That's enough. Down with Opera!

[Subject Delta]

It would appear that Opera's entire user base has been alerted to this thread and they've signed up to pour vitriol on anyone who's unhappy with Opera's tactics.

Thats absurd. I absolutely love and swear by Opera, and I totally disagree with their tactics, what I have a problem with is the fact that Opera are being slammed for what the EU is doing. Yes, Opera filed the complaint but the EU are the enforcer here, not Opera Software ASA, and ultimately if you want to b***h about the decisions taken then blame the EU.

All 3 or them? :p

Silly comments like that contribute absolutely nothing, and just derail threads into pointless bickering.

[fammie]

Fammie, perhaps you could provide us with some evidence that Microsoft have broken the law.

Please read the thread. Are you denying that Microsoft bundled IE with its dominant Windows operating system? That was illegal.

Actually the Internet Explorer browser being built into the Windows OS is a mute subject. Linux has firefox built into the OS.

Linux is not a dominant operating system. Windows is. Dominant companies in a market play by special rules because their behavior has a huge influence on the market.

And while you're at it fammie, I'd like to hear why Windows isn't breaking any laws with the applications I mentioned here: https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...amp;p=591132858

And why the browser (IE) so special in this case.

It isn't up to me to show that those applications break the law. You made the claim, you make the argument.

Simple. You're trying to mislead people into thinking that just because Google and Mozilla, both non-EU companies, have joined the complaint, it means that the EC isn't simply trying to resort to protectionism in Opera's favor.

Opera is based in Norway, which isn't even a member of the EU.

Wow. The US and Canada commit themselves to following the EU's economic regulations? News to me!

No. But they have agreements similar to the EEC.

What the EC is doing here is already sheer absurdity at its finest.

So enforcing the law is absurd?

What laws, exactly?

For someone who is so opinionated, you certainly lack a lot of knowledge. Look up Article 81.

You've already said that you agree that Microsoft isn't breaking any.

No, I have said that Microsoft's latest move isn't violating any laws. I never said that Microsoft never broke a law. Are you consciously lying in order to "win" the debate?

Wrong AGAIN, as usual. You told us how Microsoft is producing a browser that does not implement modern web standards completely. You have yet to show a single shred of evidence that they're doing it consciously and in bad faith to undermine the Internet.

Are you really this ignorant of Microsoft's history? Of the documents that were uncovered during the antitrust case in the US where it was revealed that they used all sorts of tactics to destroy Netscape, including consciously making IE incompatible with standards?

[Imran Hussain]

Google is default in Opera because it is the most commonly used. All you have to do is select another engine from the dropdown box, they have almost all of the search engines you will ever need, and you can easily add more to search.ini

You know, IE is the most commonly used browser too.

If you go to uninstall programs in Windows 7, u can remove IE if you want, and install other browsers. :p

On a serious note, all these Opera fanatics are missing the point. I can bet on the fact that their 'favorite' browser will still not gain market share even after this sly move against Microsoft. Why? Because the browser aint good enough. I remember trying to shift a lot of friends and family members to Opera a year ago. They just didn't like it.

P.S. Microsoft never forced you to use IE. That's pure bull****. Anyone who claims so should get a reality check.

[fammie]

why are people talking about linux when the thread is about one company wanting to see another company get harmed?

One company? The complaint is backed by Mozilla, Google, and several other companies. They are not out to harm anyone, merely to restore competition in the browser market.

On a serious note, all these Opera fanatics are missing the point. I can bet on the fact that their 'favorite' browser will still not gain market share even after this sly move against Microsoft.

Why are you Microsoft shills all obsessing over market share? Opera's market share is actually rising, and their desktop user base doubled in less than 2 years. But this is all besides the point. You are clearly trolling about Opera because you have no valid arguments pertaining to the actual discussion at hand.

My personal view on this whole lawsuit is that if MS are forced to bundle or offer users a choice of browser then so should the likes of Apple, etc. It's not fair to say that MS shouldn't bundle IE into their own product if you're not going to say the same for other OS's.

Apple is not a monopolist. Microsoft is. Monopolist have to play by special rules because their behavior have a huge impact on the market.

Why are you saying that it is not fair to enforce the law? Are you an Anarchist?

No company in the world would even consider advertising or offer their customers a choice to use a competitions product so this whole lawsuit is ridiculous.

There is no lawsuit. No one was sued. It is an antitrust case. And furthermore, it is normal procedure to force convicted monopolists to carry competing goods. For example Coca Cola was forced to allow Pepsi into their vending machines because of their anti-competitive practices.

