official Team Fortress 2

[Ionium]

Sorry no engi cap here, only got a hot rod

[firey]

I didn't realize that this game was that in depth. I bought Orange box (with tf2) the day it came out. I would play a different class each time, I think engineers are awesome.

Build a dispenser, then build a sentry in a corner. Then just sit behind your sentry with the dispenser constantly healing you, and just sit there repairing/stocking your sentry. And usually you are golden.

I haven't played it in like 2 years though so it may have changed since haha.

I would do the thing I mentioned above when it was the final deathmatch where all re-stocking and such was locked (I would always play 2fort) where when you died you died. Because what I could do is make a dispenser that would give me mats, then I could uprank my turret all the way, whereas most people would do the opposite and only get a level 1 turret and nothing else.

[threetonesun]

Play what you enjoy. I like playing the Scout, and the heavy, and occasionally the spy, even if it usually gets me killed.

[Nagisan]

The latter. Playing an offensive class means a greater number of threats for the opposition to deal with; a bad Demoman spamming pipes all over the place might not get many kills, but the pipes will cause damage and force the enemy to fall back or move out the way. A bad Medic is just scorefodder.

Demo isn't....or at least shouldn't be an offensive class. A demo randomly spamming nades will do next to nothing to the enemy team, which is far less than what a bad medic will do for your team. At most, a demo randomly spamming nades will deter people from using that path, but smart players will push through while he is reloading or use a different path and do what they were going to do in the first place. A bad medic on the other hand will help keep you and others healed and on the front lines for longer than without a medic. So, what's better, a single bad demo randomly spamming nades, or 11 other potentially great players that are getting healed and overhealed to help push or defend and generally staying on the front lines longer due to 1 bad medic?

I would do the thing I mentioned above when it was the final deathmatch where all re-stocking and such was locked (I would always play 2fort) where when you died you died. Because what I could do is make a dispenser that would give me mats, then I could uprank my turret all the way, whereas most people would do the opposite and only get a level 1 turret and nothing else.

Engineers and medics both shine in sudden death. The medic to heal players who get hurt, and the engineer to both help heal and resupply players who need it. But sudden death matches don't tend to happen too often, usually mostly on hydro which many people vote away from anyway.

[Athernar]

Demo isn't....or at least shouldn't be an offensive class. A demo randomly spamming nades will do next to nothing to the enemy team, which is far less than what a bad medic will do for your team. At most, a demo randomly spamming nades will deter people from using that path, but smart players will push through while he is reloading or use a different path and do what they were going to do in the first place. A bad medic on the other hand will help keep you and others healed and on the front lines for longer than without a medic. So, what's better, a single bad demo randomly spamming nades, or 11 other potentially great players that are getting healed and overhealed to help push or defend and generally staying on the front lines longer due to 1 bad medic?

Uhh, Demo is probably the most offensive class in TF2. Ask any competitive player.

You're also assuming that a bad Medic will ever be able to stay alive for more than a few seconds before being ganked.

[Nagisan]

Uhh, Demo is probably the most offensive class in TF2. Ask any competitive player.

I know, but I'm saying he shouldn't be.....he is classified as a defensive class by Valve, for a defensive class, his offensive abilities are way too powerful. They need to either put the pyro as a defensive class (due to airblasts utility to deny projectiles) and the demo as offensive, or gimp the demo's offensive capabilities and revert him back to his original role.

You're also assuming that a bad Medic will ever be able to stay alive for more than a few seconds before being ganked.

That depends on how bad your team is, obviously a bad medic on a bad team is going to get ganked, but a bad medic on a good team is most likely going to at least be alerted to a spies presence before he is attacked. Sort of off topic, but spies are one of the weakest classes against a team with a few good players, their disguise is virtually useless all it does is make spies difficult to detect at a distance, and even then all it takes is a small amount of map knowledge to know a friendly pyro shouldn't be running out of a building behind the cart that is difficult to get to without passing the cart, for example. Basically saying spies will gank bad medics is like saying the entire enemy team is crappy, in which case it wouldn't matter what class a starter medic plays, he would die just as quickly as a soldier or demo as he would a medic if his entire team is bad.

