Why does it have to be this painful

[Andre S. Veteran]

Anyhow, the OP's problem is solved. One apt-get and done.

Hahahaha. Yeah, solved. I'll get you a detailed comparative of "Vista - get the app on the publisher website" vs "Ubuntu - type a cryptic command requiring admin priviledges someone gave you on a forum" later tonight (or tomorrow, dunno if I can get the Ubuntu install finished in time :p ), with some hard, quantitative data. We'll see.

[brentaal]

As already stated, the "cryptic command requiring admin privileges someone gave you on a forum" has a graphical front-end called Synaptic.

[Andre S. Veteran]

All right, so let's see how an apt-get solves the issues I mentionned in my post. I created two virtual machines in Virtual Box, one with Vista SP1 and one with Ubuntu. For both machines, this is their first boot after installing the OS. They will run one after the other, starting with Vista.

============

Windows Vista

============

13:44 : Vista installation finished.

13:45 : Open IE7, search eclipse, click on third link, go to downloads, click big green arrow

13:46 : Save eclipse to disk.

13:51 : Download finished. Extract contents using default zip manager

14:01 : Double-click eclipse.exe. Oops, no JRE installed.

14:01 : Open IE7, search java, click first link, click big blue button. Click accept on two prompts, wait.

14:04 : Java is done installing. Double-click eclipse.exe. The program starts.

Total : 20 minutes. Should have taken 10, extracting a sub-100MB zip file usually takes under 12 seconds, can't really explain why it took 10 minutes. But anyway, benchmark result : 20 minutes.

Size of files downloaded :

Eclipse : about 80MB download, 105MB decompressed

Java run time : about 16MB download, 80MB decompressed

Total : about 96MB download, 185MB decompressed.

===========

Ubuntu

===========

14:52 : Ubuntu installation finished.

14:52 : Open terminal, type "sudo apt-get install eclipse", hit enter, provide password, hit enter.

15:00 : Downloading (2%)...

16:00 : Downloading (36%)...

17:00 : Downloading (70%)...

18:00 : Downloading (95%)...

18:16 : Installed. Click applications - programming - eclipse. The program starts.

Total : 3 hours 24 minutes. Holy what the crap.

...

Size of files downloaded:

Total : 246MB download, 596MB decompressed

So... I don't see how that addresses ANY of the issues I have mentioned. :ermm: It just pushes the nail deeper down. Should I be satisfied with the install process ? Man, I can't recall an install process EVER took that long on Windows. Even Visual Studio 2008 professional with all components. Even Matlab.

I'd MUCH, much rather have to "endure the hassle" of going to the publisher website and downloading from there, choosing the fastest mirror, than having to rely on a stupid "universal program installer" that takes hours to do its thing. But as I've said in my OP, that's what I first tried on Ubuntu, and I had no idea what to do with the .bin file you get to install the JRE.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Zapadlo]

You can hardly blame download speed on the OS, I get 600kb/s with Ubuntu's packet manager. And the supposedly long installation is down to the download speed and not the complexity, which I thought what this post was about.

[MR_Candyman]

You can hardly blame download speed on the OS, I get 600kb/s with Ubuntu's packet manager. And the supposedly long installation is down to the download speed and not the complexity, which I thought what this post was about.

Ya, really, he just shot himself in the foot there.

[Andre S. Veteran]

You can hardly blame download speed on the OS, I get 600kb/s with Ubuntu's packet manager. And the supposedly long installation is down to the download speed and not the complexity, which I thought what this post was about.

Ok, so it's not Ubuntu's fault if its own download manager can't provide me with a decent install time. What is it, my fault ? How do you suggest I install Eclipse on a fresh Ubuntu install without it taking 3 hours and a half ?

[Zapadlo]

www.eclipse.org

[Andre S. Veteran]

www.eclipse.org

www.youdidntreadthefirstpost.com

[Zapadlo]

What are we exactly arguing about, if you installed Eclipse fine from the website?

Also the slow download time might be down to the fact you were VMing Linux. As far as I am aware the experience is different with installed version.

[brentaal]

What mirror are you using for Ubuntu's update manager? Are you sure your connection was working alright at the time of the download?

I've never ever experienced trouble with any of their mirrors, and the download speed was always at the full capacity of my connection...

