Microsoft says no Blu-ray for Xbox 360

[Ricardo Gil]

:rolleyes: Microsoft isn't competing against the PS3, they're competing against Sony. Supporting Blu-Ray involves paying licensing fees to Sony.

And based on CES this year, Microsoft really thinks they can be the leader in the emerging market of online distribution. And if you look at the history of Microsoft, they're usually not wrong about emerging markets.

This is about Xbox360 vs. PS3, not MS vs Sony. If blu-ray starts taking off, they are probably going to support it externally, so that the PS3 doesn't get competitive advantage over them.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

This is about Xbox360 vs. PS3, not MS vs Sony. If blu-ray starts taking off, they are probably going to support it externally, so that the PS3 doesn't get competitive advantage over them.

Well for HD it's physical media (Blu Ray) or online distribution/downloading.

So yes, Blu Ray has already "taken off".

That is why you have some frustrated/confused people - Couple of weeks ago we had rumours practically saying an addon was a given, now MS are denying it.

They seem to be putting 95% of their eggs in the online distribution of HD content ( https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=625551 ).

We'll see how that goes, but I have very little confidence in physical media moving out the way for online distribution in the near-to-medium future.

[DrunkenMaster]

I think this might be an anti-piracy move. There's no denial that there are HD-DVD readers/burners on the market. But when supply is nil in a few years and the 360 is still alive and kicking, and some HD-DVDs drives are bound to have HW failures, it minimizes the available number of drives that can be used to pirate 360 games.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I think this might be an anti-piracy move. There's no denial that there are HD-DVD readers/burners on the market. But when supply is nil in a few years and the 360 is still alive and kicking, and some HD-DVDs drives are bound to have HW failures, it minimizes the available number of drives that can be used to pirate 360 games.

:huh:

360 games don't come on HD-DVD.

They are on DVDs, which were pirated early on in the 360 life-cycle.

[Kushan]

:rolleyes: Microsoft isn't competing against the PS3, they're competing against Sony. Supporting Blu-Ray involves paying licensing fees to Sony. As a company you compete against companies, not products.

And based on CES this year, Microsoft really thinks they can be the leader in the emerging market of online distribution. And if you look at the history of Microsoft, they're usually not wrong about emerging markets.

:rolleyes: Microsoft and Sony are huge companies that can't help but compete in certain fields, yet work together in others. Sony makes Vaio laptops, so are they wrong for paying Microsoft a license to use Windows?

Microsoft owns Rare, so are they wrong for letting them develop DS games, when the 360 is in direct competition with the Wii?

And I suppose Microsoft isn't going to support Blu-ray on windows, either? Oh wait, they already do.

[TruckWEB]

Another Win for Sony I guess.....

At least, the Sony is RROD free, much more robust as a game console and play Blu-Ray movies. But the selection of good games is still a huge + for the Xbox 360.

And add me to the list of people able to see the difference between Upscaled DVD and Blu-Ray movies. The only way to NOT see it is if you completely don't care about picture quality when watching a movie. If you're a huge fan of poor quality DivX Torrent stuff, then maybe Blu-Ray (or even HDTV) is not for you.

[spenser.d]

:rolleyes: Microsoft isn't competing against the PS3, they're competing against Sony. Supporting Blu-Ray involves paying licensing fees to Sony. As a company you compete against companies, not products.

I can't even begin to express how wrong you are. Companies do not necessarily compete against companies - they do more often compete against products. Sony and Microsoft have and will continue to collaborate on other projects (mostly to do with Windows software and such). They compete in the videogames industry. They do not compete in the format war.

Another great example: Sony and Toshiba compete(d) in the format war, but they collaborated hugely in making the Cell Processor.

-Spenser

[Kushan]

I can't even begin to express how wrong you are. Companies do not necessarily compete against companies - they do more often compete against products. Sony and Microsoft have and will continue to collaborate on other projects (mostly to do with Windows software and such). They compete in the videogames industry. They do not compete in the format war.

Another great example: Sony and Toshiba compete(d) in the format war, but they collaborated hugely in making the Cell Processor.