[Minifig]

This could help you a lot. Meta is map knowledge.

Sniper and Demo should be reversed. Any idiot can hit something and kill it with a simple headshot, it takes real skill to bounce the demo's things where you need them.

As well as Scout and Spy should be reversed too because a good spy is damn hard to play.

[Denis W. Veteran]

[Threads merged]

[LingeringSoul]

Sniper and Demo should be reversed. Any idiot can hit something and kill it with a simple headshot, it takes real skill to bounce the demo's things where you need them.

As well as Scout and Spy should be reversed too because a good spy is damn hard to play.

Agreed on both counts. I'm always in awe whenever I see a really good Demoman player, just because of how tricky it can be to perform well with that class (at least from my experience, though maybe I just need more practice). In my eyes, a skilled demoman is far more impressive than a skilled sniper.

[Athernar]

I know, but I'm saying he shouldn't be.....he is classified as a defensive class by Valve, for a defensive class, his offensive abilities are way too powerful. They need to either put the pyro as a defensive class (due to airblasts utility to deny projectiles) and the demo as offensive, or gimp the demo's offensive capabilities and revert him back to his original role.

That depends on how bad your team is, obviously a bad medic on a bad team is going to get ganked, but a bad medic on a good team is most likely going to at least be alerted to a spies presence before he is attacked. Sort of off topic, but spies are one of the weakest classes against a team with a few good players, their disguise is virtually useless all it does is make spies difficult to detect at a distance, and even then all it takes is a small amount of map knowledge to know a friendly pyro shouldn't be running out of a building behind the cart that is difficult to get to without passing the cart, for example. Basically saying spies will gank bad medics is like saying the entire enemy team is crappy, in which case it wouldn't matter what class a starter medic plays, he would die just as quickly as a soldier or demo as he would a medic if his entire team is bad.

Demo is perfectly fine. Valve have made it clear that the role affiliation on the class selection screen is meaningless with weapons such as the Gunslinger. You might as well just throw everything out and start from scratch if you're going to take that approach.

A bad Medic on a good team is going to learn nothing; if his team is good enough to make up for his mistakes then the player is not going to be challenged to improve. A Medic's learning curve is him learning what to do and not to do to stay alive; it's a much better idea for a new player to get in and contribute to the push or assist in defense (Engineer is perfect for this).

[drbobiii]

Sniper and Demo should be reversed. Any idiot can hit something and kill it with a simple headshot, it takes real skill to bounce the demo's things where you need them.

As well as Scout and Spy should be reversed too because a good spy is damn hard to play.

Scout requires a lot more traditional FPS twitch aiming, hence skill. Spy requires a lot more map knowledge and intelligent play, hence meta. They are placed appropriately. The graph could have been labeled more clearly; just because something is on the 'skill' side doesn't mean it necessarily takes more skill to play. It just requires rapidly pulling off difficult maneuvers/shots. As opposed to developing a strategy and out-thinking your opponent. Physical skills vs mental skills, basically.

[Nagisan]

Sniper and Demo should be reversed. Any idiot can hit something and kill it with a simple headshot, it takes real skill to bounce the demo's things where you need them.

As well as Scout and Spy should be reversed too because a good spy is damn hard to play.

I actually think demo should be towards the bottom of the skill side (or at least lower than he is). Sure it is hard to effectively hit things with nades. But freaking stickies are so easy to use it's just retarded. I am a pretty bad demo, but I can get top 3 in most average pub games just by going demo and using stickies 90% of the time. The only weapon a demo has that requires any sort of skill is the nade launcher, but I suppose it has a pretty high skill ceiling as you are attempting to hit moving targets with a projectile that arcs.

Scout could be higher up on the skill side as well..soldier is really easy to play, and scouts movement speed combined with him being forced into close combat with only 125 health makes it really difficult at times. Though I suppose the scale isn't skill or meta only, I suppose it is both (which means the scout needs more Meta knowledge than the soldier, demo and sniper), which is true so he can ambush, hide, escape, etc.

