afford purchasing a new DVD player to get upscaling while with Blu-ray they'll most likely be stuck with what they've got or not want to spend the money again. If that happens, they'll definitely get a sour taste in their mouth from Blu-ray.

[Sheppard]

Yes, I know Wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source, but there you have it.

1.0 players will still be able to play 1.1 movies.

Boz has made a mountain out of a molehill.

So you like paying over $1000 for a hardware player back when 1.0 spec was out, then pay over the odds for the high definition version of the film only to find that its completely crippled and you can ONLY play back the main feature, you lose all the extras and in film stuff.

Because if that were me id be pretty ****ed.

But what he is saying is that there is also a large percentage of us who just buy the movie to do just that: watch the movie

Bonus features are nice, but my assumption would seem to wander towards: If you surveyed each and every individual on this planet regarding special features of a movie, probably 1/3 would say it's important or very important to have them. The other 2/3 could probably don't care a single bit. Again, just an assumption and a guess at numbers.

And I've always wondered while media players are sat side by side with cars in analogies. One is used to get you places, the other keeps you in one spot! :laugh:

I think its funny, when theres a flaw with HD-DVD, Blu-Ray "supporters" are the first ones to bound in there pointing this out, but when its a flaw with Blu-Ray, its not a flaw there is nothing to worry about at least the main feature still plays.....ignore the fact that youve spent nearly $1000 on a 1st gen 1.0 player and the fact that youve paid $10-20 more than the DVD version of the same film... Its ok, the main feature still works, crisis averted......

I believe you mean "Boz is the man when it comes to HD-dvd".

When people bought 1st/2nd Gen Blu-Ray players, they got them to play Blu-Ray movies. That will not change, they will always be able to play Blu-Ray movies. They're not loosing out on anything. It's as if I bought a regular DVD player and then upscaling DVD players came out. My player can still do what I bought it to do, but I don't get the benefits of the newer generation of players.

Also, I don't have the actual numbers but I'm guessing the most common Blu-Ray player is actually the PS3. It's very likely PS3's will be upgradeable to profile 1.1 since they meet the requirements for storage, ethernet, and the processor can very likely decode two video/audio streams at once.

The fact is people can pay less and still enjoy ALL the features of the NEWEST movies on HD DVD :D

[torrentthief]

stupid early adopters wait another 18months until all standards are finalised, firmwares are feature rich and players are fairly cheap and play both hddvd and bluray.

[TDQuiksilver]

Think about it. HD DVD extra features are much more then HD itself and even though it is in early stages now, it carries amazing potential that goes beyond just gag reels and commentary like on regular DVDs.

And you get what you pay for. When these "extra extra EXTRA" features become more available on HD-DVD, that's only goint to mean one thing: raise the price.

Current DVD's today are appropriately priced for the movie and little extra content you get. Considering the price of the media for Blu-ray (and yes HD-DVD too), add all these additional features you are raving about and what does that leave you with? The MPAA and studios doing what they do best: taking more of your money.

So really when it comes down to it I believe you cost arguement will nullify itself in the long run. The two will be so close in price that any argument would be childish to draw out. Hell, the charts still show a Blu-ray advatage in sales if you want to get right down to it (arguements you, of course, failed to show factual data on - don't take it personal).

Feature wise it seems as though you expect Blu-ray to never expand and HD-DVD being the only format to progress itself. It's been said before: you are making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to certain features. It still, and always will, boil down to what each and every individual wants... not what you want for us. It's almost like having religion crammed down your throat.

No matter what the majority prefers here on Neowin, some of you have to realize one thing. This planet is a lot larger than a dinky forum on the internet. And so far the population as a whole has preferred Blu-ray over HD-DVD. Guess the extra features HD-DVD provides versus Blu-ray's means diddly squat. It's funny how things turn out sometimes.

[NateB1]

And you get what you pay for. When these "extra extra EXTRA" features become more available on HD-DVD, that's only goint to mean one thing: raise the price.

