Apple responds to Microsoft ads: "a PC is no bargain"

[Ricardo Gil]

Out of the box = Natively. OSX cannot run the vast majority of programs and/or games and that "PC" users can, and until it can, installing Windows on a Mac does not equal out of the box. Installing Windows on a Mac defeats the purpose of having a Mac in the first place, does it not?

I certainly don't agree. Installing Windows on a Mac is the same as on a regular PC.

It also does not defeat the purpose of having a Mac. I probably spend more time running Windows on my MacBook than OSX, and I'm very satisfied with it. I bought it mostly for the hardware, being able to run OSX is just the cherry on top.

For me, there's no better laptop than this one on the market right now (according to my needs and taste). Yours will differ I imagine.

[the evn show]

Microsoft could always ship Office with Windows... oh wait, everyone would cry foul.

Notably the shareholders: packing office free with windows would reduce Microsoft revenue by about 35% (based on their latest 10Q). I think they'd notice $15 billion dollars a year just vanishing.

I'd personally like them to include applications, or lower the price of Windows one or the other. I don't think Vista was worth its retail price for what it included.

Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it. You might not be see the value in a $5—$3,500 Windows license but the overwhelming majority of computer owners do.

I think the prices for Windows are a little on the steep side if you're picking up a retail boxed copy but most computer users don't have a need for that. The majority of computer users will be getting an OEM license from HP, Dell, etc. which costs only a few dollars, and 'upgraders' have discounted versions available to them. Roughly $100 for an operating system upgrade doesn't seem outlandish to me.

[BajiRav]

Exactly. I agree. But it should also be recognised that iLife comes with a Mac in the same statement which includes many Applications that Windows users would have to purchase if they wanted to do serious Video editing or Photo manipulation, DVD Authoring or learning an Instrument. In the same vain Mac users would have to spend money if they wanted to play Games and by that I mean obviously a license to XP or Vista.

In my opinion if your looking for a Gaming computer get a PC. You can paint a horse to look like a zebra but it's still a Horse at the end of the day and Mac's are just not very good for Gaming as they ship with only Optical out when it comes to more then 2.1 Sound (so you can't use 5.1 or 7.1 gaming headsets) the Graphics cards are very slow and in all but one of the computers (Mac Pro) cannot be changed from the default that the Machine ships with. And of course no SLI/Crossfire support.

iMovie is not for serious video editing - no matter what Apple claims. It is in equal league as WMM. DVD authoring is included in Vista/7.

[liberatus_sum]

Well, if you want good components PC's can get quite expensive too.

[giga Veteran]

iMovie is not for serious video editing - no matter what Apple claims. It is in equal league as WMM. DVD authoring is included in Vista/7.

Last time I used WMM, it could only import/edit/export Windows Media formats or DV AVIs. Simple MP4 H.264 video or AAC audio, which is a pretty common standard today, wasn't supported. Is that still the case today?

[bob21]

Well, if you want good components PC's can get quite expensive too.

By good you mean "Any off the shelf component that apple uses" its moronic to define every intel processor not used by apple as bad or any other manufacturer for that matter .

Your right though PC's can get quite expensive too but the difference is you wont end up with bog standard mid range components .

[Simon Veteran]

By good you mean "Any off the shelf component that apple uses" its moronic to define every intel processor not used by apple as bad or any other manufacturer for that matter .

Your right though PC's can get quite expensive too but the difference is you wont end up with bog standard mid range components .

May I point you back to https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...amp;p=590900946?

[bob21]

So the $1,188.00 price difference between a Dell XPS 16 and the corosponding MBP is explained through a magnetic power connector and a glass track pad :rolleyes:

[Vice]

Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it. You might not be see the value in a $5—$3,500 Windows license but the overwhelming majority of computer owners do.

I think the prices for Windows are a little on the steep side if you're picking up a retail boxed copy but most computer users don't have a need for that. The majority of computer users will be getting an OEM license from HP, Dell, etc. which costs only a few dollars, and 'upgraders' have discounted versions available to them. Roughly $100 for an operating system upgrade doesn't seem outlandish to me.

I don't think a lot of people would pay for it if they knew how much it cost but most will never know the true cost as they get it with a Hardware purchase (A Computer) and its already an OEM version that ships with that hardware. Like I said in my post I don't think the Retail copy was worth the cost. ?350 for Ultimate and ?220 or so for Premium was a bit of a joke. Again Retail. If you got the OEM copies Ultimate was ?120 but then you couldn't use it on any computer except the one you already had as the next activation would be blocked. Not exactly consumer friendly and definitely not good for money. The high Piracy levels of Windows in general are a good indicator that people are just not willing to pay for it but they do want/need it. The monopoly that Microsoft have built around their Operating System has allowed them to charge almost extortionate prices for new OS editions in my opinion.