That being said, it's funny how aim works.....I can play sniper for an entire round and get maybe 3-4 headshots (unless I get lucky.....I once got 3 headshots right out of the gate on gorge), then I can go scout and get snap shots where someone shoots me from the side and I turn and fire a single shot that kills them instantly in half a second. It's like I can't aim worth a crap with single-shot weapons, but you give me a shotgun and I can hit with 90% of the pellets in an instant. I guess my aim is just bad enough that I can't hit with a single bullet, but I hit with enough of a multi-bullet weapon to do good damage. I also tend to be halfway decent at tracking with a pistol though, I killed a sniper at medium range once (vs his SMG) with only my pistol while he had 2-3 other teammates around him he was trying to hide behind.

I think maybe it's the scouts speed compounding on my old-time UT and Quake playing, I was never a great player in either, but I did above average in both, the scout's speed just bring back that muscle memory or something (you move faster in both of those games than every class but the scout in TF2).

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

I actually think demo should be towards the bottom of the skill side (or at least lower than he is). Sure it is hard to effectively hit things with nades. But freaking stickies are so easy to use it's just retarded. I am a pretty bad demo, but I can get top 3 in most average pub games just by going demo and using stickies 90% of the time. The only weapon a demo has that requires any sort of skill is the nade launcher, but I suppose it has a pretty high skill ceiling as you are attempting to hit moving targets with a projectile that arcs.

...

I got the top spot on a server once just by stickying the intel and hiding in the right spot.

Pipes are harder as you have to aim them (Although still fairly easy if you can judge speed/distance/gravity*), but the sticky launcher is so useful most demos use it as their main weapon (since you can detonate the bombs mid air).

* My favourite kill as a demo was nailing a scout in the face while he was jumping, while I was below him on the last stage of dustbowl.

[Nagisan]

I got the top spot on a server once just by stickying the intel and hiding in the right spot.

Pipes are harder as you have to aim them (Although still fairly easy if you can judge speed/distance/gravity*), but the sticky launcher is so useful most demos use it as their main weapon (since you can detonate the bombs mid air).

* My favourite kill as a demo was nailing a scout in the face while he was jumping, while I was below him on the last stage of dustbowl.

Yeah, that's my point, sticky bombs are versatile and powerful enough to be the Demo's primary weapon, and almost any demo using them as such doesn't need much skill to be effective.

[Chasethebase Veteran]

Sniper and Demo should be reversed. Any idiot can hit something and kill it with a simple headshot, it takes real skill to bounce the demo's things where you need them.

As well as Scout and Spy should be reversed too because a good spy is damn hard to play.

Spy requires a lot more map knowledge, and outsmarting your opponents, as well as predicting movement patterns. Scout is just MEATSHOT MEATSHOT MEATSHOT...

Sniper and Demo should stay where they are for one reason alone, anyone can play those classes, but it takes more skill to do the following than aim your pipes well.

[Athernar]

Fragmovies are a really bad way to make a case for something being more skillful, all they are is over-edited clipshows assembled from the best of months of play.

I also don't get how aim and click is more skillful than having to properly aim and time pipes; Especially against rocket/sticky jumping players. (Proper jumps are a whole extra level of skill no other class has by the way)

Stickyspamming is only effective if the players you're going up against are rubbish, trying to stickyspam against a halfway decent competitive player and you won't last a second. Just like how W+M1 Pyros don't last a second versus any competant player.

[Nagisan]

Fragmovies are a really bad way to make a case for something being more skillful, all they are is over-edited clipshows assembled from the best of months of play.

I also don't get how aim and click is more skillful than having to properly aim and time pipes; Especially against rocket/sticky jumping players. (Proper jumps are a whole extra level of skill no other class has by the way)

Stickyspamming is only effective if the players you're going up against are rubbish, trying to stickyspam against a halfway decent competitive player and you won't last a second. Just like how W+M1 Pyros don't last a second versus any competant player.

I agree, frag vids are cool, but they are combinations of hours upon hours of play to make a single 10 minute video or however long. I also agree that aiming and timing pipes is much more difficult than sniping. Sniping is by no means easy (at least not for me), but predicting enemies movement patterns, firing at the right time, and relying on a projectile that may or may not hit the enemy even if aimed perfectly, takes more skill than aiming and firing at the right time with a weapon that always hits a target if your aim is good (with nades, your aim can be perfect but your enemy might move after you fire and it might miss).

