Opera Wants More From Microsoft

[Boz]

You are linking to Hitslink, which was exposed as a bunch of liars ages ago. In fact, they recently admitted that their stats were complete garbage, and suddenly Opera went from less than 1% to 2%. But Opera has a 3% market share. According to IWS there are about 1.4 billion desktops online. Opera had more than 40 million users at the same time. 40 million is about 3% of 1.4 billion. And StatCounter reports this correctly:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-mont...0902-200907-bar

So Opera is the #3 browser worldwide DESPITE Safari being preinstalled on a popular system, and despite Google's massive advertising campaigns.

Even better in Europe where Opera absolutely destroys Chrome and Safari:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-eu-mont...0902-200907-bar

What you seem to forget is that both Chrome and Safari have been really in a form we see them today like a year or two ago. How long has Opera been on the market? It's not hard to see where this is going. Opera will be DEAD LAST and non-existent judging by things and how fast the other 2 browser grow. Hell even Firefox is a kid when compared how old Opera is and yet they've completely annihilated them.

Here's some interesting facts:

Chrome: Initial release September 2, 2008 (growing fast) - NO LAWSUITS NEEDED

Safari: Initial release 2004 - Crossplatform 11 June 2007 (growing fast) - NO LAWSUITS NEEDED

Firefox: November 9, 2004 (major marketshare today even bigger then IE) - NO LAWSUITS NEEDED

IE: Included in Windows 1995. It has been the most widely used web browser since 1999 (yet today they are not the major browser anymore and the browser market is very diversified)

Opera: Initial Release 1996 - major fail even today and going down - KICKING AND SCREAMING WITH EVERY POSSIBLE LAWSUIT/DEMAND AVAILABLE

That's why Opera is continuing with this charade. They know they will be out of the game and since they can't do anything about Google and Safari and Firefox legally they are trying to use Microsoft and Windows to distribute their browser.

They are officially the most ridiculous company on this planet and deserve to go bankrupt and cease to exist.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Boz

[brentaal]

You are linking to Hitslink, which was exposed as a bunch of liars ages ago. In fact, they recently admitted that their stats were complete garbage, and suddenly Opera went from less than 1% to 2%. But Opera has a 3% market share. According to IWS there are about 1.4 billion desktops online. Opera had more than 40 million users at the same time. 40 million is about 3% of 1.4 billion. And StatCounter reports this correctly:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-mont...0902-200907-bar

So Opera is the #3 browser worldwide DESPITE Safari being preinstalled on a popular system, and despite Google's massive advertising campaigns.

Even better in Europe where Opera absolutely destroys Chrome and Safari:

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-eu-mont...0902-200907-bar

Now switch the "bar" method of that graph to "line", and see how Opera's market share shrunk to 6.84% in EU, and keeps going down. Only 2.64% in the global market share.

[d_ralphie]

@brentaal: Actually, Opera's market share is going up over time. Short term fluctuations are irrelevant. Opera hasn't even released a new version for a long time. Wait for Opera 10.

@Boz

"How long has Opera been on the market?"

Funny you should ask. Opera has only been free of charge for 3-4 years. So as a small, independent company they have come quite far, especially considering Google's failure to take significant market share from Firefox despite the massive resources at their disposal.

"Opera: Initial Release 1996"

But you had to pay. In reality, Opera has only been free of charge for 3-4 years.

"That's why Opera is continuing with this charade."

Opera isn't continuing anything. Opera has no authority here. Opera is just involved as an "interested third party", just like Mozilla, Google and others. It's the EC which is continuing with the case. Educate yourself before talking nonsense please.

Imagine if you built a program that would use a library you built to do certain things wether its connecting you to the internet or just handling some data processing, then having some ******s called the EU telling you that hey its not fair that your program is using your library...

Imagine that in this process, you broke the law. Should you still be free to do anything? Should there be no consequences for breaking the law?