-Spenser

Exactly. Companies exist to make money and they'll do it whatever way they can. They're not going to miss out on an opportunity just because it involves working with a company that's competing with them in a completely unrelated field (Of course, there's exceptions to every rule, as is the case where Nintendo's pride got in the way of Goldeneye 360).

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Exactly. Companies exist to make money and they'll do it whatever way they can. They're not going to miss out on an opportunity just because it involves working with a company that's competing with them in a completely unrelated field (Of course, there's exceptions to every rule, as is the case where Nintendo's pride got in the way of Goldeneye 360).

Well MS shouldn't miss out on this opportunity, but it seems by CHOICE they will - Which is confusing many, as renting/downloading movies is NOT going to be market leader in the timescale MS seem to think. Or at least, it's a very safe assumption to make so I don't know who is making the analysis within MS on that one.

Sony on the other hand don't really "have an opportunity" in seeing MS gain Blu Ray.

It's the license fee vs the amount of PS3s that may be sold due to Blu Ray being exclusive to the PS3.

I think the later will earn them more money/sales so instead of it being a "pride" decision or a "we don't want our competitors having this" - It really is still a money decision in the end.

You sell off a huge part of your console that makes it attractive over a competitor, you run the risk of losing a lot of potential sales - So much, that as I said above, it could outweigh any licensing fee MS would need to pay to Sony/BDA.

However the other end of the scale is, MS would probably end up doing an addon. An addon isn't going to see the return in movie pickups per console an integrated drive would - Therefore the one off licensing fee might be a good lining for Sonys pocket and since MS are only offering an addon for the 360, not draw all that much of the thunder away from the PS3 being an integrated Blu Ray package.

Fun and games, and decisions with consequences... However it looks like we'll never see the impact as MS don't seem to want to buy into Blu Ray for the 360.

[Kushan]

I don't know, have you seen the American marketplace? (Create an American account and have a look) It's absolutely HUGE, they've got easily 20x more stuff than we do, if not more. Our selection is pretty dire, so it's doubtful it'll ever take off big here, but if they could push it to the level of the American one, they might just be on to something.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I don't know, have you seen the American marketplace? (Create an American account and have a look) It's absolutely HUGE, they've got easily 20x more stuff than we do, if not more. Our selection is pretty dire, so it's doubtful it'll ever take off big here, but if they could push it to the level of the American one, they might just be on to something.

Everyone in the world is at the mercy of ISPs though. You may live bang in the middle of a huge city and get a 24mb connection, or you may live in a town 10-15-20miles from your largest nearest city and get 2mb with a monthly download limit.

Add to that the fact that just now as far as im aware, the marketplace is rent only. It needs to become purchase and own if it is to even stand a chance against overturning physical media.

Then you have the transporation issue. Is it going to be possible to stick on a USB stick and take to your friends? Probably not for two reasons, size and secondly DRM.

Size because if MS offer the level of quality current MKVs offer, you're looking at 8GB + for a 1080p movie. Usually 4GB plus for a 720p movie.

I seriously doubt if MS allow movies to be bought and owned, they'll come without protection. Maybe you will be able to transport but you'll no doubt need to be signed into live on your account to watch on another 360.

None of any of these potential hiccups are presented with physical media.

That's why IMO for the forseeable future downloading/streaming is a supplement to owning a physical copy, that if you can take advantage of 1-0 you, but if not, well, buy a physical copy.

Rental services as others have said already exist for Blu Ray physical copies, so it's not as if you can really say renting then downloading is a massive plus.

I'm sure amazon will do what they do with their DVD rental system with Blu Ray eventually. My mum uses amazon DVD rentals and gets unlimited rentals per month for a fixed cost.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Audioboxer

[WelshBluebird]

Atm movies are rent only yeah. But TV shows, XBLA games and xbox orignals are buy to own. You can download them as much as you want, and onto as many consoles as you want (but after the first console you have to be connected to Live).

So I see no reason why MS couldn't hammer out a deal to buy to own in the future. They certainly have the money to.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Atm movies are rent only yeah. But TV shows, XBLA games and xbox orignals are buy to own. You can download them as much as you want, and onto as many consoles as you want (but after the first console you have to be connected to Live)

I know you own XBLA stuff :p

Didn't know that about TV shows though, at least you can keep them!