[-KJ]

I hear ya, Dr_Asik, but I think our familiarity of the Windows/Mac OS environments and the installation process by visiting a site and downloading an installer is what makes it all the more frustating.

I am not an advanced computer user by any means, and I tried Ubuntu out two to three years ago and I was lost as far as installing things went. You've pretty much explained the troubles a typical Windows/Mac user will experience. As a novice user with not much understanding of how Linux works (I still don't), I just wanted to visit a page, download an installer file, double click on it to install and run it; instead, I had to search on Google to understand how to install these 'strange' file types. You see, as a Windows user I was spoiled by double clicking on the .exe file to launch something, so this was all foreign to me.

Anyway, if Linux wants to keep their share of new users (most of which will probably have been Windows users), they should consider making the installation process more seamless, or at least have a little help message or prompt asking you if you're new to Linux (from there they can introduce the Synaptic Package Manger -- I guarantee you the average Joe will be totally clueless as to what this means), a little like how Windows have their help icons and pop up balloons to make it a user-friendly experience.

Perhaps they are a little more user-friendly now for previous Windows/Mac users. I haven't tried Ubuntu out recently but may try again.

[-Noah-]

Dr_Asik, I like how you think. When I first began to use Ubuntu, I had similar issues. I ended up discovering that there are so many things that should be presented to the user on first startup for a Linux user. I know that people like how the desktop is immediately presented to the user, nice and clean, but in the end, these things would help out so much. For example, Ubuntu should do this for you when you first get updates:

1. System -> Administration -> Software Sources.

2. Download from: Select "Other..."

3. "Select Best Server"

4. Let it find the best server for you.

5. Choose Server (the best server should be highlighted).

6. Close

Go through this process to get the best server for your location.

Edited March 4, 2009 by -Noah-

[Zapadlo]

You see, how about talking how to get netbeans to work with a c++ compiler? I remember wasting around 2 hours trying to set it up, finding a free compiler, then editing some system files then netbeans... Etc

While with Linux it only took one line in the terminal and point to it in Netbeans.

I believe some things are easier with Linux, for me personally most of the things are "easier" I find typing a line in terminal easier then clicking through battalions of windows.

Its a personal preference, don't say Linux is harder or easier, its an individual view, I find Linux much comfier for my programming needs. But I still advise my parents to use Windows.

[Barney T. Administrators]

Well, for experimentation sake, I downloaded and installed Eclipse and all of it's dependent packages via Synaptic and it took me 2 minutes and 20 seconds for total install. I selected Eclipse to install, Synaptic selected all of the dependencies for me, I clicked "Apply", and voila.

Just used my cable modem and the standard mirrors.............. :unsure:

[dwhall]

My father is in his mid 50's and will use nothing but Ubuntu. I keep telling him that Slackware is where it's at but he

refuses to listen to me lol. So yeah, Ubuntu isn't any more difficult than windows can be at times.

[Andre S. Veteran]

What are we exactly arguing about, if you installed Eclipse fine from the website?

On Windows, yes, I download the zip file from eclipse.org, extract it and I'm fine. Installing the JRE simply involves going on java.com and clicking the blue button. On Linux, the file on java.com is a .bin file, I can't open, I can't run it, I've no idea what to do with it. I am told I shouldn't do that and use "Synaptic", a universal program installer. Synaptic takes 3hours 24minutes to install eclipse and its dependencies. So maybe I should have configured Synaptic first ? What's less complicated, learning what to do with the .bin file or configuring Synaptic ? Heck, I don't want to know. I'd much rather just use Windows, but hey, got to use Linux to do my homework these days. So I waste time trying out different things and trying to waste less time. Weee ! I love it !

[Andre S. Veteran]

Also the slow download time might be down to the fact you were VMing Linux. As far as I am aware the experience is different with installed version.

That fails for two reasons:

- I was also VMing Vista in the test, and the 20 minutes mark includes the abnormal 10-minutes extract time. I didn't favor Vista in any way, these are the raw numbers for both vmachines;

- Downloading on a Ubuntu VM can be very fast, as I said in my OP, when downloading directly from java.com I easily hit 475kB/s, this is just an issue with Ubuntu's servers.

And yes, the internet connection was working properly, and in any case it behaved consistenly with what I had described in the OP, a less formal test ran the day before.