[Subject Delta]

Nobody claims that Microsoft force people to use IE, but when you mix a consumer OS that is on 90 odd % of the worlds computers, with the fact that IE is bundled with Windows, with the fact that the common n00b just clicks and goes without thinking about what software they are using, the result is pretty inevitable.

Regardless of whether you like Opera or not, sitting there and taking childish digs at it doesn't help your credibility at all, discussing the merits of what makes a better browser is irrelevant to the case of competition. I have already stated that despite my love of Opera, I don't agree with their complaints at all, so why are you taking digs at me?

[Growled Member]

Silly comments like that contribute absolutely nothing, and just derail threads into pointless bickering.

To late, this thread got lost in the pointless bickering 12 pages ago. :p

[spenser.d]

@Frank - Not Microsoft's fault the other browsers can't advertise themselves enough to penetrate into the mainstream market (although FF is doing pretty well there). Microsoft shouldn't have to help them along. When I and most others purchase an Operating System, we expect a browser to be included and I would never expect a company producing an OS to include any other browser than it's own.

It's Microsoft's job to give me a complete OS. Including a browser is part of that. If other companies want to make a browser, that's fine, but Microsoft should not have any obligations to help them out.

-Spenser

[Eice]

Opera is based in Norway

Which submits itself to EU economic regulations.

So enforcing the law is absurd?

Either you're just desperate for stalling tactics, or your hypocritical self-contradictory statements are simply phenomenal, OR (the most likely option) you're just an Opera shill, plain and simple.

Microsoft removing IE from Windows breaks no laws. Why is the EC still seeking to slap arbitrary decisions on Microsoft?

For someone who is so opinionated, you certainly lack a lot of knowledge. Look up Article 81.

And you lack the decency to simply admit that you were dead wrong, choosing instead to go around in circles.

No, I have said that Microsoft's latest move isn't violating any laws. I never said that Microsoft never broke a law. Are you consciously lying in order to "win" the debate?

So come on. Don't keep us all waiting in suspense, tell us which law Microsoft is breaking by not perfectly implementing modern web standards. Oh wait - that's right, you can't, because Microsoft isn't breaking any.

Are you really this ignorant of Microsoft's history? Of the documents that were uncovered during the antitrust case in the US where it was revealed that they used all sorts of tactics to destroy Netscape, including consciously making IE incompatible with standards?

And they have been duly penalized in those past cases. After this many pages, you have yet to show the slightest shred of evidence that, in this case, Microsoft is deliberately sabotaging the Internet.

You've already been revealed for the Opera shill you are, so I suppose it's no big deal for you to stoop to such unintelligent stalling tactics and beating around the bush. If any Opera representatives are reading this, I suggest that you guys hire paid shills with a higher IQ count in future.

[Subject Delta]

@Frank - Not Microsoft's fault the other browsers can't advertise themselves enough to penetrate into the mainstream market (although FF is doing pretty well there). Microsoft shouldn't have to help them along. When I and most others purchase an Operating System, we expect a browser to be included and I would never expect a company producing an OS to include any other browser than it's own.

Sure, I agree totally but you gotta admit having IE bundled with Windows gives them an extremely healthy advantage without even having to lift a finger

[Calum Veteran]

@Frank - Not Microsoft's fault the other browsers can't advertise themselves enough to penetrate into the mainstream market (although FF is doing pretty well there). Microsoft shouldn't have to help them along. When I and most others purchase an Operating System, we expect a browser to be included and I would never expect a company producing an OS to include any other browser than it's own.

It's Microsoft's job to give me a complete OS. Including a browser is part of that. If other companies want to make a browser, that's fine, but Microsoft should not have any obligations to help them out.

-Spenser

But most computer users do not even know other browsers exist because Microsoft have bundled Internet Explorer with Windows and made it the default browser. They've made it seem to many users that that is the only way to access websites. Is this fair on the competition? No. Could it possibly give Internet Explorer its, undeserved, massive market share? Yes.

[Eice]

But most computer users do not even know other browsers exist because Microsoft have bundled Internet Explorer with Windows and made it the default browser.

Because other browser vendors (at least before Firefox came along) have been horribly incompetent at marketing their product. In any other market, the thought that the dominating vendor should help out its smaller, less well-known competitors is absolute balderdash. Why should it be any different for browsers?

[Pupik]

It isn't up to me to show that those applications break the law. You made the claim, you make the argument.