Opera is failing

Failing? The desktop user base alone has more than doubled the last 2 years.

they can't afford to advertise, promote it and distribute it. They've admitted as much.

Wrong. They were MISQUOTED as saying that. The fact is that they HAVE done advertising.

If they get this then they should have to pay to have it done. Opera needs to go away, permanently. Since they can't afford to run their business then they shouldn't be in business.

Opera is profitable. In fact, the profits doubled last quarter.

[Boz]

@Boz

"How long has Opera been on the market?"

Funny you should ask. Opera has only been free of charge for 3-4 years. So as a small, independent company they have come quite far, especially considering Google's failure to take significant market share from Firefox despite the massive resources at their disposal.

LOL.. that's exactly the point, they've been the only browser who was actually being SOLD. They've been a major fail since 1996 and have not managed to take any significant market share in 13 years! This tells you pretty much what type of company they are.

Google is already taking their marketshare in strides and will most likely surpass them within a year. Google Chrome has been on the market about a year. Money has nothing to do with it or the size of the company. Their browser brought innovation and is extremely quick and why I like to use it sometimes too. Resources have nothing to do with it. The browser is free and plays by the same rules as Opera does. Yet they don't demand ridiculous things that Opera is.

"That's why Opera is continuing with this charade."

Opera isn't continuing anything. Opera has no authority here. Opera is just involved as an "interested third party", just like Mozilla, Google and others. It's the EC which is continuing with the case. Educate yourself before talking nonsense please.

LOL.. what? What you are talking about is nonsense.

Opera STARTED the lawsuit. So yes, they are continuing with this charade since 2007, that has escalated to simply ridiculous demands. They've had 13 freakin' years to bring innovation and offer more then IE ever did. Yet they didn't. Firefox comes, BAM in a few years it has major market share. Obviously Opera is doing something wrong and it has less to do with big bad Microsoft.

[d_ralphie]

@Boz: Yes, it used to be sold? So what? They went free in late 2005, and since that they have grown to more than 40 million desktop users in these 3-4 years.

Chrome has been on the market for about a year indeed. And Google has pushed it heavily all over the place. And yet they have failed to gain significant market share. Even the tiny independent browser Opera is ahead of them!

BTW, that link of yours clearly states:

"Opera files antitrust complaint with the EU"

Nothing about a lawsuit anywhere. And indeed, it wasn't a lawsuit. If someone robs you and you report it to the police, that is not a lawsuit. What Opera did was basically to report Microsoft's crimes to the authorities.

Spare me the whine and cheese. Firefox did it. Chrome is doing it. Safari for Windows is doing it. So much for "against all odds".

Mozilla explains how Firefox's success is proof of wrongdoings from Microsoft:

"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field. That tilt comes with the distribution channel - default status for the OS bundled Web browser."

Opera has stated that it cannot afford to advertise and promote the browser.

Wrong. Opera has a huge pile of cash. It's also profitable. They never said anything about not being able to afford advertising. On the contrary.

Opera could barely sell their browser when they charged for it and can barely give it away now that it's free. That speaks volumes.

Your ignorance is what speaks volumes. Opera has more than doubled its desktop user base in the last 2 years. Never mind their mobile browser, which is currently dominating the mobile browser market!

[Boz]

@Boz: Yes, it used to be sold? So what? They went free in late 2005, and since that they have grown to more than 40 million desktop users in these 3-4 years.

You don't see anything wrong with the only company who was charging for browsing the internet for 9 years? Awesome. No wonder they are a major failure with that type of greed.

They had 13 years to grow, yet they managed to take some small percentage in the past 3-4 years? Wow.. color me impressed.

On the other hand, Firefox was released for the first time in late 2004 and you can say it didn't get any traction until 2005 and now holds the majority of the market? What's wrong with that picture? I'll tell you, Opera.

Chrome has been on the market for about a year indeed. And Google has pushed it heavily all over the place. And yet they have failed to gain significant market share. Even the tiny independent browser Opera is ahead of them!

