official Team Fortress 2

[lalalawawawa]

Finally. It was really strange seeing some people getting kills during the setup.

[Ayepecks]

"Removed health bonus from the Backburner"

Are you serious?! They're nerfing the Pyro completely after they had to boost him up because he sucked so much? Ugh. I probably won't play Pyro as much, honestly. They should have just taken and made it a +25 instead of +50.

@ Audio: 8 rockets? You mean 2, 3 max.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

"Removed health bonus from the Backburner"

Are you serious?! They're nerfing the Pyro completely after they had to boost him up because he sucked so much? Ugh. I probably won't play Pyro as much, honestly. They should have just taken and made it a +25 instead of +50.

@ Audio: 8 rockets? You mean 2, 3 max.

The pyro doesn't suck.

The backburner gives you constant crits from behind, which happens fairly often, especially as enemies tend to run away from a pyro. And pyros are one of the fastest characters.

+50 health was too much, pyros shouldn't be able to one man tank down an SG from running head on into it. If it's damaged maybe yeah, or if it's facing another way.

However since the update pyros have been overpopulated and slightly overpowered IMO :p

A pyro isn't a HWG, he's supposed to hide and surprise, not run head on into everything on the map including SGs.

Nobody else gets health boosts just new weapons that help out.

[Elliot B.]

Fixing the gate glitching = awesome!

No more demo spam/pyro flame before gates open.

And hooray for the backburner health being nerfed. It was taking like 8 rockets up close from a soldier to kill a pryo, coupled with pyros taking down sgs with ease without being ubered.

This mean no more crashing when the game exits? Nice (Y)

Also, I thought it was messy when the ragdolls appeared during team switches. Niec to see they've cleaned that up.

[Athernar]

The gate exploits still exist, a couple of guys from my community managed it on my server earlier.

And supposedly the RespawnRoomVisualiser (The Red no-entry sign on spawndoors) is partially broken as it allows grenades and stickies through, so if someone holds the door open you can be properly spawncamped, just thought i'd warn you guys.

Glad they fixed the death on round change though.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Athernar

[Elliot B.]

This mean no more crashing when the game exits? Nice (Y)

Also, I thought it was messy when the ragdolls appeared during team switches. Nice to see they've cleaned that up.

Nope I was wrong, still crashes :/

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

The gate exploits still exist, a couple of guys from my community managed it on my server earlier.

And supposedly the RespawnRoomVisualiser (The Red no-entry sign on spawndoors) is partially broken as it allows grenades and stickies through, so if someone holds the door open you can be properly spawncamping, just thought i'd warn you guys.

Glad they fixed the death on round change though.

What a complete epic fail.

Honestly Valve, put an invisible wall up over the gate until it opens.

HOW CAN IT BE THAT HARD? Developers usually love invisible walls in games...

Nope I was wrong, still crashes :/

:(

I still get the one random lockup during TF2, which freezes my screen for like 5-10 seconds then lets me continue playing.

Happens EVERY time* I play TF2, and it only happens once regardless of how many hours I play for.

* Well sometimes if I only play for 10-20 mins I don't get it.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

What a complete epic fail.

Honestly Valve, put an invisible wall up over the gate until it opens.

HOW CAN IT BE THAT HARD? Developers usually love invisible walls in games...

...

I think what happens, is that while the player can't get through, you can manoeuvre yourself so that your weapon is sticking through the gate in such a way that the origin of the bullets, fire, grenades (etc.) is through the gate.

This doesn't just apply to the gates though, I've seen a demoman fire grenades through a thin wall the same way.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I think what happens, is that while the player can't get through, you can manoeuvre yourself so that your weapon is sticking through the gate in such a way that the origin of the bullets, fire, grenades (etc.) is through the gate.

This doesn't just apply to the gates though, I've seen a demoman fire grenades through a thin wall the same way.

Yeah, I've seen it being done before, and graphically the weapon does not poke through the gate.

Maybe with the hit response system it's somehow registering through the gate, but in-game, in the real world, it isn't physically on the other side.

I must confess I have little knowledge of how hard it would be to fix this, but it just doesn't seem like it should be hard :p

[Hurmoth]

I love the fact that demomen and soldiers can no longer kill themselves and me not get any points. I play on a server that had them doing that when I was a pyro trying to kill them. Always ****ed me off.