And this isn't a Windows vs Mac opinion this is just a Windows user unhappy with the inflated pricing. Yes I know Microsoft spends a lot of money on research and development and they are a business not a charity. But I also think that Microsoft wastes to much money on R&D with reckless spending on projects that they could never hope to commercialise. I don't think the Consumers of Windows should have to eat the bill for all this bad accounting.

Here are the main pitfalls.

You want a Retail edition so you can take your Windows copy and install it on a new PC you buy. That costs 2-3x more then an OEM copy.

OEM Copies only allow you to install it on one computer (But you can reinstall it on that computer as many times as you want)

Upgrade copies require a previous installation of Windows before the Install will even begin so you have to keep an old disc around of XP or Vista so that you can install Vista in the future event that you need/want to format

You can buy a cheaper Retail copy but that may not have all the features you want

You may have to buy a more expensive copy to get just 1 feature that the lower-priced SKU doesn't support (Microsoft doesn't allow you to pay the difference to unlock just 1 or 2 features)

I'm not saying any other license is better just that Microsoft have a problem here. They keep banging on about Piracy but do nothing to stop the real reason for it (In the western world) which is highly inflated retail prices. They recognise emerging markets as using Pirated copies because the price is to high but what about the rest of the world? - Again I don't think Windows is worth ?200 or ?300 especially when I can run all the same software that Vista will run on XP (Except DX10 Games).

So the $1,188.00 price difference between a Dell XPS 16 and the corosponding MBP is explained through a magnetic power connector and a glass track:rolleyes:eyes:

I thought you wanted to discuss reliability differences not price differences.

[bob21]

I did but reliability has feck all to do with magnetic power connectors and touch pads.

[Vice]

Well it does if you actually read what I said. Magnetically held in connectors wear less then plastic and metal ones which are subject to heavy friction when pluggin in and pulled out of the notebook. The trackpad is made of Glass which is more resistant to wear then plastic. The notebooks also lack a latching mechanism which is another point of failure on PC notebooks due to wear.

Just like the hinge on your special HDX is different to the average PC hinge it in itself can be considered a more/less reliable part then a normal hinge.

This is just basic science fact m8, I dunno why you're swearing there is no need for it.

[Boz]

By good you mean "Any off the shelf component that apple uses" its moronic to define every intel processor not used by apple as bad or any other manufacturer for that matter .

Your right though PC's can get quite expensive too but the difference is you wont end up with bog standard mid range components .

Totally correct.. Here's what expensive on PC side will get you.. cause I was thinking of upgrading my Mac Pro but I'll probably go with my own PC build this time.

Newest Mac Pro (that I wanted)

• Two 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
  
• 12GB (6x2GB) 1066Mhz DDR3
  
• 640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
  
• 1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
  
• ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
  
• ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB (additional purchase +$349)
  
• One 18x SuperDrive (no Blu-Ray)
  

$7,048.00

The PC workstation I will most likely get:

[*]Two Intel Xeon X5570 Nehalem 2.93GHz LGA 1366 95W Quad

[*]SUPERMICRO MBD-X8DA3-O Dual LGA 1366 Intel 5520 Extended ATX - RAID Controller SAS 8 drives

[*]12GB Corsair (6 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 1333Mhz

[*]WD VelociRaptor 300GB 10000 RPM Hard Drive (Raid 0)

[*]WD VelociRaptor 300GB 10000 RPM Hard Drive

[*]Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 7200RPM 32mb Cache

[*]XFX GeForce GTX 285 1GB GDDR3

[*]XFX GeForce GTX 285 1GB GDDR3

[*]LG Black Blu-ray/HD DVD-ROM & 16X DVD?R DVD Burner SATA

[*]COOLER MASTER 1100W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready PSU

[*]COOLER MASTER ATCS 840 Silver all aluminum case

$5,437.89>

I also have TechNet description for $349 a year which gives me full Office 2007 Ultimate + all Windows versions and a bunch of other tools. Something Apple doesn't offer.

So when I include Technet (I already have it though) my PC price goes to$5,786.89>

We don't really have to discuss anything else hardware wise. This is pretty telling and I picked the BEST parts you can get for PC and the difference in price is not even worth discuss how big it is.

