[Official] Killzone 2

[Ricardo Gil]

Just a heads up but Sony have shot down the rumours of the DLC being free.

Segregation after all it seems.

Doesn't seem like a smart move. Drug dealing 101: get people hooked for free, then make them pay.

[Sethos]

Not surprising, there is about another 200 games to do Co-Op nowadays anyway.

What a lame excuse to just shrug it off :/

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

What a lame excuse to just shrug it off :/

How is it being shrugged off? They commented early on technically Co-Op would be a challenge. That's plain and simply obvious to people who aren't even developers seeing as it's the best looking console FPS out there - I think it might have taken a good chunk of time to create this engine you know? And no, cutting corners and downgrading visuals for Co-Op isn't the way they'd want to go, Killzone 2 made it's name on it's visuals ever since the E32005 target render - Hence the reason the multiplayer with 32 players also hardly looks much different from SP. People would have slated it far more for being visually average, than for lacking Co-Op.

Games have to be released and deadlines set, things have to be focussed on, not every single game can do every single feature.

There's other FPS games that focus on visuals/technicalities and plain and simply other things apart from Co-Op as well.

That wasn't an excuse it was a point to everyone whining as if they have no other options to do Co-Op with their friends. Go play some RE5, playing that game without Co-Op ain't exactly "amazing" :p

Anyway in some better news, here's something they can fix

Guerilla Games considering party system for Killzone 2 multiplayer

Hooray for Twitter, as it continues to be a great source for loads of interesting morsels of info on many games. This time Guerilla Games have thrown a few scraps to get excited about in regards to Killzone 2.

When questioned about the possibility of setting up a party system for the games multiplayer, to keep groups of people together as the action moves from map to map, the developer responded with good news.

“We’re investigating various possibilities for implementing a party system,” comments the tweet in reply to the rather interesting question.

Fantastic stuff in our opinion, as the lack of a party system is one the the few big problems many continually comment on in regards to the game.

Source: http://darkzero.co.uk/game-news/guerilla-g...-2-multiplayer/

Edited April 15, 2009 by Audioboxer

[Ricardo Gil]

How is it being shrugged off? They commented early on technically Co-Op would be a challenge.

Games have to be released and deadlines set, things have to be focussed on, not every single game can do every single feature.

There's other FPS games that focus on visuals/technicalities and plain and simply other things apart from Co-Op.

That wasn't an excuse it was a point to everyone whining as if they have no other options to do Co-Op with their friends.

Co-op isn't really a challenge. You just remove AI control from one of the characters and give it to a real player. It's no afternoon job, but it's relatively easy compared to other parts of the game. They just didn't think about it early on (co-op wasn't really big in '05 :p), and probably decided it wasn't a much needed feature.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Co-op isn't really a challenge. You just remove AI control from one of the characters and give it to a real player. It's no afternoon job, but it's relatively easy compared to other parts of the game. They just didn't think about it early on (co-op wasn't really big in '05 :p), and probably decided it wasn't a much needed feature.

When did you become a developer Ricardo? :p

I beg to differ, I know you've played Killzone 2, try outputting that twice in local mode and keeping the framerate stable at 30FPS. I doubt that's not a challenge. Unless you scale back all the graphics, but that leads us back to the point of Killzone 2 being the visual eye candy it is, that's one of the game's main selling points and the number one priority they had to reach to avoid a backlash of butthurt and crying gamers pointing at the target render.

This was said a while back

"Currently there are no plans for co-op in Killzone 2," said game director, Mathijs de Jonge. "Technically it would be quite difficult to implement it for the story mode as for example the mission sections are loaded in seamlessly – no loading screens , and that would cause issues with teleporting players. Even without co-op it’s still a big game and gamers will have plenty to sink their teeth into."

So no, I doubt they said it wasn't a needed feature, it's a nice feature to have as long as it ain't mandatory (IMO), but clearly the focus of the game was meeting the target render. That is why I find it hard to understand people saying "Co-Op should have been there". If there's one game with some genuine reasons to lack it this time around, I'd say Killzone 2 has a good shout.

[Ricardo Gil]

When did you become a developer Ricardo? :p

I beg to differ, I know you've played Killzone 2, try outputting that twice in local mode and keeping the framerate stable at 30FPS. I doubt that's not a challenge. Unless you scale back all the graphics, but that leads us back to the point of Killzone 2 being the visual eye candy it is, that's one of the game's main selling points and the number one priority they had to reach to avoid a backlash of butthurt and crying gamers pointing at the target render.

This was said a while back

So no, I doubt they said it wasn't a needed feature, it's a nice feature to have as long as it ain't mandatory (IMO), but clearly the focus of the game was meeting the target render. That is why I find it hard to understand people saying "Co-Op should have been there". If there's one game with some genuine reasons to lack it this time around, I'd say Killzone 2 has a good shout.

