Looking for advice for new rig build

[Kittamaru]

Aighty, first off:

1. What are your other components / What components are you planning on buying?

- I will list these ASAP

2. What's your budget?

- I'd like to stay below 2k if possible

3. What are you using your computer for?

- High performance gaming and/or 3d Modeling / mapping

4. What size is your monitor? To SLI or not to SLI?

- uhm... right now, 21" at 1440x900 , hoping to get a larger one eventually

5. When are you buying? Should I wait?!

- As soon as I can afford it

6. Are you overclocking?

- If I can learn how to do so correctly

7. Where do you plan on buying from?

- NewEgg.com, but if I find the same part cheaper I will buy there

8. Do you want any specific features?

- Looking to go water cooling if I can... it'd be my first attempt at it.

I will post my current build ASAP - just got home from work and I have a few things to get to now.

BTW - Hello! I'm new (postcount ++ lol) and saw this forum browsing for help on water cooling hardware.

My big issues are I will be building two rigs - one slightly more powerful than the other. The beefier one is for me, the lesser so for my fiance (who doesn't play the kind of high-pc need games I do), Her rig is the first build as I want to see if her PC can run well with air cooling. I plan to overclock mine to push it harder, which is why I want to go with liquid cooling. However, I don't know ANYTHING about liquid cooling, and will need a serious walkthrough on it... i get the CPU cooler, radiator, blah blah... but I don't get the way VGA and HD coolers, or ram coolers, or mosfets, NB's, SB's, etc work.

Anyway, i'll be back ASAP with the actual build.

[gwai lo]

You will get better help with water on xtremesystems, hardforum's wc forum, or anandtech's overclocking forum.

[Kittamaru]

1x ASUS 20X DVD?R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model DRW-2014L1T - Retail

Item #: N82E16827135156

1x Thermaltake Armor Series VA8003BWS Black Full Tower Case w/ 25CM Fan - Retail

Item #: N82E16811133021

1x Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (bare drive) - OEM

Item #: N82E16822136296

2x VisionTek 900241 Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail

Item #: N82E16814129112

1x ASUS Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model DVD-E818A2T - OEM

Item #: N82E16827135175

1x Thermaltake W0116RU 750W Complies with ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V version SLI Ready CrossFire Certified 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply - Retail Item #: N82E16817153038

1x Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound - OEM

Item #: N82E16835100007

1x OCZ Platinum 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model OCZ2P10664GK - Retail

Item #: N82E16820227298

1x ASUS RAMPAGE FORMULA LGA 775 Intel X48 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

Item #: N82E16813131284

1x Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 Yorkfield 2.83GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9550 - Retail

Item #: N82E16819115041

1x Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 English NA Upgrade DVD - Retail

Item #: N82E16832116474

1x Thermaltake CL-P0257 Blue orb II CPU Cooler for LGA775 & K8 - Retail

Item #: N82E16835106069

Current Price - 1,950 shipped

[gwai lo]

Get Western Digital's WD6400AAKS, or Seagate's 640GB hard drive if you like them better, considering what you're using them for..I'd say they'll match or beat the older Raptor. Plus they offer a *much* better $/GB.

X48 is too much, you don't need the dual x16 slots for Crossfire, nor does it consistently overclock any better than a P45. Soo..go with a P45.

I'd get the 4GB kit from G.Skill rated for DDR2-1000 on newegg. It should be around 80 dollars and you'll have a hard time breaking 500FSB with a quad, even if you do it's not like the sticks have a hard wall at 500 MHz and you'll probably be able to take them further.

Get the TX750 from buy.com unless you want the modular cabling. Otherwise, it's a better deal and they're both based on the same platform with rather similar performance.

I'm assuming this build is for you because it's rather high end. If so, why do you have an air cooler listed if you were going to go water?

[+PeterUK MVC]

All I say is wrong with it is the cooler is not much better then stock.

Also thats a Vista Upgrade DVD...but do go 64bit if you have a full copy of XP to Upgrade on.

[Kittamaru]

I have many copies of XP XD I have like, 3 different homes, a student, and two pros... go figure.

As for gwai - I'm not enirely sure what all those numbers are mate :p

That's actually her rig with a bit more kick to it. Her big thing is she wants to run Sims 3 with music in the background and PhotoShop running at the same time *shrugs*

Also - that's a Velociratpor, the 10k RPM 150 gig drive. The idea I have is give her that as her active drive (OS, games, and active drawing / music projects) and have the rest on a 1 terrabyte 7200 rpm WD drive as a simple storage drive. Gives her great speed and good space.

[Kittamaru]

BTW - as I said - her rig is less for gaming and more for graphic / media stuff.

My rig is more for gaming...

Would I be better off getting a high clock dual core for the gaming rig and simply OC'ing it to hell with a cooling system?

