I will not buy Windows 7 unless it has ... *Feature*

[norseman]

This is a naive statement. There is no "are you sure" prompt involved with UAC. There is only the "Do you want to allow this program to run with administrator privileges" dialog. This has nothing to do with certainty. It's there to inform you that an application wants to run with admin privileges, and to give you the opportunity to stop that from happening.

They are far from pointless. They provide a better user experience and increased security over credential prompts like those in OSX (that ask you to verify the current users's password).

That's a multi-user scenario, I was referring to the common single-user admin scenario. In your case, you should lock your machine.

When the computer is put on the domain and the user has administrator privileges they still cannot install applications or erase system files unless they are a "domain admin". That is sometimes better or worse. For the user to install an application the "domain admins" must install it for the user which is a total nuisance. There must be an approach that works well for the admins and for the users..

[kiwi89]

.....I would like Microsoft to rethink the registry and come up with no registry or something better.

I see people saying things like this a lot so I might as well speak up. MS just cant cut out the resistry like that, what they need to do though is alter the registry in such a way that its easier to keep clean and in working order. It can be a pain but its not a simple matter of removing it and starting again - if they did that they would have to rewrite a lot of the OS.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

So it *is* a "conceivable way, then?

Unless you are adding in constraints? I thought that the situation I described is realistic, and I bet it happens an awful lot.

That is not the kind of security UAC is meant to provide. Basic physical access security is addressed by the locking feature (and lock on sleep / lid-close / screensaver / etc).

We are talking about an authenticated admin user being able to run applications in a least-privilege context. That is the UAC scenario. If the user is not an admin, then UAC doesn't apply, and instead you're dealing with LUA accounts which work differently by their nature.

If you're suggesting that every user should have two users accounts, then you're speaking in an entirely different context (a world of fantasy where the Linux user experience sacrifices are actually acceptable to normal people). Nevermind the fact that just such a model is just as vulnerable to spoofing and keylogging attacks.

[markwolfe Veteran]

In the case of a user/admin who must authenticate an operation to run at elevated privileges, a click isn't less secure than a password. That is, until you consider the human factor of tendency to just click "OK" where a password entry is a significant change from "click, click, click" so the user is not as likely to just click OK one more time. (although the screen transitions help visually distinguish that what is going on is different).

The real benefit of a password is for the real situation of a home user. Say, with kids.

If you are going to push all responsibility to the user to always lock the session when going pee or getting a glass of water, then I guess I can't discuss this any further. In your mind, UAC is flawless - the user ought to physically secure his/her PC better.

For me, the added security layer (yes, that is what it is) of prompting for a password is easy to do, and does effectively prevent unauthorized changes. As a father and family man, where my PC is available for any other family member to use (and they do have separate accounts, so they can 'switch user' to them), I find it silly to physically secure my machine behind locked doors, or even Win+L to lock it if the doorbell rings. The Linux solution works with me on this, where the Windows one requires extra steps to be performed by the user.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

In the case of a user/admin who must authenticate an operation to run at elevated privileges, a click isn't less secure than a password. That is, until you consider the human factor of tendency to just click "OK" where a password entry is a significant change from "click, click, click" so the user is not as likely to just click OK one more time. (although the screen transitions help visually distinguish that what is going on is different).

This is a fair criticism of the consent model, though the same can be applied to credential entry (with far worse consequences if you get used to typing your password in all the time, you're more likely to fall for spoofing attacks).

The real benefit of a password is for the real situation of a home user. Say, with kids.

Again, this doesn't really buy you anything. If your machine is running, logged in, and your kid comes over and starts bashing on your keyboard, they can still delete your precious user data. They can still send e-mails or IMs and do lots of other bad things. Parental controls, machine locking, and features like those are designed to deal with this problem. If you want to use UAC as a sort of parental control measure, then that's fine - you can set the option to use credential prompts instead of consent prompts.

That's a good argument for having the option, but it's not a good argument for making that the default on a billion computers.