Current DVD's today are appropriately priced for the movie and little extra content you get. Considering the price of the media for Blu-ray (and yes HD-DVD too), add all these additional features you are raving about and what does that leave you with? The MPAA and studios doing what they do best: taking more of your money.

So really when it comes down to it I believe you cost arguement will nullify itself in the long run. The two will be so close in price that any argument would be childish to draw out. Hell, the charts still show a Blu-ray advatage in sales if you want to get right down to it (arguements you, of course, failed to show factual data on - don't take it personal).

Feature wise it seems as though you expect Blu-ray to never expand and HD-DVD being the only format to progress itself. It's been said before: you are making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to certain features. It still, and always will, boil down to what each and every individual wants... not what you want for us. It's almost like having religion crammed down your throat.

No matter what the majority prefers here on Neowin, some of you have to realize one thing. This planet is a lot larger than a dinky forum on the internet. And so far the population as a whole has preferred Blu-ray over HD-DVD. Guess the extra features HD-DVD provides versus Blu-ray's means diddly squat. It's funny how things turn out sometimes.

Biased much?

Yes, Blu-Ray is selling more now, but wait until Sony stops subsidizing disc production costs - with the current abysmal yield rates (in the 50% to 60% range, compared to HD-DVD's 90%+ ), prices will inevitably shoot up.

What you and other Blu-Ray supporters fail to realize, is that according to current trends, HD-DVD players will always (at least in the foreseeable future) be cheaper than Blu-Ray players, due to Sony's mismanagement and cheaper parts for HD-DVD.

Back to this article, if early adopters find out that some feature isn't working on their $1000 player, if I were them, I would be extremely upset, especially when I find out that the HD-DVD spec has no missing features from day 1. This alone would convince me to switch - who knows what would happen if Sony introduced Profile 1.2?

I fully expect more studios to jump on the HD-DVD bandwagon once they realize the lower production costs and the easy-to-code capabilities of the HD-DVD platform.

[dead.cell]

Meh, I say, if you bought into all this prematurely, you're an idiot. Don't care what/how you wish to object to it, but I really find no sympathy for early adopters. Much less, those who cry about. Obviously, if you had enough to buy the crap, you're not gonna go bankrupt. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, for those of us that DIDN'T buy into all the hype, let's wait for those awesome prices, no? Til then, I find no emergency for Hi-Def crap. :p

[Boz]

This planet is a lot larger than a dinky forum on the internet. And so far the population as a whole has preferred Blu-ray over HD-DVD. Guess the extra features HD-DVD provides versus Blu-ray's means diddly squat. It's funny how things turn out sometimes.

Says who? Having a playstation console that just provides a confusion in measuring real world numbers for a new format doesn't constitute Blu-Ray dominance.

Let's put it this way.. let's say Toyota is manufacturing the biggest number of cars on the market. They are including ie. (imaginary) Chow-Song CD players in their cars. Would you say that Chow-Song CD players are the most favored CD players in the world? Of course not, just because every car, that has a completely different purpose for it's existence - driving, not listening to music, comes with Chow-Song CD player doesn't constitute that majority of people 1. Like these players 2. Actually listen to CDs (most of them listen to radio)

On the other hand Pioneer CD players ie. with super ultra cool features have been selling like crazy, but as standalone CD players that you need to install in your car. Sure, the number of these devices might be lower in manufacturing then Toyota's Chow-Song CD players, but it is very obvious that Pioneer is much better and more accepted player in general as people actually go to buy it with intention.

Do you understand the point what I'm trying to make here?

Just because of the fact that many people are buying PS3 for their own reasons, doesn't mean that Blu-Ray is widely accepted worldwide? It's being forced onto consumer. Standalone sales which are actually more realistic are saying a different story. From the beginning HD DVD hardware have been outselling Blu-Ray hardware average 70:30 to date.

It is quite misleading to say that Blu-Ray has worldwide acceptance based on PS3 alone and these statistical numbers that Sony is using in their advantage will melt away like everything else in the upcoming months.