As for stickyspam, the problem is you can hide behind your team and do it. Put a competitive player against a stickyspammer and of course the competitive player will win. But put a stickyspammer on a team against an enemy team, and he can be highly effective.

That being said, I just got done playing a bit, and a good example of how effective a demo can be, I just finished playing on a round where a good demo with a medic had an ending score of 145 or so, he was on the enemy team (from the team I was on), but my team won in the end.....the best player on my team had a score of only 92. Obviously he wasn't very useful to his team, as they still lost, but a single demo using mostly stickies (the 1 time he killed me he hit me with a nade, every other time I fought him he used stickies) got more kills than anyone else in the game, despite his team losing. In my opinion there's no reason a demo should easily be able to top a server unless he is helping his team out or playing crappy players.

[Athernar]

As for stickyspam, the problem is you can hide behind your team and do it. Put a competitive player against a stickyspammer and of course the competitive player will win. But put a stickyspammer on a team against an enemy team, and he can be highly effective.

That being said, I just got done playing a bit, and a good example of how effective a demo can be, I just finished playing on a round where a good demo with a medic had an ending score of 145 or so, he was on the enemy team (from the team I was on), but my team won in the end.....the best player on my team had a score of only 92. Obviously he wasn't very useful to his team, as they still lost, but a single demo using mostly stickies (the 1 time he killed me he hit me with a nade, every other time I fought him he used stickies) got more kills than anyone else in the game, despite his team losing. In my opinion there's no reason a demo should easily be able to top a server unless he is helping his team out or playing crappy players.

Stickyspam is only ever effective if you put yourself in a position to be killed by it. You can't hide behind your team because you need to be in the front lines to be able to reach.

I'm nowhere near being competitive level, but even I can easily destroy a stickyspammer as a Scout easily.

Your example also is somewhat flawed; Case in point: The fairly recent Valve + Pros + Pubbers highlander match, which saw two teams of a mix of the 3 groups go head-to-head in highlander mode. Jared Sol, the Spy on Robin's team completely carried the team and I'm pretty sure topscored too. Does this mean Spy should be nerfed?

[Nagisan]

Stickyspam is only ever effective if you put yourself in a position to be killed by it. You can't hide behind your team because you need to be in the front lines to be able to reach.

I'm nowhere near being competitive level, but even I can easily destroy a stickyspammer as a Scout easily.

Scouts are the most effective class against demo's, so obviously you can easily destroy a demo as a scout.....that alone doesn't mean sticky spam is not effective. Demo's can easily hide behind soldiers and heavies and what not and shoot stickies over their heads while putting themselves in little to no danger while doing so. Soldiers can almost do the same, but as their rockets shoot straight, it's much harder to hit enemies from behind your team mates.

Your example is worse then mine IMO, spies rely on tricking and deceiving their enemies, stickyspam demo's can hide behind their team and still virtually top the servers without putting themselves in harms way. A class that can easily hide behind others while still effectively attacking should not have that much offensive power. Spies have to put themselves in melee range while tricking their enemies while snipers have to aim much more accurately to do the same amount of damage 2-3 stickies can do from behind a wall of soldiers and heavies.....not to mention spies get double points for backstabs (which usually make up at least half their kills), so they don't need nearly as many kills to get the same end score as a demo, meaning while point-wise they might be equal to that of a demo, a spy at the top of a team doesn't mean he was the most effective player (same with a sniper at the top due to headshots getting 1.5 points).

EDIT: All you need to do is go into an average pub, go Demo, and see how high you get on the scoreboard. Then go spy, and see how high you get (if you want to compare them). Unless you are a much better spy than a demo, you won't get nearly as high.

That earlier game I was talking about (when I was talking about the enemy demo that scored high), I played demo for the first few rounds as well, I was around 3rd on my team and I suck at demo. I use stickies 90% of the time and hit things with direct hits from the nade launcher with maybe 10% of the nades I fire. Yet, as horrible as I am at demo, I was still one of the top players on the winning team.....and it wasn't just a 1 time occurrence. Any time I feel like stat whoring or getting stupid easy kills, I go demo.