[Andre S. Veteran]

Well, for experimentation sake, I downloaded and installed Eclipse and all of it's dependent packages via Synaptic and it took me 2 minutes and 20 seconds for total install. I selected Eclipse to install, Synaptic selected all of the dependencies for me, I clicked "Apply", and voila.

Just used my cable modem and the standard mirrors.............. :unsure:

Lucky you.

I think your post is important for me to make a more general complaint about Linux. See, it's probable that most users install most software using Synaptic in acceptable time. I just have showed that Synaptic isn't quite the universal solution it's supposed to be because it isn't reliable. My Ubuntu VM is just your average joe installing Ubuntu on a machine in Montreal, QC, Canada, and trying to get his job done. I didn't tweak any setting, just the simple command supposed to "solve my problem" as markjensen put it. And it doesn't. See, on Windows, you just go find programs on the publisher website and if it's slow, blame the publisher. On Ubuntu, if you go on the publisher website download a bin file, that's called a "manual install" and it seems to involve quite a bit of command-line magic. No, the average user is supposed to use Synaptic, wooo. Well guess what, it SUCKS. How anyway is a single program supposed to track and provide me with every single software I might want to install ? Guess why Microsoft Update only updates Microsoft products ? Because they know they can't guarantee a smooth install process for every single piece of software out there. Ubuntu is some kind of ridiculous utopia, I don't know, I hate it.

If you live in my location (Montreal, QC, Canada), I'd be curious that you try to reproduce my test and see if you achieve similar results. I simply created a new Ubuntu VM in Virtual Box with the recommended settings, installed Ubuntu 8.10, opened a terminal and ran sudo apt-get install eclipse. I've a 5 megabit/s dsl internet connection, pretty much the average.

[brentaal]

Could you do a connection speedtest from inside the VM?

[ichi]

On Ubuntu, if you go on the publisher website download a bin file, that's called a "manual install" and it seems to involve quite a bit of command-line magic.

No, you just have to make it executable (right click and check file permisions) and then double click it.

The problem with not using the package manager is not that running stuff is complicated (it's not) but rather that you have to go hunting all the required dependencies through the web (that is, as in windows) which can be a PITA when it comes to java related stuff (yes, even on windows).

[Kudos Veteran]

Heck, I don't want to know.

Bingo!

In the first post you gave a rant disclaimer and you gave a good summary, but now you're still in bitching mode.

You don't want to give linux a fair whack and I don't want to hear any more mindless complaining. :o

[Zapadlo]

Well to make .bin file executable in terminal you need to run chmod +x. What you need to remember is that once you know that, you can apply to all the .bin files you have in the future without taking the time to google it. The same way you would with Windows, because remember, its not a fair comparison, you have been using Windows for years and Linux for hours. If you were presented with a task of installing Java JRE on Windows having you never used it, it wouldn't be simple task of going to the website, pressing the blue button. You wouldn't know you had to go to the website in the first place, just as you didn't know you need terminal/synaptic to install things of Linux.

Now regarding the download speed. Those two reasons you provided aren't viable, using the internet download is different to using OS software download. Try Ubuntu install and use synaptic then, if you get the same downloads speed, come back then.

And regarding your post about Linux being unreliable and individual experience, same can easily be said about Windows. I have 8800GT, I got nvlddmkm playing Half-Life 2, ep1,ep2, Bioshock, Fallout, Red Alert 3, World of Warcraft, UT3 or a bluescreen. I updated the graphic drivers in hope of this fixed for nearly a year, and after a year there is still no solution for it. Also my windows machine restarts sometimes at random or blacksreens. Not to mention I couldn't get Starcraft, C & C Generals to run on it and other software I can't remember of now.

However my friend also using Vista says he never had a problem with it and it never crashed on him. My system was well maintained, updated regularly yet experience with it was far less pleasant.

And since switching to linux I could get those games to work on linux better then they used to on my windows machine, funny eh?

[Andre S. Veteran]

No, you just have to make it executable (right click and check file permisions) and then double click it.

Tried it, as I explained in my first post, it won't launch, I don't know why.

Could you do a connection speedtest from inside the VM?

Sure.

Download : 5135 kb/s

Upload : 667 kb/s

Ping : 14ms

It's better than what I usually get natively. :p

Bingo!

In the first post you gave a rant disclaimer and you gave a good summary, but now you're still in bitching mode.