If you are going to push all responsibility to the user to always lock the session when going pee or getting a glass of water, then I guess I can't discuss this any further. In your mind, UAC is flawless - the user ought to physically secure his/her PC better.

I never said UAC is flawless. You're assigning responsibilities to UAC that were not a part of its design. You're saying that UAC with consent prompts is bad for keeping your machine safe from kids while you're getting a drink. Fine, I'll agree. But it wasn't designed to be good at that, so you might as well complain that a Macbook isn't very good at toasting bread.

My point has been this: There are security advantages to using consent prompts over credential prompts for UAC and its intended function.

That doesn't have to mean there's a lack of security advantages to a different model.

For me, the added security layer (yes, that is what it is) of prompting for a password is easy to do, and does effectively prevent unauthorized changes. As a father and family man, where my PC is available for any other family member to use (and they do have separate accounts, so they can 'switch user' to them), I find it silly to physically secure my machine behind locked doors, or even Win+L to lock it if the doorbell rings. The Linux solution works with me on this, where the Windows one requires extra steps to be performed by the user.

Again, the Linux solution isn't really a solution. Maybe it will stop your kids from deleting system files, but it won't stop them from doing damage or abusing your account. What you're discussing is the physical security of your PC and the access security of your account/session (and data). Both of those are quite different from isolating application privileges between different processes on the same desktop and in the same user session.

[markwolfe Veteran]

^^^ And the prevention of damage to system configuration/files as I described is exactly the protection that a password provides.

To the user/admin him/herself, it really doesn't much matter one way or the other, except for the "hey, it's asking for a password, it must be a serious change" factor.

My point of view is that UAC could benefit from a password entry - even if just for family use, where kids and parents may share the same accounts. (I don't! I have separate kid accounts, but some families just use one account for everyone, and the password will prevent system corruption - not user data, admittedly).

But that's Microsoft's choice. And I think that I have adequately described my home situation (and likely the home computer use of many other users across the world), and that a password entry does have an advantage for system security at the local level.

Remote? Sure, if I am dumb enough to click OK to running an unknown app while downloading "HOTTNUDEMODEL.jpeg.EXE", then I would likely authorize it with a password. I don't think UAC or gksudo or such protect bad (and powerful admin-type) users from themselves.

EDIT:

P.S. I think we have taken this thread horribly off-topic with a single specific item, but it certainly has been a productive and interesting conversation handled factually and maturely, in my opinion.

[lammmetak]

Ditch the kernel. its even older then my grandma. Maybe then i reconsier but for that time me and windows wont be close:P

[markwolfe Veteran]

Ditch the kernel. its even older then my grandma. Maybe then i reconsier but for that time me and windows wont be close:P

Ummm... It gets constantly updated.

Linux, too, is technically on an old foundation, but gets constantly updated.

A total kernel dump and re-write would be kind of pointless (on either platform), I think.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

P.S. I think we have taken this thread horribly off-topic with a single specific item, but it certainly has been a productive and interesting conversation handled factually and maturely, in my opinion.

Agreed. And yeah, this should probably have gone in the Great UAC Debate thread :) I just like to point out to people that there are indeed security advantages to the consent model, as many people seem to assume it is automatically "less secure" than using a password. From some perspectives it might be, but from others it can in fact be "more secure."

I think the default was chosen to favor useability. Unfortunately, using consent prompts has the useability disadvantage of requiring the secure desktop switch to be completely secure. As with everything, trade-offs have to be made, and such trade-offs can always be revisited.

[ienhz]

I haven't kept up with all the Windows 7 stuff but do they plan on redesigning the GUI or are they basically leaving the Aero theme with a few modifications (ex: ribbon)?

[rdxg0d]

Ok I came up with this list originally for Barry Goffe and Chris Anderson, one of the PM's at MS in charge of Ultimate Extras, but it seems he's no longer in charge of that team. So maybe hey Brandon have a gander...hehe....And yea Im very very content with Vista x64 business runs solid no issues at all. But it would be nice to have something more robust with more features to compete with others in the game.