(but after the first console you have to be connected to Live)

Yeah I thought that.

[Kushan]

Everyone in the world is at the mercy of ISPs though. You may live bang in the middle of a huge city and get a 24mb connection, or you may live in a town 10-15-20miles from your largest nearest city and get 2mb with a monthly download limit.

Microsoft is already working with BT to bring OnDemand services to the household, what's to stop them doing the same with other ISP's so that it's not an issue? They can specifically mark marketplace content so it goes a lot faster (if possible) and doesn't count towards monthly usage, all for a small piece in the profit pie.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Microsoft is already working with BT to bring OnDemand services to the household, what's to stop them doing the same with other ISP's so that it's not an issue? They can specifically mark marketplace content so it goes a lot faster (if possible) and doesn't count towards monthly usage, all for a small piece in the profit pie.

You really expect MS to work with every other ISP in the UK?

Do you know how many of them there is?

Sorry, but I really doubt Marketplace is going to somehow be classed download limit "free" by every UK ISP - Especially if as I said movies are 8GB +.

Wishful thinking at best really :/

[sundayx Veteran]

Go HD-DVD! Win for sure!

[Kushan]

You really expect MS to work with every other ISP in the UK?

Do you know how many of them there is?

Sorry, but I really doubt Marketplace is going to somehow be classed download limit "free" by every UK ISP - Especially if as I said movies are 8GB +.

Wishful thinking at best really :/

Uhhh...why do they need to work with EVERY ISP? They just need to work with the big ones. BT and Virgin should cover 80% of the country, I'd imagine. Plus, when there's pure profit to be had, why WOULDN'T an ISP sign up to such a thing?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Uhhh...why do they need to work with EVERY ISP? They just need to work with the big ones. BT and Virgin should cover 80% of the country, I'd imagine. Plus, when there's pure profit to be had, why WOULDN'T an ISP sign up to such a thing?

The UK's network can't handle that kind of bandwith though. ISPs shape traffic as it is, and put siiiilly limits on some of their services. I've seen monthly download limits at 2/4/8GB.

How can you expect 80% of the country to now get a free pass to go wild and download double figure, if not triple figures of GB's of HD content?

We are discussing the potential for downloading to top physical media? - As that's what im discussing anyway.

I always said downloading HD content will be a supplement, it just won't, for the forseeable future be the main method.

Which is why I don't understand MS palming off Blu Ray. It's fair enough to say they provide games as their number 1 priority, but movies are obviously important as well or they wouldn't have the marketplace.

It's going to end up Sony offering a physical option and a marketplace alternative as well. MS should really just embrace Blu Ray, and realise that in 12-18m it's HIGHLY unlikely the majority will be downloading.

[WelshBluebird]

You really expect MS to work with every other ISP in the UK?

Do you know how many of them there is?

Sorry, but I really doubt Marketplace is going to somehow be classed download limit "free" by every UK ISP - Especially if as I said movies are 8GB +.

Wishful thinking at best really :/

Most ISP's are run through BT wholesale. So talking to BT would cover that.

Then you have easynet (who run Sky and UKonlines networks), O2 (for O2 and BE), CPW (for talk talk and AOL). Virgin

There's not that many of the big providers.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Most ISP's are run through BT wholesale. So talking to BT would cover that.

Then you have easynet (who run Sky and UKonlines networks), O2 (for O2 and BE), CPW (for talk talk and AOL). Virgin

There's not that many of the big providers.

Yes but what you could essentially have is BT crushing all the smaller ISPs that give a better service such as ADSL24, who im on.

I don't think BT are going to say, every ISP that uses BT wholesale can download everything free off of Marketplace.

BT are more likely to say, sign up with OUR broadband products if you want no limits on marketplace.

[Kushan]

The UK's network can't handle that kind of bandwith though. ISPs shape traffic as it is, and put siiiilly limits on some of their services. I've seen monthly download limits at 2/4/8GB.

How can you expect 80% of the country to now get a free pass to go wild and download double figure, if not triple figures of GB's of HD content?

Because it's NOT a free pass, everything in the marketplace has a price you know. And if ISP's got a slice of that price, they'd make damn sure that their networks CAN support it.