[Ayepecks]

The pyro doesn't suck.

The backburner gives you constant crits from behind, which happens fairly often, especially as enemies tend to run away from a pyro. And pyros are one of the fastest characters.

+50 health was too much, pyros shouldn't be able to one man tank down an SG from running head on into it. If it's damaged maybe yeah, or if it's facing another way.

However since the update pyros have been overpopulated and slightly overpowered IMO :p

A pyro isn't a HWG, he's supposed to hide and surprise, not run head on into everything on the map including SGs.

Nobody else gets health boosts just new weapons that help out.

The Pyro doesn't suck, he's just unbalanced. Now we're back to square 1 where the Pyro was far less useful in comparison to other classes.

Pyros have always been one of the fastest characters because they constantly have to run away. That doesn't make it balanced -- they've always been like that.

Here's the problem: now the back burner is relatively useless. If you use it, you have almost no help whatsoever against soldiers and demos. You can't fire their projectiles back to them and you're a sitting duck if you're out in the open. This coupled with the fact that the back burner's ability to score crits is extremely touchy makes it a no-brainer to stick with the default. Try making your own server and spawning a ton of bots. Go behind them and check how many times the back burner works -- not many, surprisingly.

I agree that +50 was too much, but +0 now? Why didn't they just make it +25? Now if you have a back burner you have to camp the entire game and pray someone comes by you. You can't run the open as I already said, and you can't really do a lot.

Nobody else got a health boost because only one other class had a update -- the medic. And it received a weapon that boosted its health in another manner. Pyros couldn't take down a SG unless it was poorly placed. Stop over-exaggerating things like that and the 8 rockets :p

So now we're back to where it all began... the Pyro being barely ever played and being inferior to other classes. Sigh. This coming from a guy who's played the Pyro a crap load.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

The Pyro doesn't suck, he's just unbalanced. Now we're back to square 1 where the Pyro was far less useful in comparison to other classes.

Pyros have always been one of the fastest characters because they constantly have to run away. That doesn't make it balanced -- they've always been like that.

Here's the problem: now the back burner is relatively useless. If you use it, you have almost no help whatsoever against soldiers and demos. You can't fire their projectiles back to them and you're a sitting duck if you're out in the open. This coupled with the fact that the back burner's ability to score crits is extremely touchy makes it a no-brainer to stick with the default. Try making your own server and spawning a ton of bots. Go behind them and check how many times the back burner works -- not many, surprisingly.

I agree that +50 was too much, but +0 now? Why didn't they just make it +25? Now if you have a back burner you have to camp the entire game and pray someone comes by you. You can't run the open as I already said, and you can't really do a lot.

Nobody else got a health boost because only one other class had a update -- the medic. And it received a weapon that boosted its health in another manner. Pyros couldn't take down a SG unless it was poorly placed. Stop over-exaggerating things like that and the 8 rockets :p

So now we're back to where it all began... the Pyro being barely ever played and being inferior to other classes. Sigh. This coming from a guy who's played the Pyro a crap load.

I think you're over exaggerating.

When TF2 first came out, the Pyro was hailed to be far better balanced than TFC and he was played a lot more often. Now all of sudden because he has the health he started TF2 with he's unbalanced? :/

In case you haven't noticed the backburner is 100% crit rate. As a Pyro you're encouraged to hide and get behind enemy lines - Not charge face forwards all the time. Get behind someone and fire that backburner and they're going to die 8 or 9/10's if you don't suck as Pyro. As long as you don't run out to attack someone from behind who's being trailed by 3 of his team mates.

The Pyro is also essentially effective for spy checking.

So no, Pyro will not barely be played, but I can see how this patch will cause whining because people got to play with +50 health. If the health was never introduced, no one would have been moaning now.

The backburner is not a replacement or an upgrade as such for the main weapon, it's an addition to be used in certain circumstances depending on play style - Just like the crit uber certainly doesn't replace normal uber but can be effective in certain situations.