Here we go:

1. Microsoft Fabric from MS Research or Madotate.

2. Plugin to Add a drive in Explorer that is directly connected to Skydrive.

3. An IRC Client written in WPF

4. An SSH Client written in WPF

5. Plugin for Windows Live Photogallery to get Mantle view, Docked view, and Flip3D view.

6. Larger Live Previews for Documents, and Media files.

7. GUI written in WPF for Volume Shadow Copy

8. Give Powerusers Manpages on Powershell and how to write scripts to manipulate the system faster. (Instead of searching sites have it integrated into windows help and support)

9. Give users more documentation on how to create gadgets faster and easier. (Instead of searching sites have it integrated into windows help and support oh and make help and support look more like IIS7 manager. )

10. Lite Advanced Source Code Editor that has every feature imaginable from writing scripts for Powershell to having the right tools for writing code for gadgets. (For the people that dont want to install the Visual Studio packages, with restrictions of features of course.)

11. Scientific calculator that works for programmers, engineers, and statistical analysis.

12. Make a Live.com Community for developer collaboration, poweruser collaboration, and end user collaboration moderated by Head Program Managers to get a better perspective of what the Windows Userbase is really thinking. (An IRC Server with channels would be nice. Yes I know Technet, Channel9, on10.net but its an idea.)

13. Optimize the Windows Sidebar code. ( Seriously you guys botched on that one)

14. Dictionary, come on guys this is needed.

15. Systemwide spellchecker.

16. Give us some themes for Windows Media Player 11/12.

17. Have Microsoft hire the developer of Locate32. ( The Indexing engine in Vista is OK but needs work, I disabled it and use Locate32, its seemingly faster and instant, this is just something to look at)

18. Live Font Previews. (not really something that is in die or need but its nice to have )

19. Integrate a Notes System onto the desktop with Windows Calender and other Office applications. (Curently Im using Stickies and hott notes, as for hott notes only thing I like is that I can hide the notes and bring them back with a hotkey and get a blacked out screen with just the notes, I'd combine the stickies with hotkeys and a blackout screen like the one you get with a UAC warning whenever you use a hotkey, now that would be cool. )

20. Make a XPS Viewer App. ( Come on guys you can get this in easy)

21. Something I like to use alot lately is WikiPad, mainly to take notes and organize them. I know OneNote is great but lacks features. Have a look at WikiPad its just an idea.

22. Windows Error Log viewer with detailed views and explanations. (This would be for powerusers )

23. Integrate Windows Cardspace/User Account/Live/Hotmail and Auto-Complete system wide so when you have to input things there automatic. (Of course with Security in mind include a strict password and a 4 digit pin at logon of Windows if you want to use CardSpace, so if you want the Windows to know your going to login with CardSpace enabled at the login you'd input the 4 digit pin. Everytime there's a form to fill it'd be automatic and be inputted by the information provided when the CardSpace account was created.)

24. Hire the developers of CoreForce its a firewall based off of PF. ( Very robust firewall best of all its based on PF riddled with features.)

25. Screensaver maker. (This could be useful for students and presentations )

26. Themes for Windows DVD Maker. ( Or give us the tool to make the menu's ourselves.)

27. Plugins for Windows Movie Maker. ( You guys know you could've added a ton more features to this, its too bland.)

28. An integrated File Wiper, DOD compliant. (I know there's sdelete and cipher but it'd be nice to have it directly integrated into explorer or the recycle bin. )

30. TripleDES Encryption options for files. Or give us options.

31. Multi-Desktop support. (This should have been included already come on guys get with the program.)

32. Individual Powershell console written in WPF. ( Transparency would look hot here. Tabs would work too.)

33. Update DiskCleanup so it takes care of the winsxs folder.

[ViZioN]

Quite a few nice ideas in that list ^^ :)

[tuneslover]

I want following,

1. Built-in Archive Utilities which can open different format of archive files.

2. Built-in reg cleaner, Junk file cleaner.

3. PNG Icon support

4. Audio & Video converter

5. More beautiful GUI

6. WinFS

[-Hiroshi-]

They just keep doing what they're doing, Windows 7 is already shaping up to be an incredible OS.