You don't want to give linux a fair whack and I don't want to hear any more mindless complaining.

I don't want to, but I have to, see. I'm not working on Linux out of pleasure or curiosity, I'm working on Linux because my teachers at school like to use unix-specific stuff that won't run on Windows.

I believe I made valid points based on experience and I'm merely backing them up against some replies some have made here. Sure, I'm bitching, but I feel like it. I'm not a detached, impartial tester in this, I'm a student trying to get some productive work done.

Well to make .bin file executable in terminal you need to run chmod +x. What you need to remember is that once you know that, you can apply to all the .bin files you have in the future without taking the time to google it. The same way you would with Windows, because remember, its not a fair comparison, you have been using Windows for years and Linux for hours. If you were presented with a task of installing Java JRE on Windows having you never used it, it wouldn't be simple task of going to the website, pressing the blue button. You wouldn't know you had to go to the website in the first place, just as you didn't know you need terminal/synaptic to install things of Linux.

Sure, I've used Windows for years. And I can't remember ever having such a painful time installing software.

Installing software on Windows is intuitive, on Ubuntu it's not. See, browse the web for 2 minutes, and you can find things to download on every site. Go to blizzard.com, you can download wallpapers for Warcraft 3, go to site x you can download this and that music; and your average joe gets used to, you know, download files to disk and then double-clicking them to use them. It's not intuitive per say to have to download a file then double-click it to use it, but it quickly gets familiar because that's how it works for everything on the web. Need a copy of your assignment ? Go to yourschool.org (whatever) and get it from the appropriate section ! Need something from microsoft ? Go to microsoft.com. Need something from Valve ? valvesoftware.com ! And why should programs be different from every other file? If I want the demo of Warcraft III, it's like wallpapers, I download the demo on blizzard.com and double-click the file. But Ubuntu says NOOO you can't do that ! Use my fancy package installer that doesn't work for ****.

You say on Windows, as a novice user, I wouldn't have been directly to java.com and pressed the big blue button. Well if I had been a previous Mac user that's what I would have done because it's also how it works on Mac. But ok, I'm a long-time Linux user with no Windows or Mac experience (you know lots of these guys? I dont). So, not knowing how things work on Windows, I head to google.com and type install java Windows. Hit enter, first link is the big blue button in question. One click and I'm done !

On Ubuntu, I end up on a wiki page listing 4 different ways of installing Java in great detail.

And regarding your post about Linux being unreliable and individual experience, same can easily be said about Windows. I have 8800GT, I got nvlddmkm playing Half-Life 2, ep1,ep2, Bioshock, Fallout, Red Alert 3, World of Warcraft, UT3 or a bluescreen. I updated the graphic drivers in hope of this fixed for nearly a year, and after a year there is still no solution for it.

I didn't say Linux was unreliable generally speaking, I said installing software using the package installer is unreliable because, as shown, it doesn't provide me with a decent install time. Edited March 4, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[MR_Candyman]

Ummm, you can double click on a package and install it. Of course there is lots of software out there that isn't put in packages and you need to compile it yourself, but once you do it a few times it's cake. As for you arguing (somehow) that you can't download wallpapers and stuff, well, what crack are you smoking? It works exactly the same in linux.

Your first post was pretty well done and I agree with the majority of it, but you're really just making stuff up now. I, personally, think you're making up the 3+ hour download time. I know it is possible for the server to have been extremely busy, and I have seen it a bit slow, but not THAT slow, ever. In 4 years.

Personally, I use windows more than linux. Why? Because I game and prefer to do so in windows than through Cedega (which I still do pay for). I do MUCH prefer installing programs in linux, with or without the package manager. Why? Dependancy checking and automatic installation of dependancies with package managers such as synaptic. Then there's the stability...but that's a different topic (as my other computer won't boot into Windows anymore and repair doesn't work...)

edit: thought I'd comment on this:

I said installing software using the package installer is unreliable because, as shown, it doesn't provide me with a decent install time.

How is that unreliable, even if you aren't lying? It installed just fine, it just took a long time. Completely reliable, even if a bit slow, which again I call into question.

[Zapadlo]

So in essence you are picking on a single aspect of Linux that you picked out disregarding others, that took a long time solely for you, while VMing and not even complicated as you originally suggested?

Bored now, bye.