Well, then I see that we agree on the fact that bundling an application with the OS is not against the law.

Finally, some progress! (Y)

[Imran Hussain]

Why are you Microsoft shills all obsessing over market share? Opera's market share is actually rising, and their desktop user base doubled in less than 2 years. But this is all besides the point. You are clearly trolling about Opera because you have no valid arguments pertaining to the actual discussion at hand.

Right.. because Opera couldn't think of taking Microsoft to the court 10 years earlier, but now that it saw Firefox and even Chrome suddenly attracting market share. Opera and trolls like you come out of no where and claim false? Where the **** was Opera sleeping back then?

Opera's market share on the rise? Doubling 0.5 doesn't make it a lot. And it's obvious who is trolling btw. You joined these forums JUST to troll in this thread.

[TonyLock]

Done! I've already removed Opera.

[Growled Member]

This entire thing could have been avoided if Microsoft would have just once tried to work with others instead of trying to force things to go their way. IE is the worst browser out there and has the highest market share, mainly because it comes installed on Windows. Even now Microsoft gives the standards the middle finger and goes their own way. Others can follow or not, they don't care. They don't have to care. It's not like they make money from IE. They make money from Windows.

I have nothing against Opera or their complaint. They had every right to complain, just on the standards issue alone. The web would be a much nicer place if everyone used the same standards. It's not right for everyone else to adhere to the standards and then for MS to flick their nose at them.

[fammie]

It's Microsoft's job to give me a complete OS. Including a browser is part of that. If other companies want to make a browser, that's fine, but Microsoft should not have any obligations to help them out.

However, Microsoft broke the law, and breaking the law has consequences.

Which submits itself to EU economic regulations.

Partially, but here's the kicker: Norwegian companies do not pay taxes to the EU or anything like that. Thus, it would be entirely pointless for the EU to "protect" Opera, as there is nothing in it for the EU.

Furthermore, Real Networks is a US company. Remember the Windows Media Player case. Are you saying that the EU was "protectionist" in that case as well? :D

Either you're just desperate for stalling tactics, or your hypocritical self-contradictory statements are simply phenomenal, OR (the most likely option) you're just an Opera shill, plain and simple.

You didn't answer the question. Is enforcing the law absurd?

Microsoft removing IE from Windows breaks no laws. Why is the EC still seeking to slap arbitrary decisions on Microsoft?

There are no arbitrary decisions. Forcing a convicted monopolist to carry other products has a long history. And they are continuing with the case because they don't think removing IE is sufficient, and that it won't repair the damage done to the market in an appropriate way.

And you lack the decency to simply admit that you were dead wrong, choosing instead to go around in circles.

Wrong about what? You weren't even aware of Article 81!

So come on. Don't keep us all waiting in suspense, tell us which law Microsoft is breaking by not perfectly implementing modern web standards.

It is part of the situation where a dominant player in a market uses bundling to achieve dominance in a different market. And to maintain that dominance, Microsoft consciously ignored open standards.

Bundling in itself is not illegal. Having a monopoly itself is not illegal. Not following standards in itself is not necessarily illegal. However, the combination leads to Microsoft unlawfully gaining dominance in a market by leveraging its dominance in a different market, which is illegal.

And they have been duly penalized in those past cases.

But that isn't the issue. You asked about evidence that they had done so consciously. I guestioned how someone as opinionated as yourself could have missed all the documents uncovered during the US antitrust case in the late 90s.

[spenser.d]

Sure, I agree totally but you gotta admit having IE bundled with Windows gives them an extremely healthy advantage without even having to lift a finger

Oh yeah, but I think that's something a company wanting to make a browser has to deal and cope with if they do, in fact, decide they want to go ahead and make a browser and enter that market. They're going to have to think about how to market their product and such. No weight should be put on Microsoft, who's just providing software that should be included in any OS. Mozilla and Opera didn't have to enter the market, but they chose to anyways. I don't know how well Opera is doing, but I guess it's not too well. Firefox is doing damn well, so that just shows that there is a way to do such things.

But most computer users do not even know other browsers exist because Microsoft have bundled Internet Explorer with Windows and made it the default browser. They've made it seem to many users that that is the only way to access websites. Is this fair on the competition? No. Could it possibly give Internet Explorer its, undeserved, massive market share? Yes.

See above.

-Spenser

[fammie]

Well, then I see that we agree on the fact that bundling an application with the OS is not against the law.