[MMaster23]

If you let me, I'll comment on these :)

1. Microsoft Fabric from MS Research or Madotate.

I have no idea what this is.

http://research.microsoft.com/Research/dow...13/Details.aspx ??

2. Plugin to Add a drive in Explorer that is directly connected to Skydrive.

Connection to SkyDrive or Mesh would be great however this could get messy with antitrust.

3. An IRC Client written in WPF

Non-MS chat protocol won't happen. Also possible anti-trust isssues.

4. An SSH Client written in WPF

Non-MS admin protocol, won't happen.

5. Plugin for Windows Live Photogallery to get Mantle view, Docked view, and Flip3D view.

Ok, that would be awesome. However that's Windows Live and not Windows 7

6. Larger Live Previews for Documents, and Media files.

Even larger? You mean QuickLook style? Guess people would like that.

7. GUI written in WPF for Volume Shadow Copy

Why? The current GUI is enough for most? The UI should be more present tough however I would hate a 3D one like OSX TimeMachine.

8. Give Powerusers Manpages on Powershell and how to write scripts to manipulate the system faster. (Instead of searching sites have it integrated into windows help and support)

This depens on weither PS would be standard in Win7. Let's hope it is.

9. Give users more documentation on how to create gadgets faster and easier. (Instead of searching sites have it integrated into windows help and support oh and make help and support look more like IIS7 manager. )

There should be more info on MSDN.com you mean? It shouldn't be part of the OS itself as it is development work.

10. Lite Advanced Source Code Editor that has every feature imaginable from writing scripts for Powershell to having the right tools for writing code for gadgets. (For the people that dont want to install the Visual Studio packages, with restrictions of features of course.)

Again .. depends on PS being included or not. It would make a nice addiction to PS.

11. Scientific calculator that works for programmers, engineers, and statistical analysis.

I beleive we're getting this :D.. awesome.

12. Make a Live.com Community for developer collaboration, poweruser collaboration, and end user collaboration moderated by Head Program Managers to get a better perspective of what the Windows Userbase is really thinking. (An IRC Server with channels would be nice. Yes I know Technet, Channel9, on10.net but its an idea.)

Windows Live feature, not Win7. PM's should look into it of get executive reports from it. Not moderate it as that takes too much work. I don't think this will happen looking at the current workflow of MS teams.

13. Optimize the Windows Sidebar code. ( Seriously you guys botched on that one)

Agreed.. Lose JS in favor for something more secure and managed.

14. Dictionary, come on guys this is needed.

Hmm I see EU trouble with this one

15. Systemwide spellchecker.

Possible EU trouble again .. Bringing these features to the main OS itself, almost certainly locks out 3rd party software doing this.

16. Give us some themes for Windows Media Player 11/12.

Good idea :) ... almost 100% certain it won't happen tough.

17. Have Microsoft hire the developer of Locate32. ( The Indexing engine in Vista is OK but needs work, I disabled it and use Locate32, its seemingly faster and instant, this is just something to look at)

You mean cmdline based searching .. don't know about that.

18. Live Font Previews. (not really something that is in die or need but its nice to have )

+1

19. Integrate a Notes System onto the desktop with Windows Calender and other Office applications. (Curently Im using Stickies and hott notes, as for hott notes only thing I like is that I can hide the notes and bring them back with a hotkey and get a blacked out screen with just the notes, I'd combine the stickies with hotkeys and a blackout screen like the one you get with a UAC warning whenever you use a hotkey, now that would be cool. )

This feature would require some new standard framework for apps to hang on to. I don't think they'll go trough the hassle of all this.