[D!ABOL!C]

In case you haven't noticed the backburner is 100% crit rate. As a Pyro you're encouraged to hide and get behind enemy lines - Not charge face forwards all the time. Get behind someone and fire that backburner and they're going to die 8 or 9/10's if you don't suck as Pyro. As long as you don't run out to attack someone from behind who's being trailed by 3 of his team mates.

In some instances, i've been straight behind someone, and I did not light them up with crits, the hit box is still glitched, like with the back stab. I can honestly say I only use the BB for the health boost. I think the AB on the normal thrower is far more beneficial especially when you can launch a heavy in the air as if it was a feather.

[mad_onion]

with all this talk of nerfing classes you could be forgiven for thinking that tf2 was an mmo.

[Ayepecks]

I think you're over exaggerating.

When TF2 first came out, the Pyro was hailed to be far better balanced than TFC and he was played a lot more often. Now all of sudden because he has the health he started TF2 with he's unbalanced? :/

In case you haven't noticed the backburner is 100% crit rate. As a Pyro you're encouraged to hide and get behind enemy lines - Not charge face forwards all the time. Get behind someone and fire that backburner and they're going to die 8 or 9/10's if you don't suck as Pyro. As long as you don't run out to attack someone from behind who's being trailed by 3 of his team mates.

The Pyro is also essentially effective for spy checking.

So no, Pyro will not barely be played, but I can see how this patch will cause whining because people got to play with +50 health. If the health was never introduced, no one would have been moaning now.

The backburner is not a replacement or an upgrade as such for the main weapon, it's an addition to be used in certain circumstances depending on play style - Just like the crit uber certainly doesn't replace normal uber but can be effective in certain situations.

Wait, what? In what dimension was the Pyro hailed as being balanced? :laugh: If you go to the Steam forums you will see literally dozens of threads about how the Pyro is weak and needs to be re-worked (referring to the beginning of Team Fortress 2 and up until the updates for Medic and Pyro). It's not "all of a sudden"... it's was always like that. I really think you need to go look at Steampowered's forums if you think otherwise.

The Pyro has been the weakest class since Team Fortress 2's launch and there have been many complaints about it in the community. While I agree that after playing a while it was obvious 50 was a little too much, to take it all the way back to 0 instead of 25 is ridiculous.

In case you haven't noticed, the back burner is only 100% in description only. Do what I told you if you don't believe me! This has been a massive complaint on the Steam forums for quite a while now. Please don't patronize me, as I don't suck as a Pyro. It's my second most played class, and my steam statistics will reflect that if you care to take a look.

Since when have Pyros been encouraged to hide behind enemy lines? And of course the Pyro is essential for spy checking... that doesn't make it balanced.

Just wait... soon the Pyro will be back to barely being played unless Valve fixes them. Mark my words.

[Athernar]

The Pyro is not underpowered now that Valve have removed the 50hp bonus.

The Backburner from the start was designed as a weapon to encourage ambushing, the task the Pyro is mainly designed for. However the 50HP bonus did the complete opposite, it encouraged Pyros to run in headfirst with W and Mouse1 taped down, it was counter-intuitive to the intended task of the unlock and unfair to those [Pyros] who did not have it.

The post-unlock Pyro has gained the following:

- Ability to split up Uber-pairs.

- Ability to reflect projectiles and clear stickybombs.

- Quickly kill a whole group of enemies with a well-executed rear ambush.

- Reduced falloff on the Blamethrower compared to pre-unlocks.

- Supposedly the Backburner now (post -50) has increased range over the standard Flamethrower.

I'm sorry, but if you still think the Pyro is underpowered despite having all the above, then in my opinion you're not playing the class properly.

[Ayepecks]

The backburner does not have increased range over the standard Flamethrower. Go check it yourself. The reduced falloff isn't much of a big deal because the falloff was way too wonky to begin with, hence why everyone on the Steam forums complained about it. As far as the extra abilities -- well, yes, if you use the standard flamethrower. The backburner does not have those abilities and the critical hit detection is a major issue because it doesn't work a great deal of the time.

Please don't patronize me about not playing the class properly. Here are my Steam statistics:

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Ayepecks/stats/TF2

Here are yours:

http://steamcommunity.com/id/athernar/stats/TF2

Clearly I know how to "[play] the class properly." Don't give me any garbage about not knowing what I'm doing.