[gwai lo]

An overclocked quad will match a dual core in games. 3-3.2 GHz is where all chips top out and the GPU becomes the bottleneck. If you think a higher clocked dual core will outperform an overclocked quad core, then you're running your setup wrong and/or you think you can tell the difference between 100+ FPS and 100+ FPS.

Okay, which numbers are confusing? Here are some relevant equations to simplify things, examples in parenthesis.

Clock speed = Front Side Bus ? Multiplier (333 ? 8.5 = 2830.5)

Quad Pumped Front Side Bus = Front Side Bus ? 4 (1333 = 333 ? 4)

DDR2-XXXX

XXXX = Actual Frequency ? Two (DDR2-1000 = 500 ? 2)

PC2-YYYY

YYYY = Actual Frequency ? 16 (PC2-8500 ≈ 533 ? 16)

With the Intel platforms, the FSB is typically linked with the RAM. You can run your RAM faster than your FSB, but it doesn't show real world gains and ends up being an extra strain on your northbridge and RAM. Ideally, you just want to run a 1:1 ratio, as in whatever frequency your FSB is at, that's the same frequency you want your RAM to match it at.

As for that being her rig, why? I fail to see how demanding Sims 3 is on the GPU. So you want the extra power you say? Well, the video card is the fastest depreciating component in your computer right now. My advice is to buy what you need now and don't go overboard unless it's just a hobby thing (which doesn't seem like the case right now). If you need more power, drop money on a higher card later...but overspending now doesn't get you anywhere.

Photoshop running in the background wouldn't be a draw on the processor unless it was...doing something that would require processing power (I don't use photoshop that often so I don't have any idea what that could be). I can see running a large MATLAB code or video encoding taking a while and requiring lots of time to run in the background..but not Photoshop...so really please tell me more about this because I want to know. Not sarcasm, just more random knowledge to file away for later threads if the issue comes up again. If the program doesn't require processing power, I don't see a point in a high end quad either...an E8400 will pull off the job easily. If you want the quad anyway, just get the Q6600 unless Photoshop takes advantage of SSE4.1 instructions.

I can see how you may want a faster drive as a scratch disk, if so..then go ahead. However, I think you completely missed the point of why I suggested the WD6400AAKS..but since it's being used for a scratch disk go ahead. Also, if you're going to get a TB drive from WD, which one do you have in mind? The GP line all run at 5400RPM, which may not be a big deal to you, but unless they're a lot cheaper than Samsung's 1TB F1 Spinpoint, I would go with the Samsung drive. It's the same amount of space on a faster drive for the same (or less) money...most of the deals I've seen recently have been with the Samsung hard drives.

Next, why bother getting cooling at all if you're not overclocking her rig? If you are, then look at the Xigmatek S1283 or OCZ Vendetta 2 instead and lose the AS5, they come with decent enough thermal interface material. The effect of the heatsink on your temperatures will make a bigger difference than the TIM. This leads to the RAM, if you're not overclocking her rig, then don't get DDR2-1066. DDR2-800 would be completely fine for a stock rig, if you do plan on overclocking her rig then I'd lean again towards the DDR2-1000 for the same reason....breaking 500 FSB will not be doable on air. I'd actually take a chance and just go with DDR2-800, but you seem to have money to burn and chances are you'll be able to get over 400 FSB so you might as well eliminate one more variable.

So I'm guessing you like modular cabling and high end boards?

See what I'm doing is refining. Technically there isn't anything wrong with the build else PeterUK would've pointed it out. Just trying to bring you closer towards a build that will match the needs exactly, not too much nor too little. If you just like spending lots on stuff, then go ahead and just buy the thing.

[Kittamaru]

My problem is I've only ever built higher end rigs... and the last one I built was *cringes* almost 6 years ago... the PC I'm using now. It only just manages to squeak out new games at decent graphics, and "next gen" games (including EvE Online's high-graphics update) cause it to lag now and then... and there are some games I simply can't play at all (Supreme Commander).

How about this:

What brands would you recommend for:

RAM

MoBo

PSU

GPU (obviously in the ATI range, but what ATI brand)

HD

etc

[gwai lo]

Just giving you feedback on your initial build, we'll work with what you got.

Only suggestion on brand would be for the GPU, that being Visiontek for their warranty..but it comes at a slight cost.

[Kittamaru]

I don't know much about other brands... I don't really trust ASUS anymore (heard too many bad things), but I can't find another 775 socket board that has dual PCI-E x16 2.0 slots that can run x16 with cards in them.

[gwai lo]

Why do you want dual x16 bandwidth?

Also, judging based on brands == lose, people who had messed with hardware long enough can tell you. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there, I don't bother convincing people of it any more.

[+shift. MVC]

Read reviews. ASUS contrary to what you may think about them, is one of the better tier 1 hardware manufacturers out there.

