My Rant: 03/19/03

[Valkyre]

1: The United States made a huge mistake by publicizing the (previously) impending war on Iraq. The US should have setup covertly like they did in the Gulf War and supprised Saddam, making a quick and decisive victory.

2: The US needs to shut down it's borders and stop allowing people to come in. A complete and total lockdown. If not that, then lock down that requires an extensive legalization process for those wishing to come to the US, and I mean extensive.

3: Cut all foriegn aid. It's as simple as that. Do not give another dime to any other country on this planet! I am sick of the United States pouring money into all these countries that hate us. This also goes for helping any other nation militarily that is NOT our ally.

4: Flex our power. This does not mean killing people. A simple way would be blowing up enemy structures, or non-living objects. (If that makes any sense) Or how about this? Actually doing what we say we'll do and not bluff our way to diplomacy.

5: Start using the military weapons and aircraft we've developed. The F-22 Raptor needs to be used, excessively. The Harrier needs to be redesigned and brought back into service. And for the last time we need upgrade ground weapons for our soldiers!

6: People need to support our soldiers. I do not care if you are against the war, the soldiers do not have a say in what they do, they are ordered to do it, and they are the ones who are in danger of dying. If your pro-war, support them and wish them luck for a fast and decisive victory with minimal casualities. If your anti-war, support them and hope the war is over quickly and they all make it back alive.

/end rant

Your thoughts?

[redrope]

Brilliant points. I was just watching on MSNBC about how they may take the Mother Of All Bombs into Iraq and drop it in such a place that it will kill none or very few soldiers and/or civilians just so everyone will hear the explosion, see it, and recieve the concussion that it lets off. The main problem they said, and this is logical, is that Iraq will forever believe we dropped a nuclear bomb on them because of the small mushroom cloud that the bomb makes.

I also agree with discontinuing aid from other countries. Sure this war isnt over oil, but it may seem that way since we get so much oil from Iraq. In my mind, if we can develop all of these bombs that can pretty much destroy civilization, why not hire a team to develop a gas that can be made from recycleable products and natural growing products that can be used in todays cars? Sure we have the hydrogen cars and such, but it would be much better to have something totally natural. We would be helping civilization for once. I have never understood why they havent invested a lot of money in this. With this gas, we could end contacts with many countries that we are shelling out huge money to get products from, and then we eventually go to war with.

Another very good point that I think you made was about the support of the troops. There are so many ways that this can be done. I think a large misconception by many people around the world is that everyone supports what the government and what the government does. Thats totally untrue. Im not sure how many other countries have freedom of speech, but since we have it here and others dont, this may be difficult to understand. The troops in Iraq did not volunteer to go there. They did however volunteer for the army, and now get paid, but they didnt know they would have to go and fight in Iraq. They could oppose war just as much as anyone in America, but they have to do this because it is their job and they were ordered to. So why not support them. Im sure nearly everyone knows someone in the military, and you can tell they are just like you and me. They may want to fight, and they may not, but that is no reason to not support them in what they have to do.

Overall, great points Valkyre. Very well thought through, and very well written. :)

[DaBeeeenster]

Valkyre, I dont know where you were at the build up to the first gulf war, but it was not a covert strike by any means. The UN forces were building up in the region for MONTHS AND MONTHS. It took weeks of bombing before the ground assault started. It's just possible that, having been bombed for weeks and weeks, Saddam knew that a ground assault was imminent...

Point 4. Who do you define as the 'enemy' ? Given that American soil has not been attacked by a nation state since Pearl Harbour, what justification would you give? Or would you be happy just blowing stuff up? I mean, this seems so terminally short-sighted and naive it makes me laugh :D. What reason would you give? Nil points for replying "War on Terror" by the way. Nation states is the clue here.

Point 6. AFAIK there's no enforced conscription in the US. So the troops DO have a say in what they do; they have a say in being soldiers. If the order was given to rape all the women in a village, would you support it? If not, where do you draw the line? Or are you assuming that the troops would follow the Geneva convention? (Not that the ever have, of course, but you can always try cant you).

Actually, are you really Donald Rumsfeld and Ronald Reagans love child :D ???

