Opera: Microsoft's 'minor tweak' of Windows 7 not enough

[M_Lyons10]

It sounds like your the one that is naive. If you would take your head out of your ass you would see that the world is not only black and white. There is a perfectly legitimate gray area. Smaller companies complain and cause trouble for larger companies all the time. Especially when they can't develop a product that is as good or better than the one they are trying to compete against. Just seems like you have a chip on your shoulder over companies that find their niche and become and continue to be successful. Large companies should not have to appoligize for being successful.

Good post.

Mozilla was backed by one of the largest IT businesses in the world, notably Google. 85% of their revenue comes from that.

And it now matters where they make their money because? That particular profit comes from searches conducted from WITHIN the Firefox browser. If they were unable to gain market share and get users to use the search built into Firefox, they would not have made that money. The fact that they have made a profit in this way only supports my statement. They have also made some profit by assisting in the development of solutions for other companies (An example would be the new Netscape browser - which I have not used).

[Miuku.]

And it now matters where they make their money because? That particular profit comes from searches conducted from WITHIN the Firefox browser.

Which is set as the default search engine. If Mozilla changed the default search engine to say, Bing, what do you think would happen to their profits?

If they were unable to gain market share and get users to use the search built into Firefox, they would not have made that money. The fact that they have made a profit in this way only supports my statement.

They already had an established user base - mainly that made up by ex-Netscape users who disliked IE in the first place and alternative operating system users.

If you think I'm an Opera user, you're gravely mistaken - I use Safari. However you'd have to be blind not to see that bundling IE with the operating system was nothing less than an attempt to kill competition, it should've been nipped at the bud but unfortunately EU and DOJ were handless at the time. Unfortunately, in a sense, it was too late for Netscape but I'm sure at least some of the ex-workers there are smiling now.

[statm1]

They have also made some profit by assisting in the development of solutions for other companies (An example would be the new Netscape browser - which I have not used).

I believe the "new" netscape browser was made as a last ditch effort by Netscape to gain any traction they could. But all it was, was a Firefox clone like Flock. They gave up quite some time ago though.

If you think I'm an Opera user, you're gravely mistaken - I use Safari. However you'd have to be blind not to see that bundling IE with the operating system was nothing less than an attempt to kill competition, it should've been nipped at the bud but unfortunately EU and DOJ were handless at the time. Unfortunately, in a sense, it was too late for Netscape but I'm sure at least some of the ex-workers there are smiling now.

I will have to disagree with you on that one.. It was simply one company putting their own product on to another one of their own products. Something any company should have the right to do. And again since Firefox still exists and is still very successful apparently it only hurts competiton when you cant compete in the first place which is the case with Netscape and Opera. If you have a good product obviously you can compete whether IE gets bundled or not.

Edited July 18, 2009 by statm1

[John Freeman]

Although Opera can suck it with their ballot screen, it would be just hiiiilarious if they made one without including those whiners. But seriously, they are just acting like kids going "mommy, mommy, no ones noticing me at school! Do Smth!" Too bad Europe is to big of a market, not some small country that ms could pull out all together.

[SVG Veteran]

One piece of advice for Opera.. Stop programming for Windows

[MightyJordan]

opera can shut up moaning i used to have some respect for opea now ive lost off respect for them

Agreed. Opera have no ground to stand on until they can make a half-decent browser again. Back during the XP days, Opera was the fastest of all the browsers. Now, it's slower then even IE! And I'm talking about Opera 10 with Turbo Mode turned on! Hell, it's even slower than Safari now!

[Ambroos]

A good product doesn't need promotion (Firefox, anyone?) And Opera should just stop it right now cause what they're doing is just getting ridiculous. If people want to use a different browser they will anyway. I use Firefox, but I can't live without Chrome/IE for my web development stuff etc. An OS without a browser is so 90's, it should not have happened.

[Prince Charming]

Which is set as the default search engine. If Mozilla changed the default search engine to say, Bing, what do you think would happen to their profits?

They already had an established user base - mainly that made up by ex-Netscape users who disliked IE in the first place and alternative operating system users.

If you think I'm an Opera user, you're gravely mistaken - I use Safari. However you'd have to be blind not to see that bundling IE with the operating system was nothing less than an attempt to kill competition, it should've been nipped at the bud but unfortunately EU and DOJ were handless at the time. Unfortunately, in a sense, it was too late for Netscape but I'm sure at least some of the ex-workers there are smiling now.

No, it's perfectly acceptable in my book. They made an Internet Browser, which is a rather important piece of software, especially today. They made an operating system, which is an even more important piece of software; it's likely users will want both. Both were provided. Please observe Apple doing exactly the same practice with Safari - in a proper, sensible, free-market that isn't so retardedly constrained, the relatively market share is irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Windows has something like 95% of the market and OS X around 5%; you shouldn't target the market leader just because they're in front. It's...stupid.

[Berserk87]

on any phone other than an iphone, i use opera mobile, or opera mini.

it compared to the default browsers, it usually wins, as for desktops though, ill stick with firefox or chrome.

[Bassem]

Shut up already.

[thealexweb]

so how about a Ballot Screen with Internet Explorer, Fire Fox, Safari & Chrome.....those are the major browsers aren't they??

Good point Opera's market share is small enough to ignore.

[Petvas]

I find Opera's behavior not ok. They should concentrate in creating a great browser experience and stop trying to hurt Microsoft. Why is Firefox so successfull? Despite Microsoft bundling IE Firefox is rising and almost everyone knows about it.