About 5 years ago. And I was talking about online co-op of course. It's definitely doable.

I'll say it again, I wasn't impressed with K2 graphics. If I'm to judge the game's graphics by its demo, then it's definitely not jaw dropping as expected.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

About 5 years ago. And I was talking about online co-op of course. It's definitely doable.

I'll say it again, I wasn't impressed with K2 graphics. If I'm to judge the game's graphics by its demo, then it's definitely not jaw dropping as expected.

What console FPS games look that much more impressive than it though? :blink: Not to mention there isn't a better looking MP component out there that supports 32 players.

So you haven't played the retail game? Guess that would restrict your viewing of it, there's some impressive stuff throughout the game.

Online Co-Op would still have the issue of warping they talk about above. The game just wasn't made to easily support Co-Op with the current revision of the engine.

[Ricardo Gil]

What console FPS games look that much more impressive than it though? :blink:

So you haven't played the retail game? Guess that would restrict your viewing of it, there's some impressive stuff throughout the game.

That's the thing, there's no considerable difference between K2 and current games. Neither for better or worse.

When I played it I was like "Is this it? Is this what everyone was talking about?".

Bad choice of level for the demo? Maybe. But that's their fault. When I have some free time I'll borrow it from a friend who bought it, who knows, maybe I'll be surprised somewhere in the game.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

That's the thing, there's no considerable difference between K2 and current games. Neither for better or worse.

When I played it I was like "Is this it? Is this what everyone was talking about?".

Bad choice of level for the demo? Maybe. But that's their fault. When I have some free time I'll borrow it from a friend who bought it, who knows, maybe I'll be surprised somewhere in the game.

No chance is that true :p

Try and get a full copy and play it, I'd be interested to see what you think afterwards!

Hype astronomically blew things up, but Killzone 2 most definitely stands as the best looking FPS game on consoles just now, by fair margin.

If you want to argue otherwise I want console FPS games listed that look similar, as it's only fair to give credit where due, this has nothing to do with console wars, just technicalities of an impressive looking engine.

I recommend you try and watch some of the developer interviews online. There's a good 40 minute technical walkthrough of Killzone 2 from a few months ago. Seeing as you are a developer, you should appreciate it.

[Ricardo Gil]

No chance is that true :p

Try and get a full copy and play it, I'd be interested to see what you think afterwards!

Hype astronomically blew things up, but Killzone 2 most definitely stands as the best looking FPS game on consoles just now, by fair margin.

If you want to argue otherwise I want console FPS games listed that look similar, as it's only fair to give credit where due, this has nothing to do with console wars, just technicalities of an impressive looking engine.

I recommend you try and watch some of the developer interviews online. There's a good 40 minute technical walkthrough of Killzone 2 from a few months ago. Seeing as you are a developer, you should appreciate it.

Well, it's what I can say based on the demo. Even my friend who bought K2 said he was more impressed with RE5 than K2. Maybe it's because of the lighting and art style, but in the end that's what makes a game look good, right?

Anyway, I still have FC2 and GTA:CW to play, when I get those done I'll borrow K2 from him and see what the full game offers.

And of course this has nothing to do with console wars. I bought all three because if I like a game I want to play it. I don't get my fun out of the hardware, I get it from games after all.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Well, it's what I can say based on the demo. Even my friend who bought K2 said he was more impressed with RE5 than K2. Maybe it's because of the lighting and art style, but in the end that's what makes a game look good, right?

Anyway, I still have FC2 and GTA:CW to play, when I get those done I'll borrow K2 from him and see what the full game offers.

And of course this has nothing to do with console wars. I bought all three because if I like a game I want to play it. I don't get my fun out of the hardware, I get it from games after all.

Actually if anything it's the lighting about Killzone 2 that is impressive as hell. The art style is very oppressive, I'll give you that, if you prefer lush jungles and/or something like Banjoo Kazooie I can see you being turned off it.

Textures in the game are still some of the best in the genre, but they certainly aren't like generations ahead of any other games. That is where the arguments of people trying to say KZ2 looks better than Crysis for example falls flat on it's face. Putting aside the fact people are trying to compare console and PC games in the first place...

Where as things like the lighting in KZ2 are pretty far ahead of other games in the same genre. Particle effects and what not are impressive as well, things like bullet casings, bullet tracers, sparks, explosions, smoke, depth of field, motion blur, etc, they generally all look fantastic.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Audioboxer

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

And of course it all comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day, just because you believe its the best looking game doesn't make it true!

I honestly don't think it looks as good as we were led to believe either and I too said "is that it?" after playing the demo.