These points make up the most absurd, short sighted, sickeningly agressive and disgusting standpoint I think I have read on these forums. Well done for saying what you believe in. Personally, I think you have a lot to learn in life, but that's just my point of view.

I think that if the US were to follow these points there would be an avalanche of terrorist attacks on US soil in the next few years.

Hint: You cant fight terrorists with planes and bombs.

[Valkyre]

Well at least the first reply wasn't idiotic! :D

Guess I'll have to wait for those kind of replies :p

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

1. I disagree. I don't like the idea of just attacking someone secretely, especially when they haven't attacked you first. Infact I think we still went to fast, and shouldn't have even had troops over there yet.

2. We could never truly close our border anyways, so it's pointless to suggest that, unless you wanna draft half the population, and once you do that, it ain't exactly America anymore is it?

3. Disagree to an extent. I think we need to be more strict in who we give it to, i. e., supposedly N. Korea is "Evil"(Bush's words not mine), yet we give them money and humanitarian aid, yet Iraq is also evil, and gets none. We need to be consistent with what we stand for, and apply to to all countries abroad, not picking and choosing.

4. There is almost no non-living structure. Fact is you don't build something unless you plan to occupy it. There is no such thing as "flexing muscle" without killing someone, anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

5. They are working on a new Harrier, it's the JSF, you gotta give them time to finish it you know. As to the Raptor, the B-2 and F-117 can easily do what it can do sans the dogfighting, so there's not a huge rush to replace or supplement these with the F-22.

6. Agree.

[Valkyre]

(A minor note, I'm not going to reply to this thread, so don't address me and look for a reply)

[DaBeeeenster]

Redrope, is your sig intentionally sarcastic or not?

[redrope]

DaBeeenster, are you intentionally an ###### or not?

[DaBeeeenster]

(A minor note, I'm not going to reply to this thread, so don't address me and look for a reply)

Unfortunately that further undermines the seriousness of your post. If you are not going to stand up to criticism and argue your points, what are their worth?

[DaBeeeenster]

DaBeeenster, are you intentionally an ###### or not?

Listen, you were the one with the peace sign and peace slogan in your sig. You are the one screaming like a hawk for destruction. I just wanted to point it out.

Funny how often you insult people when they show you up :whistle:

[redrope]

Yea, I put that there when I was against war. So I took it down. And I just insulted you because I have not once seen you say a nice thing to anyone anywhere. It is like your purpose here at Neowin is just to put down everyone because of your own political views.

[DaBeeeenster]

Yea, I put that there when I was against war. So I took it down. And I just insulted you because I have not once seen you say a nice thing to anyone anywhere. It is like your purpose here at Neowin is just to put down everyone because of your own political views.

Maybe because I have a different opinion from a lot of poeple here. Deal with it.

If you want people to be nice to you go to another forum. If you want to debate and argue with people, stay here. It's not got anything to do with "being nice".

Oh, and if you insult me once more (and admit to it) I'll be having words with the moderators...

[PezDspncr]

5: Start using the military weapons and aircraft we've developed. The F-22 Raptor needs to be used, excessively. The Harrier needs to be redesigned and brought back into service. And for the last time we need upgrade ground weapons for our soldiers!

already in the works....

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

One mean plane!! =)

[Deckhand]

I think the war plans, and talk about how our soldiers are going in and conducting their missions, as shown on CNN, is just a diversion. But, if Iraqi officials think like me... and they think it is a diversion, then they will expect the opposite. But... what if its diversion to make you think its a diversion, but its really not? I dunno.

But, I think most of the plans and intelligence shown on television is pshycologically screwing with Iraq.

[Callaway]

1: The United States made a huge mistake by publicizing the (previously) impending war on Iraq. The US should have setup covertly like they did in the Gulf War and supprised Saddam, making a quick and decisive victory.

2: The US needs to shut down it's borders and stop allowing people to come in. A complete and total lockdown. If not that, then lock down that requires an extensive legalization process for those wishing to come to the US, and I mean extensive.

3: Cut all foriegn aid. It's as simple as that. Do not give another dime to any other country on this planet! I am sick of the United States pouring money into all these countries that hate us. This also goes for helping any other nation militarily that is NOT our ally.