[Vice]

You should look at the Lenovo D20 Boz it's very high-end but amazing expansion and 4 years next business day warranty. It trashes the Mac Pro and I think it may also do better then self-builds simply based on the enterprise level support that comes standard.

[bob21]

Exactly and its pointless to worry about the lifetime of the power connector when the internal components (Hard Disk and RAM) are far more likely to fail .

[Vice]

Because its pointless to worry about the lifetime of the power connector when the internal components (Hard Disk and RAM) are far more likely to fail.

Says who? - It depends how much you're willing to spend and who your supplier is. I bought a Medion notebook a while ago and the power connector on that broke. Wasn't good. And I also had an iBook where the Power Connector broke twice. The Magsafe however I owned for 3 years and it never looked warn at all.

I also have a friend who had two laptops running in her living room connected to AC power when her dog ran in and hit the wires breaking them both which required replacement connectors for both notebooks. In this case had she had Magsafe it would have come free from the notebook with zero damage to the connector, the port or the animal. Total price for the two replacement adapters (One from HP and one from Acer) was about ?86.

[bob21]

Says who?

Clicky

[Vice]

Clicky

So a Hard Drive is your argument? - What a Joke.

May I also point out that the Hard Disk is easily removable from the MacBooks and MacBook Pros while some other manufacturers require you to take apart the entire notebook to replace that part.

Also I would argue that post is based on assumptions. As can be seen by my post the Notebooks power connector is likely to fail in many different normal usage scenarios.

[Zarpraz]

You should look at the Lenovo D20 Boz it's very high-end but amazing expansion and 4 years next business day warranty. It trashes the Mac Pro and I think it may also do better then self-builds simply based on the enterprise level support that comes standard.

Don't talk crap, how the hell does a single 1.86GHz Xeon trash a Mac Pro? It certainly isn't very high end or it would have dual CPU's and they'd be 3GHz.

[bob21]

Absolutely platters that spin 7,200 rpm when the drive is operating , a read head that flicks out 50 times per second . Its a mericle these things actually work . Hard Disks have a MTBF, power connectors do not .

[Zarpraz]

So a Hard Drive is your argument? - What a Joke.

May I also point out that the Hard Disk is easily removable from the MacBooks and MacBook Pros while some other manufacturers require you to take apart the entire notebook to replace that part.

Also I would argue that post is based on assumptions. As can be seen by my post the Notebooks power connector is likely to fail in many different normal usage scenarios.

Shame you can't do something simple like swap the battery without undoing about a dozen screws though isn't it?

[Vice]

Don't talk crap, how the hell does a single 1.86GHz Xeon trash a Mac Pro? It certainly isn't very high end or it would have dual CPU's and they'd be 3GHz.

Perhaps you should actually click on Configure and see that it is a Dual Socket system which will take CPU's up to 3.2GHz just like the Mac Pro.

How it beats the Mac Pro:

Same price in same configuration. But it includes more Hard Disk bays and connectors, 3x the RAM capacity, much more expansion, 1200Watt power supply, 4 year next day buisness support.

[Zarpraz]

Totally correct.. Here's what expensive on PC side will get you.. cause I was thinking of upgrading my Mac Pro but I'll probably go with my own PC build this time.

Newest Mac Pro (that I wanted)

• Two 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
  
• 12GB (6x2GB) 1066Mhz DDR3
  
• 640GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
  
• 1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
  
• ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
  
• ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB (additional purchase +$349)
  
• One 18x SuperDrive (no Blu-Ray)
  

$7,048.00

No one in their right mind buys RAM from Apple.

[Vice]

Shame you can't do something simple like swap the battery without undoing about a dozen screws though isn't it?

With an Eight hour battery I never need/want to do that. Plus I chose to buy the new model after already owning the older model which had an easily accessible and replaceable battery. I never replaced that one. The only event that would make me want to change the battery would be if the one already in the notebook failed in which case I could remove the bottom panel and do that.

Absolutely platters that spin 7,200 rpm when the drive is operating , a read head that flicks out 50 times per second . Its a mericle these things actually work . Hard Disks have a MTBF, power connectors do not .

Yes they have MTBF's etc but I've owned something like 40 hard disks in my life and never had a single one fail. But if you look at the notebooks I've had 2 have had the Power connector fail. One of those notebooks had it fail twice in-fact. (Apple iBook)

[bob21]

An thats your experience , Not that i believe it for a second . But in the real world its the internal components that are more likely to fail and in the case of the HDD will fail . Same Components Same Reliability.

[Vice]

An thats your experience , Not that i believe it for a second .

So you're calling me a liar? - Ok I'm done with this discussion.