My point is not that Demo is not necessarily hard to defeat, it's that demo can be extremely effective with little to no practice. The only class I score higher than I do as Demo, is soldier, but as a soldier I play much more aggressively (RJing into battle and what not). And thats with easily 5 times the amount of play time as pyro, scout and soldier (individually) than my playtime as Demo. Months ago I never really played Demo, and now I only somewhat rarely play demo seriously because it's just too easy at times. I like doing well and actually working to help my team, as a demo I can do extremely well completely ignoring my team and just going for kills and what not, which takes away from what makes TF2 so good (teamwork). I would honestly prefer if the demo had to rely on his team a bit more by reducing some of his direct combat abilities with the sticky launchers. I know die-hard demo's would whine about being nerfed, but as the demo stands he can just be too effective on his own. TF2 isn't supposed to be a solo play game, but other than scouts, a demo is probably the most effective class for someone playing on their own or not helping their team.

[Athernar]

Scouts are the most effective class against demo's, so obviously you can easily destroy a demo as a scout.....that alone doesn't mean sticky spam is not effective. Demo's can easily hide behind soldiers and heavies and what not and shoot stickies over their heads while putting themselves in little to no danger while doing so. Soldiers can almost do the same, but as their rockets shoot straight, it's much harder to hit enemies from behind your team mates.

Your example is worse then mine IMO, spies rely on tricking and deceiving their enemies, stickyspam demo's can hide behind their team and still virtually top the servers without putting themselves in harms way. A class that can easily hide behind others while still effectively attacking should not have that much offensive power. Spies have to put themselves in melee range while tricking their enemies while snipers have to aim much more accurately to do the same amount of damage 2-3 stickies can do from behind a wall of soldiers and heavies.....not to mention spies get double points for backstabs (which usually make up at least half their kills), so they don't need nearly as many kills to get the same end score as a demo, meaning while point-wise they might be equal to that of a demo, a spy at the top of a team doesn't mean he was the most effective player (same with a sniper at the top due to headshots getting 1.5 points).

You're not going to get anywhere "hiding" behind your team, not that "hiding" behind anyone on the front lines ever had any noticable effect in TF2 with the array of splash weapons (+ crits). A truly effective demo leads the charge. If you're honestly getting dominated by someone who is sitting out of range and lobbing in random stickies (Stickies have quite a sharp falloff too IIRC) you're not thinking about the situation and your positioning. Playing Demo like that will only ever net you a few lucky kills and assists of players just mindlessly running in.

Go watch the recording of the match if you really think that. Spy is a very effective class when played appropriately, which is nothing like your average pub spy that just sits in a corner waiting for an opportunity or runs around disguised solely trying for a backstab.

[Nagisan]

You're not going to get anywhere "hiding" behind your team, not that "hiding" behind anyone on the front lines ever had any noticable effect in TF2 with the array of splash weapons (+ crits). A truly effective demo leads the charge. If you're honestly getting dominated by someone who is sitting out of range and lobbing in random stickies (Stickies have quite a sharp falloff too IIRC) you're not thinking about the situation and your positioning. Playing Demo like that will only ever net you a few lucky kills and assists of players just mindlessly running in.

Go watch the recording of the match if you really think that. Spy is a very effective class when played appropriately, which is nothing like your average pub spy that just sits in a corner waiting for an opportunity or runs around disguised solely trying for a backstab.

I am aware that an effective demo leads the charge, my point is a demo can hide behind his team, while shooting bombs that do anywhere from 47 to 171 damage to any enemy close enough to take damage from the sticky. Not to mention they have a larger explosion radius than rockets do. At medium range, unless you are a scout, a single demo can virtually hit you with every sticky he fires due to their radius. It may take 4-5 stickies to kill you at that range, but if you get closer you will simply die faster. How many other weapons do nearly 50 or more damage at any range, are a controlled explosive, and have the largest explosive radius in the game?