20. Make a XPS Viewer App. ( Come on guys you can get this in easy)

You're getting this I believe..

21. Something I like to use alot lately is WikiPad, mainly to take notes and organize them. I know OneNote is great but lacks features. Have a look at WikiPad its just an idea.

I'm not sure what WikiPad has over OneNote but OneNote is very well featured. MS won't include this kinds of functionallity in the core OS itself as it's Office-specific work and would hurt OneNote sales.

22. Windows Error Log viewer with detailed views and explanations. (This would be for powerusers )

You already have this. Event viewer can tell you every little detail on your system.

23. Integrate Windows Cardspace/User Account/Live/Hotmail and Auto-Complete system wide so when you have to input things there automatic. (Of course with Security in mind include a strict password and a 4 digit pin at logon of Windows if you want to use CardSpace, so if you want the Windows to know your going to login with CardSpace enabled at the login you'd input the 4 digit pin. Everytime there's a form to fill it'd be automatic and be inputted by the information provided when the CardSpace account was created.)

They're trying to this with CardSpace but lacks operability. Problem lies with industry.

24. Hire the developers of CoreForce its a firewall based off of PF. ( Very robust firewall best of all its based on PF riddled with features.)

Don't know CoreForce so can't really comment on this one. The standard Vista firewall however is quite secure, fast and manageble (easy and advanced .. depending on user)

25. Screensaver maker. (This could be useful for students and presentations )

Hmm .. I'd like a new and more secure screensaver format. Not EXE's.

26. Themes for Windows DVD Maker. ( Or give us the tool to make the menu's ourselves.)

Not going to happen I think.

27. Plugins for Windows Movie Maker. ( You guys know you could've added a ton more features to this, its too bland.)

Not going to happen I think.

28. An integrated File Wiper, DOD compliant. (I know there's sdelete and cipher but it'd be nice to have it directly integrated into explorer or the recycle bin. )

+1

30. TripleDES Encryption options for files. Or give us options.

I believe you can set some options on EFS. EFS itself is quite secure.

31. Multi-Desktop support. (This should have been included already come on guys get with the program.)

They had a little powertoy for XP. I wonder however how many people would understand and use this feature. Some users have difficulty finding apps already. Don't bring multiple to them.

Altough I won't use, they could include it and activate it on demand (ala Spaces)

32. Individual Powershell console written in WPF. ( Transparency would look hot here. Tabs would work too.)

I believe there are some 3rd apps for this. I'm guessing you won't get this from MS.

33. Update DiskCleanup so it takes care of the winsxs folder.

WinSXS folder is managed by the OS itself I believe.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Lots of the first suggestions in this list are just apps or app features that Windows would already support. I'm not sure what having it in the box would gain people.

6. Larger Live Previews for Documents, and Media files.

Larger than what? Thumbnails can already get way larger than is practical. There's also the preview pane, which I'll agree should be made more accessible.

7. GUI written in WPF for Volume Shadow Copy

Why WPF? That is... why does the technology matter? Are you really just asking for a VSC UI with fancy graphics?

17. Have Microsoft hire the developer of Locate32. ( The Indexing engine in Vista is OK but needs work, I disabled it and use Locate32, its seemingly faster and instant, this is just something to look at)

Locate32 does about 1% of what Windows Search does. Hardly a worthwhile comparison.

[-Hiroshi-]

Brandon, your on the shell team I take it? If so, good stuff, keep up the good work man. :) (FYI, incase a dingleberry is asking, no I'm not brownnosing, or ass kissing or whatever, Windows 7 really DOES look good, just kinda wish Vista looked like that to begin with)

A lot of the features that kept me from buying 7 are now IN 7, for instance, big pet peeve, UI Unification, inclusion of the Ribbon interface on basic apps, the removal of various applications that I have not once opened since Windows ME, -coughMovieMakercough-, the ability to customize the installation prior to installation, something I deerly missed since the 9x days.

