Retailers see format war dragging on

[ahhell]

And that's obviously your problem.

I guess I have the same problem then. Please elaborate.

[theyarecomingforyou]

And that's obviously your problem.

I'm sorry but I'm not a psychic. I visit plenty of gaming sites / forums but am not familiar with the XBLMP, it's content or how successful it is. You said that it was proof but didn't elaborate - therefore it was not "proof". You seem to have a real attitude problem when all I'm trying to do is clarify a point that you made. You should have just taken a bit of extra time explaining your point instead of having to respond later when people like myself and ahhell have problems understanding because of the lack of information.

[Coldgunner]

Content is not always king. XBox Live marketplace is proof. Now it has major studios supporting it like Warner, Fox, Disney and a bunch of network stations. If Toshiba manages to saturate the market quickly before loss of Warner becomes apparent from Q3, they can force them to come back.

XBLMP has only had movies for download outside of the US for a month, how can you say its popular?

boz, at first you did nothing but go on about HD-DVD's content over bd's, now you say content is not always important? make your mind up

[Boz]

XBLMP has only had movies for download outside of the US for a month, how can you say its popular?

boz, at first you did nothing but go on about HD-DVD's content over bd's, now you say content is not always important? make your mind up

Say what? I wish that people stop putting words in my mouth. When in the hell did I defend or discuss anything about HD DVDs advantage or lack of content?

From start I was always discussing HD DVDs superiority in hardware features and pricing. If anything Blu-Ray camp was the only one who was fanatically pointing out content importance. Not me.

And for you two who don't know what I'm talking about. When Xbox Live marketplace launched it had extremely poor content. It had some but it was far from satisfactory. With more people buying Xbox 360s and joining Xbox Live network content providers started coming in like Warner, Fox, Disney etc. They came in when enough user base was present.

Unlike situation with Xbox Video Marketplace, HD DVD even without Warner still has admirable amount of quality movies already released. It's far from the situation where Microsoft was when they started the Marketplace.

Everything I pointed out is plain business. When you have hardware user base, the content comes along by itself. After all they all want to make money.

[Boz]

Kosty one of the old time members AVS was in Vegas after the CES and talked directly to Toshiba's Jody Sally just before the official PR marketing announcement in press we saw earlier in this thread. This is the information he got from her.

HD A3 production is probably continuing full tilt at this moment , and there are 100,000s of units already built and in the pipeline. Retail orders for HD A3s are in place for 1Q 2008 that well exceed HD DVD sales for the 4Q 2007.

This pricing strategy was was probably meant for end of 1Q release, but changed because of the Warner announcement.

This is not a fire sale.

This is a direct Toshiba attempt to bypass the studio decision making and determine the outcome at the consumer and open market level and bring HD DVD economic advantages into the battle.

Specific strategy is to place HD DVD players as a market alternative to regular up converting DVD players where the last three years the average DVD player price sold in North America was between $102 and $106 according to the CEA.

In a one on one conversation with Jodi Sally on Wed, she told me specifically that based on the 4Q sales numbers "they knew what price points worked for mass market sales" and would price HD DVD units aggressively to go directly to consumers.

She also said Toshiba had that day approved a massive advertising campaign and that all retailers were still fully supportive and had not returned inventory or canceled 1st quarter orders. She told me I could not post that until the press release was on the wires.

I'm about to get back on a plane to leave Las Vegas and I've haven't read thru this thread because of meetings. So I really can't respond back until late late tonight or tomorrow.

Bottom line is Toshiba is not conceding but is fighting back and intending to take things direct to the consumer level, starting today.

We'll see how that works out soon enough.

[Coldgunner]

Say what? I wish that people stop putting words in my mouth. When in the hell did I defend or discuss anything about HD DVDs advantage or lack of content?

From start I was always discussing HD DVDs superiority in hardware features and pricing. If anything Blu-Ray camp was the only one who was fanatically pointing out content importance. Not me.

Harry Potter on HD DVD - Warner favors HD DVD version with features

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...t=0&start=0

for example

I cba to trawl through your previous threads, but namely the current vapourware tl51 discs (lets face it, they ain't gonna see light of day)

and going through some of you posts it just seems to be anti sony more than anti BDA

[Ayepecks]

Do you not see how this is a form of a threat?