A ballot screen is just a bad idea and people who think it is a good thing, have probably forgotten that Microsoft has the copyright on Windows! They can do with it whatever they want...

We live in an age where the browser is becoming the OS and on the other hand we have Opera (and many others behind it...Google, Mozilla) complaining about IE's integration in Windows. That is ridiculous and shows that these companies do not want to invest their time in creating quality software...They prefer to put time and effort in destroying others..

As far as I am concerned, I won't be using Opera ever again and I have also stopped using Google (the big brother) and Firefox (Google's right hand). Bing is so much better as a search engine and IE8 is also very good.

[Arkaic]

Technically, browser competition has already been going for awhile. Firefox wouldn't keep gaining marketshare if it wasn't. Opera just hasn't been able to gain any traction.

Yup! +1

Quit whining already!

[mdtaUK]

Opera has its own little successes, every Nintendo DSi comes with an Opera Browser, and the DS and Wii browsers are the only options available and these are Opera.

Opera were the last company to stop charging for their browser, and have not made the right partnerships to succeed in the free browser market.

Firefox has Google and Mozilla

IE has Microsoft

Safari has Apple

Opera has ________ (the EU?)

Anyway, once Microsoft confirm that IE8 will not be available to Windows 7 E users via desktop icons or Windows Update, the EU will have no case to persue anymore, and Opera will be out in the cold and will realise they are not good enough to compete, and will remain a custom browser developer for various devices and will have to settle with that fact.

[Lechio]

• The European Commission does not exist to make someone's "dirty work" as it was implied. There are mechanisms that analyze potential unfair situations ( dominant market position abuse is the case here ).
  
• By taking out IE from Windows, Microsoft has not solved anything. On the contrary it has created a lot of issues for users. It will not "restore browser competition on the desktop" with this move.
  
• This is nothing more than an attempt to blackmail the European Commission and influence the opinion of Windows users in the EU. I'm sure the European Commission will take the necessary measures to protect its citizens interests in due time.
  

[hdood]

No it does not. MS was punished already for the 90s case by the US DOJ. This is an entirely new case.

This may come as a HUGE shock to you, but the US DOJ has no jurisdiction in Europe and does not make rulings for the whole world.

You're welcome.

[-KJ]

[...] Why is Firefox so successfull? [...]

They offered a better browser than IE6, and for free. Word spread around quickly, the push for open-source software was the big thing, and devs and users embraced and supported it. :) I remember trying FF2 for the first time. What an awesome browser, but it was such a memory hog on my old laptop after 10 tabs were open that I moved to Opera when it became free (with advertisements :wacko:), but at least it ran like a champ on my old laptop and that was a sacrifice I was willing to make.

Now that I have a new notebook, I may jump back to FF/Chrome. Though I'm so comfortable using Opera now that I don't really see the point.

[statm1]

Where did you see me say anything about the US having jurisdiction in Europe?

[hdood]

Where did you see me say anything about the US having jurisdiction in Europe?

Because you implied that this wasn't about what Microsoft started in the 90s because they'd already been punished for that by the US.

[Lannister]

So Opera want the Trident rendering engine removed from Windows 7 completely?

How does that help competition?

There's quite a few 3rd party browsers that rely on that same rendering engine. Sounds like they want to stifle competition to up their tiny market share.

[Sethos]

This is the sole reasons as to why I refuse to use Opera - They are a bunch of crybabies that are incapable of pushing their browser as an honest product, they'd rather go cry to mum and hope she tells off the other kids.

[surrealvortex]

Opera does make a good browser. However, they are not helping their cause at all by doing this. All they are achieving is animosity amongst the very people who do use their browser.

[hdood]

So Opera want the Trident rendering engine removed from Windows 7 completely?

No, they don't. They want Microsoft to have to offer the user a list of browsers (including IE). This is even stated in the quote in the original poster, but I understand that reading is exceptionally difficult.

Mozilla and Google also support this.

[George P Global Moderator]

Here we go again. People should just give it a rest already. Last I checked MS got fined and paid money for breaking the law in the EU with regards to IE. So anything after that is up for debate. I can't see how the 2 or 3 of you on the courts side like to sidestep the fact that other browsers can and have been gaining market share all this time regardless of IE being part of windows.

Why didn't the EU ask MS to offer a list of media players last time? Why was that exact same case covering the exact same law-breaking different? Why then was WMP asked to be removed if that wouldn't restore the market?

I don't see any difference between the two cases, the only difference is software. The charges are the same and the verdict is the same. MS following the previous outcome decided not to wait for the EU to move it's slow ass since they have a product to release and just took out IE.

And ofc mozilla and Google support having a list, it's more free adertising for them. You'd be daft to think otherwise. But then, why don't other browsers give me a list of search providers after I install them like IE does now? Last time I used Opera I couldn't even change the search box from Google to something else.

[statm1]

Because you implied that this wasn't about what Microsoft started in the 90s because they'd already been punished for that by the US.

All I said was that it a new case and has nothing to do with the one in the 90s BECAUSE it was between MS and Netscape. Netscape had a case because MS actually did break the law because in that case it was more than just bundling. Go read your history..

So Opera want the Trident rendering engine removed from Windows 7 completely?

No, they don't. They want Microsoft to have to offer the user a list of browsers (including IE). This is even stated in the quote in the original poster, but I understand that reading is exceptionally difficult.

Flipping a switch to simply make IE8 unavailable is not enough for Opera, ...

Kinda sounds like it to me Hdood.. Looks like its pretty difficult for you too. Since this is a quote from the original poster.