Anyway, the game is what it is now, I think all current rumours are dead now so just enjoy the game :p

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

And of course it all comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day, just because you believe its the best looking game doesn't make it true!

I honestly don't think it looks as good as we were led to believe either and I too said "is that it?" after playing the demo.

Again, please start listing FPS games that look better if you're about to start criticizing my opinion. Your opinion is just "it isn't", nothing game wise to back it up. If you don't think it's technically the most impressive FPS game on consoles, then you have to think something else is better.

And no, it's not just me that thinks this, it's the majority of the gaming press as well. And DirtyLarry :p, I think, anyway, from his thoughts on the podcast.

Give credit where it's due, I have no doubts if KZ2 had came out on the 360 people would be lavishing praise on it's technicalities in just the same way, why? Because it deserves it.

[Sethos]

And then we need to start define our opinion of LOOKING GOOD, is it a game that consists of grey and black, everything is shrouded in blur and smoke for the most part or is it lush colours and vast terrains.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Because its useless to start listing games which you'll only bicker over and still continue to think KZ2 is the best looking. Nobody is gonna change your mind and I'm not about to waste my time even trying.

Any true gamer knows graphics aren't the most important thing when it comes to games, apparently GG didn't get the memo and that's why it ended up being such a mediocre game in the end. I haven't even played it since launch weekend cause I couldn't care less about it! I know plenty of others online and off who are the same.

And again, its all opinion, gaming press or Larry, it doesn't make it final. Especially when we've not seen the end of the generation. KZ2 will be over taken even for those people who believe its the best, no doubt KZ3 will be just one of the games to do it.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

And then we need to start define our opinion of LOOKING GOOD, is it a game that consists of grey and black, everything is shrouded in blur and smoke for the most part or is it lush colours and vast terrains.

Well go ahead then.

Everyone is keen to remind me of what my opinion is with no substance other than saying "it's your opinion". Start telling me what console FPS games you think are more impressive.

Technically I don't believe there is any yet.

Functionality wise, there's games that do more than KZ2.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

And no, it's not just me that thinks this, it's the majority of the gaming press as well. And DirtyLarry :p , I think, anyway, from his thoughts on the podcast.

Yeah, I definitely think it is overall the best looking console FPS, but that is because of what you said above... First it is the lighting, then the effects, etc. It is the sum of all it's parts.

With that said, I do think there are one or two better looking games, meaning I personally prefer the art direction a bit more.

Finally, I have been playing on my PC more than anything else lately, so I now feel all console games look pretty bad. :laugh:

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Because its useless to start listing games which you'll only bicker over and still continue to think KZ2 is the best looking. Nobody is gonna change your mind and I'm not about to waste my time even trying.

Any true gamer knows graphics aren't the most important thing when it comes to games, apparently GG didn't get the memo and that's why it ended up being such a mediocre game in the end. I haven't even played it since launch weekend cause I couldn't care less about it! I know plenty of others online and off who are the same.

And again, its all opinion, gaming press or Larry, it doesn't make it final. Especially when we've not seen the end of the generation. KZ2 will be over taken even for those people who believe its the best, no doubt KZ3 will be just one of the games to do it.

Haha good one, how is it useless?

You're keen to call out my opinion, then I challenge you to have a discussion about yours and you back away. I'm completely open to hearing what FPS games you think are better technically, honestly. Changing my mind isn't the point, letting me see what you think is.

Of course KZ2 will be overtaken, but what game isn't this early on?

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Its useless because we won't ever agree and we'll be 5 pages further in this topic with raised tempers and insults/flame wars kicking off. Do you really want the topic to be closed or give mods extra work? Even if we keep it respectable you know there is people on the side line just waiting to chip in.

Stop telling people its the best looking game is what I'm saying, you're going back to your old roots of pushing your opinion on others and it doesn't do you any favours.

[Sethos]

Well go ahead then.

Everyone is keen to remind me of what my opinion is with no substance other than saying "it's your opinion". Start telling me what console FPS games you think are more impressive.

Technically I don't believe there is any yet.

Functionality wise, there's games that do more than KZ2.

Bad Company

Grand Theft Auto 4

Ace Combat 6

Assassin's Creed

Just to name a few, is it because they have epic lighting, is it because they have super clear and crisp textures, is it because they are technical marvels? No. They are just presented overall better, all of them feature vast terrain and yet keeps a down to earth appearance. Killzone 2 looks good, yes, but there's WAY too much use of "Next-gen" technology to keep my marvelled. As I've said time and time again, too many confined spaces, scripted sequences, extremely boring colours and overuse of effects to 'hide' 2D effects and crappy textures, been a graphics ###### for too long not to notice these things.