If you really think I've been abusive towards you somewhere, then why not report it? Let the mods sort that out, that what they do: moderate.

When Sony runs BOGO's is completely irrelevant, because there's no way offering a BOGO could rationally be considered anti-competitive. So there's no reason for me to include that.

Honestly, you crack me up. I never threatened you and said I would do such a thing -- I said you're a hypocrite. And you are, so stop trying to dance around what I'm saying and misquote me to make yourself not look like you don't know what you're talking about (and you don't).

Why do I not report it? Because it's not a big deal. I only report posts I think need to be closed, or when someone resorts to name-calling and nothing else. I never said I was going to report it.

When sony runs a BOGO to skew the sales statistics for a big week, it is just that -- SKEWING THE RESULTS. Your whole point was that they don't do it. Now you're admitting that they do. I say again: stop talking out of your rear. I never once said it was anti-competitive, so yet again, stop putting words in my mouth and misquoting me. There's no reason for you to include it in what? Are you changing the conversation yet again?

Let me quote you -- and I'm being fair here and not misquoting you -- here is your entire post that sparked our argument:

See when HD DVD does this it's because it's "a better option for the consumer" but when Blu-Ray does it it's to "dump titles" in order to "skew marketing statistics". :rolleyes:

And, to be fair, here is my full response:

Please stop talking out of your bum. Given that whenever HD DVD had a major title released, Blu-Ray cut prices and had BOGO offers, I'm going to say that, yes, they were attempting to skew statistics.

I myself have never said HD DVD cut prices for consumers, but it is clear they're attempting to make an affordable format for customers. Do these cuts have to do with that? No, they're just trying to stay alive.

Thank you for admitting you're wrong.

[ctebah]

I really hope Sony and BDA end this soon, we are as close to ending this war as we ever were.

[Boz]

Harry Potter on HD DVD - Warner favors HD DVD version with features

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...t=0&start=0

for example

I cba to trawl through your previous threads, but namely the current vapourware tl51 discs (lets face it, they ain't gonna see light of day)

and going through some of you posts it just seems to be anti sony more than anti BDA

And your point again is?

Did you even read what we were discussing there or you are just posting for posting sake.

First of all, Harry Potter discussion was NOTHIGN about software advantage for one format. It was again about the superiority of HD DVD release over Blu-Ray which compliments the hardware and features superiority of HD DVD as a format.

Again, TL51 discs show potential with HD DVD beyond Blu-Ray. It has nothing to do with actual content on either format. It's the technical possibility of twin disc and more space on HD DVD. LOL at vaporware. TL 51 disc standard has been already APPROVED. Pioneer was specifically testing themselves the twin disc capability and Disney voted for the space and increase of bandwith benefit. Just because the disc is not used for movies as it was approved like 2 months ago doesn't make it vaporware.

And yes, I will yell and point out any anti-consumer behavior. It's not my fault that Sony and BDA are LOADED with it.

I really hope Sony and BDA end this soon, we are as close to ending this war as we ever were.

Oh you mean it's not over?

[ctebah]

you mean it's not over?

well contrary to what we both said, no it may not be over yet. come june 1st though, it is.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

And your point again is?

Did you even read what we were discussing there or you are just posting for posting sake.

First of all, Harry Potter discussion was NOTHIGN about software advantage for one format. It was again about the superiority of HD DVD release over Blu-Ray which compliments the hardware and features superiority of HD DVD as a format.

Again, TL51 discs show potential with HD DVD beyond Blu-Ray. It has nothing to do with actual content on either format. It's the technical possibility of twin disc and more space on HD DVD. LOL at vaporware. TL 51 disc standard has been already APPROVED. Pioneer was specifically testing themselves the twin disc capability and Disney voted for the space and increase of bandwith benefit. Just because the disc is not used for movies as it was approved like 2 months ago doesn't make it vaporware.

And yes, I will yell and point out any anti-consumer behavior. It's not my fault that Sony and BDA are LOADED with it.

Oh you mean it's not over?

Boz, you seem to think it's "not over" either. Now I don't really care if people want to believe something, but why are you calling someone else out for not thinking it's "over".