4: Flex our power. This does not mean killing people. A simple way would be blowing up enemy structures, or non-living objects. (If that makes any sense) Or how about this? Actually doing what we say we'll do and not bluff our way to diplomacy.

5: Start using the military weapons and aircraft we've developed. The F-22 Raptor needs to be used, excessively. The Harrier needs to be redesigned and brought back into service. And for the last time we need upgrade ground weapons for our soldiers!

6: People need to support our soldiers. I do not care if you are against the war, the soldiers do not have a say in what they do, they are ordered to do it, and they are the ones who are in danger of dying. If your pro-war, support them and wish them luck for a fast and decisive victory with minimal casualities. If your anti-war, support them and hope the war is over quickly and they all make it back alive.

/end rant

Your thoughts?

the amount of weapons, equipment, and resources needed to successfully complete a war do not allow for spur of the amount suprise attacks, unless you plan on using WMDs. once you break down enemy lines, hopefully you would want to fortify and reinforce those positions with your own equipment and troops. that takes time and those troops and equipment have to be in place nearby to do so quickly. given the vast size of the world, limited number of u.s. bases, it makes it extremely difficult, unless they're a neighboring country.

foreign aid is used for peaceful solutions to military operations and to help stabilize economy's. it's in the U.S. best intersest to continue to do so, even if that includes N.Korea.

the current state of the military will not be improved by extensively using the F-22 or redesigning the Harrier. The military starts first and foremost with the men and women, who are extemely underpaid and undersupported in many areas such as housing and clothing. many of our best air force pilots are leaving for the private sector, better pay and better working conditions. start from the bottom up, not the top down.

[mistical]

Valkyre,

2. I agree with you, we do need a lockdown. I believe if we went into red alert, this is one of the things that happens.

3. I agree almost fully with you, we should stop helping other countries, we NEED TO HELP OUR OWN. I'm not sure if this is true, but I think we give out more money to other countries than our own? I could be wrong, but, we need to help the people living in our OWN COUNTRY, before we help others in my own opinion.

6. I agree with you, I'm basically for war and such, I mean, I'd rather shag the country over if they are a threat, rather then wait till we get shagged and hurt and THAN go over them. Not everything can be negioated as we can see. Such as people like Saddam or Osama, their both crazy...

[Captain Hoagie]

1: The United States made a huge mistake by publicizing the (previously) impending war on Iraq. The US should have setup covertly like they did in the Gulf War and supprised Saddam, making a quick and decisive victory.

2: The US needs to shut down it's borders and stop allowing people to come in. A complete and total lockdown. If not that, then lock down that requires an extensive legalization process for those wishing to come to the US, and I mean extensive.

3: Cut all foriegn aid. It's as simple as that. Do not give another dime to any other country on this planet! I am sick of the United States pouring money into all these countries that hate us. This also goes for helping any other nation militarily that is NOT our ally.

4: Flex our power. This does not mean killing people. A simple way would be blowing up enemy structures, or non-living objects. (If that makes any sense) Or how about this? Actually doing what we say we'll do and not bluff our way to diplomacy.

5: Start using the military weapons and aircraft we've developed. The F-22 Raptor needs to be used, excessively. The Harrier needs to be redesigned and brought back into service. And for the last time we need upgrade ground weapons for our soldiers!

6: People need to support our soldiers. I do not care if you are against the war, the soldiers do not have a say in what they do, they are ordered to do it, and they are the ones who are in danger of dying. If your pro-war, support them and wish them luck for a fast and decisive victory with minimal casualities. If your anti-war, support them and hope the war is over quickly and they all make it back alive.

/end rant

Your thoughts?

I agree with a lot of your points, but aren't you being a little too radical?!?

1. Had we done this, we would have gotten a lot of sh*t from a lot more people. We took the initiative to speak with the U.N. in hopes of coming with a settlement to get rid of Saddam. Sadly, the U.N. failed and we had to take matters into our own hands.

2. Shut down its borders? I think this would only be necessary if we were at the highest terrorist level. Otherwise, it may seem like a good idea but it just would never happen - no matter who is president.