[Kittamaru]

*smiles* I'm keeping an open mind on this - I've been out of the hardware race for the last five years.

The dual x16 2.0 is to take the best advantage of crossfire. If i"m putting down the cash for dual vid cards, I want to get my monies worth... and the cards say they run at 16x. Or isn't that true?

[bob_c_b]

Read reviews. ASUS contrary to what you may think about them, is one of the better tier 1 hardware manufacturers out there.

ASUS is somewhat inconsistent these days, but I would agree, ASUS or Gigabyte are my top 2 by far.

And I'll agree with another comment in this thread, the Tt coolers aren't that great, lots of better choices out there.

[gwai lo]

You don't need Crossfire unless you're running 25?16. If you're running a lower resolution, a single card solution will be able to handle it. If you want a dual card solution just because, then I'd suggest going with DFI's X38 board, it's cheaper and will get you the same thing.

[Kittamaru]

Well, if I want to go with a Gigabyte board for high-intensity gaming, what would you recommend? I want to go crossfire, dual channel 8 gig memory, a sound card... uhm... I hope to OC whatever CPU I go for to at least 3.0 ghz.

Yeah, I don't know too terribly much right now, sorry for seeming so incompetent.

Never used DFI and I heard they aren't very use friendly. How difficult are they to use?

BTW - should I go with a MoBo able to take DDR3 Ram? Is DDR3 worth it now, or will it be a worthwhile upgrade later on?

[Kittamaru]

GIGABYTE GA-EP45T-EXTREME LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard

How about that motherboard?

[gwai lo]

Motherboard does not have a bearing on what you do with your computer unless it relates to dual sockets or something.

DFI has lots of BIOS options so for most people they think it's overwhelming. Just because the options are there does not mean you *need* to tweak with them. The basic FSB, timings, and voltage controls are there.

DDR3 is not worth it for the current platform. It may be "affordable" not, but that does not mean it won't get cheaper later, plus it doesn't offer much in real world performance, so it's your call as to whether or not you want to drop money for nothing.

[Kittamaru]

OCZ Platinum 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

or

OCZ Platinum 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

For the higher end rig?

gwai, that's my question. What would the effects be? I know for my rig, i want to be able to run things like Spore, Crysis, HL2Ep3, Supreme Commander FA, and other high potency games maxed out and still get a decent framerate.

[gwai lo]

Overclocking to at least 3 GHz with a Q9550 only requires:

3000/8.5 ≈ 352.94 MHz

That falls in well under the 400 MHz offered by DDR2-800.

Since we're going in circles, here, we'll iron out the price checking later.

Your rig:

Q9550

4?2GB DDR2-800

WD6400AAKS

TX750

Asus P5Q Pro or Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3R

Couple of options for the video card depending on your monitor resolution

2550?1600 - 4870X2 or 2?4870 coupled with the DFI LT X38-T2R

1920?1200 - 4870 or GTX260 depending on the price

1680?1050 - 4850

Xigmatek S1283 or OCZ Vendetta 2

Your fiance's build:

E8400

2?2GB DDR2-800

WD6400AAKS

Samsung 1TB F1 Spinpoint

4850

TX750

[Papastr0umf]

hi there, been watching your conversation for a while. I'd go for the DDR2 solution. There wont be any effects, plus in my opinion, the only good use that ine could have out of DDR3 would be cause he/she want to overclock a rig to hell. 4gigs of fast 1066 DDR2 can easily do the job. As for the gfx card, if you want something that is high end you should go for a GTX280, but if you wanna stuck with ATI go for a 4870x2 if you want to be top notch. As for the CPU go for a 9450 or 9550, the price diff is little.

[chconline Veteran]

Read reviews. ASUS contrary to what you may think about them, is one of the better tier 1 hardware manufacturers out there.

Well I don't think many reviewers/any reviews actually taking into account the quality of a certain product. But I don't think it's possible to either as a reviewer myself, most reviews are pulled out in less than a month without everyday usage.

ASUS is somewhat inconsistent these days, but I would agree, ASUS or Gigabyte are my top 2 by far.

On one hand, with all the Asus mobos I got and bought, I've never had any problems. :p

[Kittamaru]

Oh, I see what you're talking about Gwai.

The Processor can't actually take advantage of faster ram basicly?

I'm not only here to get help... I want to learn :) Hence why I seem to be going in circles.

I guess what I should ask is this:

When choosing a MoBo/CPU/Ram (three things that seem intertwined) what should I consider? What limits the effect of higher ram speeds... obviously the FSB, but how does the CPU interact with it? Things like that are what I need to learn to build a good PC... and I can't find many good sites for information because so many of htem seem biased.

[Kittamaru]

Quick other question...

ATI Radeon HD 4870 X2 ... is that card worth the price tag? Would it serve my purposes better than two of the normal 4870's?