The only reason the UK's infrastructure "can't handle it" is because companies like BT do not want to pay to upgrade it. They haven't even switched to ADSL2+, that costs a lot more to them than it does to put traffic management on, then charge users extra for bigger monthly capacities.

That's, in effect, what the marketplace would do, you pay say 400points for a 300Mb show, 100 points goes to BT, which equates to about what, 25p? That's nearly ?1 per Gigabyte, that's not too shabby for them.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Because it's NOT a free pass, everything in the marketplace has a price you know. And if ISP's got a slice of that price, they'd make damn sure that their networks CAN support it.

The only reason the UK's infrastructure "can't handle it" is because companies like BT do not want to pay to upgrade it. They haven't even switched to ADSL2+, that costs a lot more to them than it does to put traffic management on, then charge users extra for bigger monthly capacities.

That's, in effect, what the marketplace would do, you pay say 400points for a 300Mb show, 100 points goes to BT, which equates to about what, 25p? That's nearly ?1 per Gigabyte, that's not too shabby for them.

I see where you're coming from, but I still say it's wishful thinking at the moment.

The infastructure still needs to be upgraded, houses with low speeds need to get high speeds, and the list goes on.

And MS seem to think all of this will happen in the next 12-18months?

Maybe once the next generation of consoles hit, downloading will be more in favour, but even then I can still see physical media leading the market.

That's why MS should be trying to get their hands in on it, but for whatever reason they seem to think it's best not to. They had no problem backing HD DVD back in the day, and if HD DVD won, they'd still be backing it - But now the only choice is Blu Ray, they are now claiming the marketplace is the only option needed?

You can bet the next xbox plays blu ray movies at least, whether or not it uses it for games is anyones guess, but it probably will as well unless a proprietary medium is used.

That's my guess anyway.

[Kushan]

The next xbox will definitely play Blu-ray films, that's a near certainty, but I also reckon it'll come with a 200Gb+ drive as standard for all the content they'll want you to download.

And I don't think the UK's infrastructure is anywhere as near as bad as some ISP's would like you to believe. I mean, my ISP isn't one of the bigger ones by a long shot, yet it can support 24Mbit 24hours a day? You mean to tell me they can do it, but Virgin/BT can't?

As crappy as Virgin is in places, at least they're constantly upgrading their network (They are going to offer 50Mbit services nationwide soon), although I think that's due more to fix what they broke than actually upgrade. If all ISP's did the same, everyone would really benefit. I think the main problem is that they've all had little reason to - most of their bandwidth is "wasted" on P2P (Virgin uses the same lines to pump TV down them, so I'm guessing that's the main reason they're so eager to upgrade), but if they started seeing more profits from more bandwidth usage, they'd all be wanting to upgrade.

I agree, though, that saying the next 12-18 months will see a big change is a bit mad, but then again, the average connection speed has doubled or tripled in the previous 18 months, so who knows what will happen in 2 or 3 years.

[WelshBluebird]

Yes but what you could essentially have is BT crushing all the smaller ISPs that give a better service such as ADSL24, who im on.

I don't think BT are going to say, every ISP that uses BT wholesale can download everything free off of Marketplace.

BT are more likely to say, sign up with OUR broadband products if you want no limits on marketplace.

BT wholesale and BT retail are two separate entities though.

Yes, they are run by the same company from above, but ofcom rules mean that BT wholesale have to treat BT retail the same as any other ISP.

I can't see XBLM stuff being exempt from download limits though, simply because it would cost too much money (ISP's are already struggling to cope), so unless MS pay a fair amount of money for the bandwidth that would be used, its not going to happen.

[ToneKnee]

Thus of all, not all homes have Xbox360's. Secondly, Microsoft could charge a little surcharge for bandwidth of each sale, this would help with the price of running high speed backbones with different ISP's. BT have **** loads of fibre that they can light up, they are just charging ISP's stupid amounts of money for using their different backbones. Now that they have big competition from Virgin Media and BeThere (O2 bought BeThere last year, but it is still BeThere's network), EasyNet etc. Competition will help drive down prices, and to get competition, you need someone big to push ISP's to buy bandwidth! :p