Being politically correct it isn't over, but being realistic it pretty much is.

I really think you invest too much of your time in this whole war, to the point where it must be noticeably wearing you down. Notice how I said "war", not HD-DVD, im specifically talking about your participation in the war discussion, not a format(s).

Have a break dude, seriously. It will do you the world of good. Things are outwith our hands now, leave it up to the other studios to make announcements.

I know you are passionate about HD-DVD, so fine, keep discussing it, but just step back a bit for your own health... that's all im saying.

This goes for others as well, who seem to make it a daily, if not an hourly task of coming here and screaming the same points over and over at the top of their lungs. Surely eventually, that's gotta affect your sanity? I know it has mine in the past.

[Coldgunner]

And your point again is?

Did you even read what we were discussing there or you are just posting for posting sake.

First of all, Harry Potter discussion was NOTHIGN about software advantage for one format. It was again about the superiority of HD DVD release over Blu-Ray which compliments the hardware and features superiority of HD DVD as a format.

Again, TL51 discs show potential with HD DVD beyond Blu-Ray. It has nothing to do with actual content on either format. It's the technical possibility of twin disc and more space on HD DVD. LOL at vaporware. TL 51 disc standard has been already APPROVED.

Just because 51gb discs has been approved, does not mean they'll get used.

DVD-14 was approved (dual layer, double sided, ~18gb), but we never saw any releases.

edit: apologies boz, I thought you mean't content as in features, not as in movies

Edited January 14, 2008 by Coldgunner

[draklin]

Boz, you seem to think it's "not over" either. Now I don't really care if people want to believe something, but why are you calling someone else out for not thinking it's "over".

Being politically correct it isn't over, but being realistic it pretty much is.

I really think you invest too much of your time in this whole war, to the point where it must be noticeably wearing you down. Notice how I said "war", not HD-DVD, im specifically talking about your participation in the war discussion, not a format(s).

Have a break dude, seriously. It will do you the world of good. Things are outwith our hands now, leave it up to the other studios to make announcements.

I know you are passionate about HD-DVD, so fine, keep discussing it, but just step back a bit for your own health... that's all im saying.

This goes for others as well, who seem to make it a daily, if not an hourly task of screaming the same points over and over at the top of their lungs.

Maybe we should ask to have all HD DVD and BD threads banned for a week or two to give everyone time to think of something else. Seems like it's an old married couple that just bicker over everything because they have just been together for too long.

[ctebah]

Maybe we should ask to have all HD DVD and BD threads banned for a week or two to give everyone time to think of something else. Seems like it's an old married couple that just bicker over everything because they have just been together for too long.

or we have a subforum for all hd-dvd vs blu-ray threads? that was people will know what to expect when they go there.

[Boz]

Boz, you seem to think it's "not over" either. Now I don't really care if people want to believe something, but why are you calling someone else out for not thinking it's "over".

Being politically correct it isn't over, but being realistic it pretty much is.

I really think you invest too much of your time in this whole war, to the point where it must be noticeably wearing you down. Notice how I said "war", not HD-DVD, im specifically talking about your participation in the war discussion, not a format(s).

Have a break dude, seriously. It will do you the world of good. Things are outwith our hands now, leave it up to the other studios to make announcements.

I know you are passionate about HD-DVD, so fine, keep discussing it, but just step back a bit for your own health... that's all im saying.

This goes for others as well, who seem to make it a daily, if not an hourly task of coming here and screaming the same points over and over at the top of their lungs. Surely eventually, that's gotta affect your sanity? I know it has mine in the past.

Audio, first of all I wasn't the one pouncing in every thread it was over and that people should get over it. He did. Thus, my statement.

Second, I am completely sane and I actaully dedicate much more time to my work and family, you know that things that count over format war. Why I post here is because I hate one-sidedness and misleading information. When someone says Blu-Ray is better, it's not. Simple as that. When someone says it outsold HD DVD because consumers chose while refusing to mention that half off and giveaway sales were done all year long week after week then I have problem with that. But that's not even an issue here, most of my posts consist of me somehow proving what i mean and what I said or trying to defend myself as a lot of people who are blu diehards are completely twisting my words, putting their own meanings as posting as I have said things like that etc in order to discredit me somehow. They went as far as equating me with Hitler etc.