Yes it may be pushing some boundaries but it isn't making my knickers moist.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Bad Company

Grand Theft Auto 4

Ace Combat 6

Assassin's Creed

Just to name a few, is it because they have epic lighting, is it because they have super clear and crisp textures, is it because they are technical marvels? No. They are just presented overall better, all of them feature vast terrain and yet keeps a down to earth appearance. Killzone 2 looks good, yes, but there's WAY too much use of "Next-gen" technology to keep my marvelled. As I've said time and time again, too many confined spaces, scripted sequences, extremely boring colours and overuse of effects to 'hide' 2D effects and crappy textures, been a graphics ###### for too long not to notice these things.

Fair enough, but from the start of this discussion we were talking console FPS games. You only listed one.

From a graphical point of view I can say Prince of Persia is more impressive, but when we start cross comparing genres it gets messy. People could just keep saying GTA4 forever, just due to scale.

Which is why I only ever said it was for me, the most impressive console FPS.

Its useless because we won't ever agree and we'll be 5 pages further in this topic with raised tempers and insults/flame wars kicking off. Do you really want the topic to be closed or give mods extra work? Even if we keep it respectable you know there is people on the side line just waiting to chip in.

Stop telling people its the best looking game is what I'm saying, you're going back to your old roots of pushing your opinion on others and it doesn't do you any favours.

Changing my mind isn't the point, letting me see what you think is.

If I'm not allowed to say it's the best looking console FPS game, then why are you allowed to say it isn't? :laugh:

We're both allowed to say what we want, all I was asking you to do was back up your opinions with some more substance for me.

[Sethos]

Fair enough, but from the start of this discussion we were talking console FPS games. You only listed one.

Well, it's not like the other genres have some sort of edge in the race to push boundaries, they are tied to the technical limit of the console as well - So I think it's fair to mention any console game.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Well, it's not like the other genres have some sort of edge in the race to push boundaries, they are tied to the technical limit of the console as well - So I think it's fair to mention any console game.

Fair enough, but see my edit.

I was only ever talking console FPS games from the start. I personally didn't want to start raking in other genres due to how technically different different genres are approached.

Such as scale vs texture work, realism vs cg/cartoony, etc. There's various trade offs needed in various genres, meaning certain genres are always going to beat other genres in specific areas. GTA4 is never going to have the texture work of Killzone 2/Gears of War for example, but Gears of War and Killzone 2 are never going to have GTA4 scale.

Keeping my opinion to FPS games meant I had a common ground - They all have the same field of vision, "similar" environments, similar amounts of enemy AI going on, etc.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

If I'm not allowed to say it's the best looking console FPS game, then why are you allowed to say it isn't? :laugh:

We're both allowed to say what we want, all I was asking you to do was back up your opinions with some more substance for me.

I never said you aren't allowed to have your say, I said you're pushing it on people and telling them its the best like its factual. Which is why I said this discussion is pointless because we'll never agree when it comes down to opinion.

Again in this topic you were discussing with Ricardo about co-op and you still shot down his claims, even after he told you he does work in the industry, and you were the one who had the cheek to talk about "armchair developers".

So yeah I'm done on this subject, it's not going anywhere (N)

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I never said you aren't allowed to have your say, I said you're pushing it on people and telling them its the best like its factual. Which is why I said this discussion is pointless because we'll never agree when it comes down to opinion.

Again in this topic you were discussing with Ricardo about co-op and you still shot down his claims, even after he told you he does work in the industry, and you were the one who had the cheek to talk about "armchair developers".

So yeah I'm done on this subject, it's not going anywhere (N)

If you read what I was saying to you I already said it's not about changing my mind so something being factual or not doesn't matter. The purpose of a debate/conversation is NEVER purposely to change someone's mind, it's to share your thoughts and then naturally someone else might change their mind. I just don't like people talking pot shots at my opinion without any substance other than "just because you say it is" or "it's just your opinion" or "stop saying things like fact". THOSE are the things that cause stupid bickering. Of course my opinion is a "fact" to me, it's what I believe in. Of course it can change though, everyone's can.

Clearly you have a differing opinion but saying those things isn't the way to show it, I already said explain your thoughts better about Killzone 2 as opposed to focussing on my opinion and tearing me a new one over it with back seat modding. No one was flaming early, or arguing, I'm not going to do that with any of you guys so chill out.

The only reason we go in circles is because I explain my opinion and it's met with "I don't agree". So I then go and try explain further and it's met with "So what, that's just your opinion, others disagree also". Okay so um... tell me why you don't agree? (Y)

Sethos gave it a go and I understand his points clearly. All I wanted to point out to him afterwards is why I didn't want to bring up other genres, but I accept what he's saying about scope/terrain/etc.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Audioboxer