3. HUHHH??!? Cut all foreign trade? That's ridiculous - we wouldn't hold up too well, and neither would any other country. Besides, why cut out everybody when there is only one country in particular that really only needs to be cut off? That being, of course: FRANCE!

4. We are flexing power right now. It's called the war against terrorism in Afghanistan, and now in Iraq. Not to mention all the things we're doing right now in other Middle East countries trying to nab that SOB Osama.

5. I can't comment on this because I don't have an extensive knowledge on our military technologies. But I would assume we're taking full advantage of these technologies right now in Iraq.

6. I AGREE! Whether you want war or not, it's here. It's time for everyone to stop the anti-war crap and just support the soldiers.

Just my thoughts...

[Fotix]

6. I AGREE! Whether you want war or not, it's here. It's time for everyone to stop the anti-war crap and just support the soldiers.

It's not the soldiers that I do not support; it's their mission I do not support. It isn't their fault what they have to do. Besides, as a U.S. citizen they are paid with the public's tax money, so they have my monetary support.

[Captain Hoagie]

It's not the soldiers that I do not support; it's their mission I do not support. It isn't their fault what they have to do. Besides, as a U.S. citizen they are paid with the public's tax money, so they have my monetary support.

You missed my point. - or actually, overlooked it.

War is here. We're not going to leave unless something dramastic happens (hopefully not). You may not support what they are doing, but you should support them.

So in other words, you re-emphasized what I said. You just didn't read my words carefully enough. :D

[Fotix]

It's not the soldiers that I do not support; it's their mission I do not support.  It isn't their fault what they have to do.  Besides, as a U.S. citizen they are paid with the public's tax money, so they have my monetary support.

You missed my point. - or actually, overlooked it.

War is here. We're not going to leave unless something dramastic happens (hopefully not). You may not support what they are doing, but you should support them.

So in other words, you re-emphasized what I said. You just didn't read my words carefully enough. :D

What do you want me to do? Send them a postcard? A box of chocolate chip cookies? I have nothing against them. It's the war I am against and the people who ordered it. I will never waiver from that stance.

[Captain Hoagie]

I never said that you, in particular, weren't supporting them.

I am saying, however, that people should stop the anti-war movement because they ultimately failed. Its time for everybody to unite and do whats best for the country: wish the best for our soldiers and continue on with life.

[Fotix]

I never said that you, in particular, weren't supporting them.

I am saying, however, that people should stop the anti-war movement because they ultimately failed. Its time for everybody to unite and do whats best for the country: wish the best for our soldiers and continue on with life.

Of course I hope they live. :laugh: The best way to support the troops is what the anti-war movement is doing: To get them the hell out of there so they stay alive!

I just tired of other people on other forums saying that because we're at war we have to kiss George Bush's ass now. No way, not I, not ever.

Of course, that has nothing to do with you, but it's the general sentiment from pro-war nationalists on the net. :happy:

[Captain Hoagie]

I never said that you, in particular, weren't supporting them.

I am saying, however, that people should stop the anti-war movement because they ultimately failed.  Its time for everybody to unite and do whats best for the country: wish the best for our soldiers and continue on with life.

Of course I hope they live. :laugh: The best way to support the troops is what the anti-war movement is doing: To get them the hell out of there so they stay alive!

I just tired of other people on other forums saying that because we're at war we have to kiss George Bush's ass now. No way, not I, not ever.

Of course, that has nothing to do with you, but it's the general sentiment from pro-war nationalists on the net. :happy:

:rolleyes:

We agree on the same thing. (Except I'm not anti-war).

No, I did not say that you should kiss Bush's ass. Please don't put words in my mouth.

The anti-war movement is officially over. Nothing will help... if anything, it will only make the soldiers in Iraq feel useless. So lets take care of business and get this over with.

[Fotix]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I just tired of other people on other forums saying...

Of course, that has nothing to do with you...

I wrote those two lines above.

[Captain Hoagie]

I just tired of other people on other forums saying...

Of course, that has nothing to do with you...

I wrote those two lines above.

Sorry, my mistake.

Resolved.