This is why I participate. Also, what is wrong from posting news that HD DVD player is $129. You do realize that the only people who have problems with this are blu fans because they get afraid every time the price drops that Sony and BDA won't be able match them and that majority of mainstream consumers will buy it. This is what people have problems with and then I'm supposed to be going nuts? I've done nothing but straighten the incorrect claims or posted news from offical sources. What's wrong with that?

[Coldgunner]

or we have a subforum for all hd-dvd vs blu-ray threads? that was people will know what to expect when they go there.

suggested https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=613470

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Audio, first of all I wasn't the one pouncing in every thread it was over and that people should get over it. He did. Thus, my statement.

Second, I am completely sane and I actaully dedicate much more time to my work and family, you know that things that count over format war. Why I post here is because I hate one-sidedness and misleading information. When someone says Blu-Ray is better, it's not. Simple as that. When someone says it outsold HD DVD because consumers chose while refusing to mention that half off and giveaway sales were done all year long week after week then I have problem with that. But that's not even an issue here, most of my posts consist of me somehow proving what i mean and what I said or trying to defend myself as a lot of people who are blu diehards are completely twisting my words, putting their own meanings as posting as I have said things like that etc in order to discredit me somehow. They went as far as equating me with Hitler etc.

This is why I participate. Also, what is wrong from posting news that HD DVD player is $129. You do realize that the only people who have problems with this are blu fans because they get afraid every time the price drops that Sony and BDA won't be able match them and that majority of mainstream consumers will buy it. This is what people have problems with and then I'm supposed to be going nuts? I've done nothing but straighten the incorrect claims or posted news from offical sources. What's wrong with that?

See all this "assuming" what others are trying to say, or just wanting to take something and make it sound how you want it IS affecting you and others.

I'm not in any way telling you to stop posting about HD-DVD offers (thats one thing, that no one can say is wrong in anyway), im saying it's in your best interests to step back from the war from time to time and not reply directly to EVERY negative HD-DVD comment.

I used to trawl the GH thinking I could tell everyone how to participate respectfully, and recentely when I went bonkers at someone over ratings/saying my topics were flamebait, I realised how investing myself into my "cause" soo much caused me to overload.

Just have a timeout dude, you don't need to make it your mission to do anything. A lot of the negative flak you get, hitler comments, ect whether you will ever accept this, is partly down to the person you've managed to idolize yourself as on here - Whether intentionally or not.

You make it publicly clear you are very pro-HD-DVD and on the surface there is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs/stance, but just understand, others will look for weaknesses in people who are very determined to show their love for a specific product. The "others" I talk about obviously being those pro-"competitor product", or bluntly in this instance pro-Blu Ray.

I just think Neowin has gone war crazy just now. It's going to end up getting people warned/banned that on another day can be AAA members, contributing and having a good time.

[Coldgunner]

See all this "assuming" what others are trying to say, or

I used to trawl the GH thinking I could tell everyone how to participate respectfully, and recentely when I went bonkers at someone over ratings/saying my topics were flamebait, I realised how investing myself into my "cause" soo much caused me to overload.

shame really, your posts in GH were actually really good!

post #337 edited

Edited January 14, 2008 by Coldgunner

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

shame really, your posts in GH were actually really good!

Not to take this offtopic, whether or not you think I contributed well in the GH, I ended up on a 1 man mission to do something impossible/impractical and slighty unecessary.

Don't worry, that's my fav section, I'll be in there all the time, but I won't be addressing every single confrontational post like I was in the past.

A lot of things are best left unreplied to or reported (Y) No matter how tempting it is to go in, quote, and blast the person with your reply.

[shakey_snake]

here is your entire post that sparked our argument:

...and that comment of mine wasn't said in a vacuum either. It was in response to this post. I quoted your news article, but the response wasn't really aimed at you (and if you think about it, there's no reason it would be since you didn't actually say anything in that post)

But here we are 6 posts of complete over reaction and threats to report me and insults later... :argh:

I never once said it was anti-competitive, so yet again, stop putting words in my mouth and misquoting me. There's no reason for you to include it in what? Are you changing the conversation yet again?