Maybe it's just me, but the most effective spies I have seen are still usually no match to kill. I have seen spies top servers and annoy everyone on my team, but I still end up dominating them or at the very least killing them as much as they kill me. I even said something in a server where everyone was complaining about an enemy spy, the general response led to the spy getting teamswitched to our team, and him and I arguing a bit about how useless a spy is against a competent enemy. In short I was playing scout when he was against me and I killed him 3 or 4 times, he killed me once using ambassador headshots (he got 2-3 in a row, before he had only hit me with 1 or so before I killed him).

I am not saying he was as good as this spy you are talking about, but he was far above your average pub spy, he knew when to use his ranged weapons, when to retreat, etc. Most of the servers I play on rarely have the "average" pub spy as you call them that sit in a corner waiting, almost all of them use Dead Ringer or the stock cloak watch, and they are all equally easy to kill. But again, I'm the kind of player that watches for spies. For example, when I am at a dispenser healing I don't just stand around, I look around for friendly players coming from odd places and if I see one I spycheck them. Maybe it's because I am not your average pub player when it comes to awareness of surroundings, but even the best spies I have seen are at best an equal challenge to me no matter what class I'm playing.

Another note, a good spy doesn't always react when shot (since your teammates show no reaction to being shot 99% of the time), but even so I always shoot teammates I suspect of being a spy 2-3 with hits I am sure hit solid just in case. As such, I generally waste ammo, but because I do so, I saved a heavy medic combo yesterday from a spy that didn't even flinch when I shot him the first time, only to die on the follow up shot.

[Athernar]

I am aware that an effective demo leads the charge, my point is a demo can hide behind his team, while shooting bombs that do anywhere from 47 to 171 damage to any enemy close enough to take damage from the sticky. Not to mention they have a larger explosion radius than rockets do. At medium range, unless you are a scout, a single demo can virtually hit you with every sticky he fires due to their radius. It may take 4-5 stickies to kill you at that range, but if you get closer you will simply die faster. How many other weapons do nearly 50 or more damage at any range, are a controlled explosive, and have the largest explosive radius in the game?

You are seriously overstating the effect of such a tactic, you're not taking into account the victim's movement, damage range falloff or splash falloff. You seem to be painting a picture where a Demo can simply sit back out of harm and instantly lob an entire field of stickies into a sortie and blow the opposition away. Why would any player go with a Targelander loadout if Stickies were really as effective as you make them out to be?

The fact of the matter is, the Demo has been like he is for some time now; Valve have already put in place a sharp range falloff nerf in the past, and they've had ample time and chance to test/implement futher changes. Despite that, they've changed nothing. You're welcome to your opinions of course, but I'm just going to put it down to a decent player going up against a team of bad players that would likely walk into a glowing minefield of crit-stickies regardless.

[Nagisan]

You are seriously overstating the effect of such a tactic, you're not taking into account the victim's movement, damage range falloff or splash falloff. You seem to be painting a picture where a Demo can simply sit back out of harm and instantly lob an entire field of stickies into a sortie and blow the opposition away. Why would any player go with a Targelander loadout if Stickies were really as effective as you make them out to be?

Because not everyone likes to point ###### for no reason. I sometimes go targe demo just for something different, but I have honestly never seen a targe demo do as well as a sticky spam demo can do.

So, why would anyone go targelander? The same reason they would go YER spy, kritz medic, milkman scout, etc. To do something different beyond the original playstyle of the class. They don't go Targe because it's a good sidegrade to stickies, they go targe because they want a different playstyle.

[Chasethebase Veteran]

Oh yeah, I found a bug when using a 360 gamepad with TF2.

Try using the Chargin' Targe with it, and turning. You can turn normally while charging. Which is hilarious for coming around corners to unsuspecting enemies. :woot:

[Nagisan]

Oh yeah, I found a bug when using a 360 gamepad with TF2.

Try using the Chargin' Targe with it, and turning. You can turn normally while charging. Which is hilarious for coming around corners to unsuspecting enemies. :woot:

Odd, you used to be able to do the same thing using keybinds to turn (instead of mouse turning you bound a key to +turnleft and +turnright or whatever), they fixed it as it was an exploit, so don't expect using a gamepad to turn while charging to go unfixed.