[Athernar]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZxJYo_Q4I

I cannot find the SPUF thread on this as the Search feature is broken, but i think that video speaks for itself.

Secondly, if you want to start flinging around stats, take a look at this:

http://www.ather-tech.net/playerstats/roles.php

And

http://www.ather-tech.net/playerstats/weapons.php

I think those numbers prove that the Pyro is anything but underpowered, i think the (Reduced) Falloff reinstatement and the 50HP removal have evened things up nicely.

I do agree however that what is deemed as a back is rather broken for the backburner, but that is more a trend of the entire game more than anything else, i submit the case of the Spy.

Numerous times i've been facestabbed by a spy with a similar ping to me, and numerous times i have backstabbed someone for it to not register for some odd reason.

There is nothing wrong with the Pyro, the Flamethrower is fine, The backburner is fine even if admittedly it could do with the registration tweaking, not to mention the your stats prove the Pyro is more than capable of inflicting some severe damage.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Athernar

[Ayepecks]

I tried that little video's trick and it didn't work for me. I have a feeling there was something wrong with that video or the issue has been resolved. Either way, it doesn't work for me, plain and simple.

Your own server's statistics really do mean nothing, TBH. The overall Steam statistics mean something:

http://www.steampowe...2/tf2_stats.php

My stats don't prove a lot because I play the Pyro a ton. I would hope I'm decent at it after playing it so much.

If you take a look, you can see that people are still playing the Pyro a ton to get the new achievements, yet it isn't dominating as you claim it is. Sure it's doing well, but look at how far down the heavy and soldier play time is down compared to prior the Pyro update.

After I got used to the new update, I do agree that +50 was too much. But given the new secondary fire of the AB, I think the BB needs at least a +25 improvement.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Ayepecks

[Athernar]

There is a reason i said "supposedly", the video was an interesting tidbit of information, Valve have done stealth changes before, and it seemed plausible for the design of the weapon, but oh well.

Before i address your points however i would just like to additionally submit two items to the list of post-update gains:

- Flaregun; Longrange harrasment weapon, major threat to snipers and helps soften up players.

- Axetinguisher; One-hit melee kills on most classes, causes chaos when jumping in and lighting up a group. (Fairly Minor though)

Your own server's statistics really do mean nothing, TBH. The overall Steam statistics mean something:

To an extent i agree, it shows a nich? of the gameplay (Smaller server environment), but it does show that at an absolute scale the Pyro is not underpowered, and Valve's stats corroborate this.

If you take a look, you can see that people are still playing the Pyro a ton to get the new achievements

I totally disagree, the achievement rush is and has been over for a long time, the "hardcore" players have all the neccessary achievements be it through grind or achievement servers and even the casual players have the backburner.

Sure it's doing well, but look at how far down the heavy and soldier play time is down compared to prior the Pyro update.

Maybe because the Pyro is now balanced now, and the soldier-###### got a taste of the class and liked what they saw, not to mention the self-damage nerf on the soldiers that came with the Pyro Update.

After I got used to the new update, I do agree that +50 was too much. But given the new secondary fire of the AB, I think the BB needs at least a +25 improvement.

Healthboosts are counter-intuitive to the design task of the Backburner. If the Backburner needs anything then it's a registration fix and a uniform definition of what is someone's back in TF2, but that has been a long time coming for the Spy, a class who does not have the luxury of unlocks.

Valve may or may not change the Backburner but i can almost guarantee we've seen the end of the Heathboost.

Could the Backburner need a very slight tweak? Maybe.

Does the Backburner need it's registration/back definition smoothed out? Yes, and so does the spy.

Is the Pyro underpowered? Definately not.

[EnzoFX]

Ah, the Pyro has never been underpowered, the problem is that its probably the hardest class to play. You need patience and skill. It's got a learning curve, and obviously there's going to be a lot of posts on the steam forums complaining.