Read the post my original point was responding to. you'll notice that in "the post that sparked our argument" (which really is a shame it just can't be a discussion) I quote phrases from post #304.

When sony runs a BOGO to skew the sales statistics for a big week, it is just that -- SKEWING THE RESULTS. Your whole point was that they don't do it. Now you're admitting that they do.

My whole point was that both sides put things on sale, but the Boz spin machine tends to put a different spin on things depending on the side that's lowering their prices. Edited January 14, 2008 by shakey_snake

[Sheppard]

*edit* i should probably read the thread fully before i commented.

[theyarecomingforyou]

When Xbox Live marketplace launched it had extremely poor content. It had some but it was far from satisfactory. With more people buying Xbox 360s and joining Xbox Live network content providers started coming in like Warner, Fox, Disney etc. They came in when enough user base was present.

Unlike situation with Xbox Video Marketplace, HD DVD even without Warner still has admirable amount of quality movies already released. It's far from the situation where Microsoft was when they started the Marketplace.

That's great but it doesn't have much to do with the hi-def format war. That is a tertiary service on a console. People buy consoles primarily for the games, with XBLMP content being a bonus. It's different with HD-DVD because content is the primary selling point, not whether the players are cheap.

When someone says Blu-Ray is better, it's not. Simple as that.

Oh great, here we go again.

When someone says it outsold HD DVD because consumers chose while refusing to mention that half off and giveaway sales were done all year long week after week then I have problem with that.

Blu-ray outsold HD-DVD. HD-DVD also had promotions and also paid off studios. They're both bad and yet you single out Blu-ray? What a surprise.

most of my posts consist of me somehow proving what i mean

Actually, most of your posts consist of spurious points and huge bias. Heck, the second quote in this response demonstrates that you don't "prove" your point you simply state opinions as fact.

They went as far as equating me with Hitler etc.

How very dare you. One person, an individual, made an attack on you (that was promptly deleted and rightly so) and that's the fault of Blu-ray supporters? So if one priest abusing a child that means religion is to blame? Again you're twisting things. This is exactly why so many people are fed up of your posts on this subject.

You do realize that the only people who have problems with this are blu fans because they get afraid every time the price drops that Sony and BDA won't be able match them and that majority of mainstream consumers will buy it.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with HD-DVD players being cheap. I see it as a good thing because it keeps Blu-ray competing.

I've done nothing but straighten the incorrect claims or posted news from offical sources.

Actually, you've stated opinions as facts, not backed up your points, spread FUD and still you continue to do it even now. So while you make legitimate points your posts are filled with counter-productive and unsubstantiated "facts".

You're on a one man mission to try to save HD-DVD and all you're doing is annoying people and spreading the misinformation you're trying to stop from the Blu-ray side. You're your own worst enemy. I only have a mild interest in the format war (in so much as I want it to be over soon rather than holding off and continuing to buy movies on DVD, a soon to be declining format) and yet I find I spend a lot of time refuting your posts as if I was some huge advocate of Blu-ray. I get most of my HD content through SkyHD and I don't imagine that will change anytime soon.

[Dogan]

You're on a one man mission to try to save HD-DVD and all you're doing is annoying people and spreading the misinformation you're trying to stop from the Blu-ray side. You're your own worst enemy. I only have a mild interest in the format war (in so much as I want it to be over soon rather than holding off and continuing to buy movies on DVD, a soon to be declining format) and yet I find I spend a lot of time refuting your posts as if I was some huge advocate of Blu-ray. I get most of my HD content through SkyHD and I don't imagine that will change anytime soon.

I feel the same way. I don't even have an interest in HD. Don't own a blu-ray player nor am I a fan of Sony.

Tbh, I couldn't care less about who won. However, when I see someone spreading misinformation, spamming about how great HD-DVD is and how Sony sucks, in EVERY single thread this person makes I get so frustrated that I feel like I should give the proper facts. Whether the facts are sales numbers or just countering the hd-dvd camps "facts" with real sources.

Boz has single-handedly alienated me and I guess a few more here, from even considering to buy HD-DVD players/media.

He is indeed is own worst enemy.