Correct. Bundling in itself is not against the law. However, leveraging your dominant position in one market to gain dominance in a different market IS illegal. Glad I could educate you.

Right.. because Opera couldn't think of taking Microsoft to the court 10 years earlier, but now that it saw Firefox and even Chrome suddenly attracting market share.

Opera has a higher market share than Chrome:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-eu-dail...01-20090613-bar

Opera did not take Microsoft to court. It is not a lawsuit. Opera merely reported a crime to the authorities.

Firefox is an anomaly, as Mozilla points out:

"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field. That tilt comes with the distribution channel - default status for the OS bundled Web browser."

I am surprised at the sheer ignorance regarding this case!

[hdood]

I am surprised at the sheer ignorance regarding this case!

Welcome to Neowin.

[ToneKnee]

Hey everyone! Here is an idea...

Let's go with the ballot box idea. Let's include IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Maxathon etc and not include Opera! At least then Microsoft will be playing by the rules but give Opera absolutely **** all out of it.

[fammie]

Let's go with the ballot box idea. Let's include IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Maxathon etc and not include Opera! At least then Microsoft will be playing by the rules but give Opera absolutely **** all out of it.

So you want to punish Opera alone even though both Mozilla and Google are involved in the case as well? Interesting.

In either case, it's the EU which decides which browsers to bundle, so your trolling here does miss the point.

In any other market, the thought that the dominating vendor should help out its smaller, less well-known competitors is absolute balderdash. Why should it be any different for browsers?

It is no different for browsers. If the dominant vendors breaks the law and ruins the market, he will be forced to take action to restore it. No amount of whining will change that fact.

[Eice]

Partially, but...

And there we go. Whether the EU receives immediate monetary contributions from Opera is immaterial when they have so much potential control over it waiting to be exercised.

Furthermore, Real Networks is a US company. Remember the Windows Media Player case. Are you saying that the EU was "protectionist" in that case as well? :D

Which was exactly the reason the EC was content when Microsoft announced it would stop bundling WMP with Windows. Now that a European company is concerned, not anymore.

You didn't answer the question. Is enforcing the law absurd?

Of course not. Unfortunately YOU didn't answer the question here: which law are they trying to enforce here? What's illegal about removing IE from Windows?

There are no arbitrary decisions. Forcing a convicted monopolist to carry other products has a long history. And they are continuing with the case because they don't think removing IE is sufficient, and that it won't repair the damage done to the market in an appropriate way.

Wow, the EC dances to Opera's tune, proposes an absurd case against Microsoft not based on any law and without putting forth any logical rationale, and you rush to support it - why?

But I think we all know the answer to that. ;)

Wrong about what? You weren't even aware of Article 81!

More stalling tactics. Wrong about now that Microsoft has complied with Article 81, the EC is STILL not happy. Why? Answer: it has nothing to do with Article 81.

And to maintain that dominance, Microsoft consciously ignored open standards.

You've been claiming that repeatedly. But still no evidence at all to back it up, which by now is hardly surprising.

But that isn't the issue. You asked about evidence that they had done so consciously. I guestioned how someone as opinionated as yourself could have missed all the documents uncovered during the US antitrust case in the late 90s.

So if Microsoft is convicted once, that automatically means they're doing it forever, even though there's not the slightest bit of evidence to back that up?

I asked for evidence that they are doing it consciously NOW. Cases that were settled and closed in the late 90s mean jack squat in this case, especially when Microsoft has already been penalized for them. But of course, this is just another one of your stalling/confusion tactics which you try to substitute for evidence.

[Imran Hussain]

Opera has a higher market share than Chrome:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-eu-dail...01-20090613-bar

No it doesn't.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-ma...re.aspx?qprid=0

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

These links show that Chrome has a higher market share than Opera. Almost more than twice.

You can stop throwing around the double share figure now.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Imran Hussain

[Eice]

It is no different for browsers. If the dominant vendors breaks the law and ruins the market, he will be forced to take action to restore it. No amount of whining will change that fact.

"Ruins the market"?

For all of Microsoft's attempts to "ruin the market", Firefox is enjoying a healthy segment of the market share. So is Safari, and Google Chrome's seeing its fortunes rise steadily as well. Opera, on the other hand, has flatlined at the same spot for a decade, or even declined. Let's stop being immature children and face the ugly truth: it's just a loser, and that's not Microsoft's fault. No amount of whining will change that fact.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Eice

[Kyang]

First browsers, who knows what next.

Force MS to give the user the choice of Media player or Paint app?