[Hungarian Salami]

Sorry guys but most of you are not technical literate enough to request OS features. So what you want and what you think is "cool" or "nice to have" is not relevant. This is not an entertainment product, the business is relaying on it and the end users are staying at the "end" of the line. If it was a video game, then its ok but it is not. No offence,

[-Hiroshi-]

Sorry guys but most of you are not technical literate enough to request OS features. So what you want and what you think is "cool" or "nice to have" is not relevant. This is not an entertainment product, the business is relaying on it and the end users are staying at the "end" of the line. If it was a video game, then its ok but it is not. No offence,

Well thats a pretty nasty elitist statement you just made.

[rdxg0d]

Hey, Brandon I should've put Embedded Live Previews (viewing whats inside a document or archive without opening it), as for the WPF, if I remember correctly Longhorn in build 4093 before it got rewritten was using WPF, something that looked fantastic, and now still hasnt been seen to date in Vista (as far as i know, I could be wrong), just wondering when the power of WPF and everything I keep seeing on Channel9 about all the new capabilities of the new .Net 3.5 are gonna be implemented into windows seems Windows 7 would be a good start.

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Continuum/WPFFX/

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Continuum/WPFFXDemo/

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Continuum/3...ControlsForWPF/

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Hey, Brandon I should've put Embedded Live Previews (viewing whats inside a document or archive without opening it)

Again, still not sure how this differs from large thumbnails or the preview pane?

[Denis W. Veteran]

Again, still not sure how this differs from large thumbnails or the preview pane?

I think he may be hinting at a hybrid of both, essentially a huge interactive icon for files.

This would work well with media files, but probably not documents.

Oh, let me throw in a suggestion: what about a 'super' tooltip that replaces the preview pane? So you click or hover over a file and a half-invisible box floats over the file, like the floating toolbar in Word 2007. You click on the box and it expands to a floating mini window which allows you to view the file's contents.

Ergh... this sounds too close to Quick Look. Then there will be more accusations of copying :pinch:

[ViperAFK]

Ditch the kernel. its even older then my grandma. Maybe then i reconsier but for that time me and windows wont be close:P

facepalm.jpg

[Denis W. Veteran]

Ditch the kernel. its even older then my grandma. Maybe then i reconsier but for that time me and windows wont be close:P

So your grandma's nineteen years old? AIII YAH!

[pasty2k2]

A few things.

For some reason in Vista, the Personal folder randomly changes it's view settings for me. I set the window size to how I want it (3 tiles wide), and after a few months, it'll randomly default back to a size that only allows 2. No matter what I do to it, after following many tweak guides and tips, it will not remember that I want it to be 3 wide - and sometimes it decides I want a different view altogether! Showing me thumbnails and lists. This is literally changing in seconds - open Personal, wrong, close, open Personal, totally different?

In WMP, it has a great feature that auto-sizes the columns based on how much information is being displayed to you. So if you have a long song name, it makes the track column wider so you may see the whole track name: Death Whispered a Lullaby, as opposed to something like this: Death Whispe... - Incorporate this into Explorer! At the moment, if you use a List view, it gives hardly any room for the Filename column, and loads of other space for less important stuff like File Last Accessed. If they can't do this, at least allow us to set a default size for all list views globally!

They could also get it to start a bit quicker - this can't be too hard. Currently as soon as you install your array of programs and drivers (and accompanying programs), your startup time skyrockets. I'm not talking about "seeing" the desktop, Im talking about your hard disk CPU and RAM calming down so you can actually do something. There's a setting for services in Vista, "Delayed Startup". Set this to on for all services, AND startup programs, that arent part of the OS by default. Only grant half the CPU/RAM/HDD access that it currently does, so as soon as the OS is started you can do something while the rest of your things finish loading. Can't be that hard!

Finally, it would be pretty nifty if they gave us a TABBED Explorer. They have done it with IE, now with Explorer please!

Edited October 16, 2008 by pasty2k2