The pyro is not a directly offensive class, never intended to be, and it shouldn't have become one with it's health boost. People fail to understand that sneaking is probably the bulk of Pyro playtime. Furthermore, they don't grasp the concept of how effective it is to ignite a team. It throws them off, it disorganizes them. It's a disruptive class, not simply a killing machine, geez. Oh, and no one ever really plays with the concept of the flamethrower's residual damage. That is, you are suppose to damage, get away, come back, finish the job. It is pretty easy for the pyro to flee, it is one of the fastest classes (yet another thing ppl can't understand). Again, it was never intended to be a direct killing machine, and never should be. I think ppl just get impatient and go whine about it on forums asking for more brute force. It's a squad based game, and running away is sometimes necessary, among other indirect tactics the pryo is great at.

Lastly, rake a look at the unlockables, the backburner promotes its sneakyness, and the new axe promotes the "finish them off" aspect of the pyro's gameplay style, and the flare is a disruptor @ distance.

[Ayepecks]

The Pyro has never been underpowered? Again: I really think some of you need to visit the Steam forums more frequently. Until the Pyro got its update, almost every single topic regarding the Pyro was about how much it "sucked." After the update it's been a mix of topics, but yet, many agreed that the +50 was too much. Since this update, it's been a mix of this new update being good/bad. I have to agree with bad.

Here's the problem with some of the reasoning going on here: you guys are saying it's the hardest class to play, that it shouldn't be getting points, etc. I'm sorry, but if points are not meaningful, they wouldn't be in the game at all. Either they really need to change the way Pyro gets points or something else. And if a class is hard to play, what on earth is the point? Valve wants people playing all classes! That was the point of the update for the Pyro.

I'm sorry, but a Pyro's job is not to just burn people and be disruptive. It's meant to be a great asset to a team and help with offensive pushes and support the other classes. The whole reason for the flare was to give Pyros a weapon to be used at distance as it had no defense whatsoever against Snipers and long-range classes. Now it can flare the Sniper, making it harder to snipe.

Again, though, Enzo, please don't tell me what I do and don't understand. I'm a pretty decent Pyro as my statistics will suggest. You, however, according to your statistics, hardly ever play the Pyro. It's your least played class. Seems to me the only people happy with this update are those that never play the Pyro.

[DrewJW]

I have not played as long as some of you guys on TF2. I certainly never used the original TF.

Now I use Pyro purely for tactical, I tend to work with a good medic, and time my charge into the base with the uber ready to go, and using voice to time the application perfectly. If I have a good team * big IF at times * they often follow en-force, I find the pyro is not a standalone player, who can handle himself he is a player which either hangs back helping engineers build, ambushes the incoming forces, but with a good medic can become and offensive tool.

The removal of the 50HP just stopped the trigger happy pyro's which plagued each map, it was silly I could go in under uber, kill a lvl3 sentry a few guys. The uber would run out and I could easily unless under immense fire take down a few more guys before being took out, if not grab the intel and be on the bridge by the time I succumbed to enemy fire ( 2fort ) .

I think it was a good move and just wish they'd hurry up with the engineer upgrades.

[Athernar]

I really think some of you need to visit the Steam forums more frequently.

The same subforum that was full of people whining about how the engineer was overpowered? Hah, the SPUF is mostly full of fanboys and whiners.

You, however, according to your statistics, hardly ever play the Pyro. It's your least played class.

Just to add though, Spy is your least played class which is one of the main Pyro's "prey".

May i playing the flipside for awhile too? Just a suggestion.

I find the pyro is not a standalone player, who can handle himself he is a player which either hangs back helping engineers build, ambushes the incoming forces, but with a good medic can become and offensive tool.

Very true, even before the Pyro-update a Engineer/Defence-Pyro combo could lock down 2fort completely, and make dig-ins on Dustbowl/Etc much much harder to displace.

Ah, the Pyro has never been underpowered

That depends on your definition of underpowered, personally i think the class was erring to the side of underpowered and game-mechanic deprived, which they fixed with the lesser Falloff and Airblast.

P.S: It's nice to finally see a somewhat sensible discussion that isn't dominated by spam of "QQ more" and "L2P n00b" like the SPUF are.

[Ayepecks]

Sure, I'll admit it's full of whiners and fanboys. But the frequency of posts about how underpowered the Pyro was before the update says something. It was even mentioned in articles about the game on gaming sites.

And sure again, you can attack me for not playing the Spy. I'm more than willing to admit that I suck at playing Spy and it just really doesn't appeal to me. And, yes, it is annoying when Spies kill me.