HOw can someone FAIL to take significant market share in a year or less than a year? You can only judge by their growth and at the end of year one of their release they already have almost 50% of Opera's marketshare worldwide and I think (not sure) more in the States. I can say with high level of security that they will surpass Opera. Same with Safari. This just proves that Opera is full of ****.

UPDATED: Actually Chrome has 3 times more marketshare than Opera - http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

BTW, that link of yours clearly states:

"Opera files antitrust complaint with the EU"

Nothing about a lawsuit anywhere. And indeed, it wasn't a lawsuit. If someone robs you and you report it to the police, that is not a lawsuit. What Opera did was basically to report Microsoft's crimes to the authorities.

You can call it a lawsuit. In corporate world it's called ANTI-TRUST COMPLAINT. That we are seeing today. You are actually now going in the other way and discussing semantics. This whole process was started by Opera alone and that was the point.

Mozilla explains how Firefox's success is proof of wrongdoings from Microsoft:

"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field. That tilt comes with the distribution channel - default status for the OS bundled Web browser."

Yet, even with IE being bundled they've managed to take major marketshare which directly contradicts their statement there. If there were companies who wanted to give the browser for free at the time prior to Firefox and have similar or better features then IE they would've had success as well. Microsoft just gave people what they wanted, a free way to browse internet.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Boz

[Eric Veteran]

What everyone here cheerfully ignores is that Mozilla is co-complainant.

What you're cheerfully ignoring is that Opera, not Mozilla, is still complaining. AFAIK, Mozilla was more than happy with just the browser ballot. Besides, this thread isn't about Mozilla or Apple or any other browser company.

[ToneKnee]

Troll. Me. You're posting post after post of unqualified emotional rants against Opera and i'm trolling.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your Quest to rid the earth of Opera.

I'll continue to stick to reality and post relevant information.

I don't know i haven't seen them publicly saying nay or yea. The 7E version was shot down by the EU itself, it needed no help from 3rd party info for that. The EU learned their lesson with Vista N and for sure aren't going to let it happen again.

For the rest the EU invited all participants to review MS's offer and that's what they do. Opera put forward some very legitimate issues and they are being considered along with all other (less outspoken) reviews.

Sorry but when did the EU say that Windows 7E wasn't good enough? I was under the impression that they are happy with either not IE included or the ballot screen, just like Google and Mozilla are happy with it. But Opera re just milking the cow and want more.

Let's be honest, Opera just want their browser installed on all Windows computers and no one else.

[Midge]

yeah, then wheen microsoft delivers an "opera patch" that nukes your pc microsoft are liable?

gtfo, firefox has no issues updating.

[d_ralphie]

@Boz: Opera is an independent company, not a Communist organization. How were they going to fund the browser? They had to charge for it. But then they added the search field, and got a deal with Google, which meant that they could finally make it free.

But anway, you are saying that making money to stay in business is greed? :D

Mozilla was free because they got lots of free money from companies like Google, Sun, Nokia, etc. They never had to make money to survive. They got everything for free.

LOL, W3schools? You are aware that those stats are for that site alone? Not exactly a representative sample :D

No, Opera did NOT sue Microsoft. Please educate yourself.

"HOw can someone FAIL to take significant market share in a year or less than a year?"

By pushing it heavily all over the place and yet having a smaller market share than tiny Opera :D

Mozilla and Google were happy about the Windows 7 E version

Wrong. Mozilla and Google were NOT happy with Microsoft's first proposal.

Let's not even talk about Apple. Why is it that noone is asking Apple to do the same?

Because Apple is not a convicted monopolist.

this is opera's agenda that they are pushing the other companies

What opera is trying to enforce on Microsoft is ridiculous and pathetic

You people need to get educated.

Opera has no authority what so ever. It's the EC which is running the show. Opera, Mozilla, Google and others have no authority, and are only involved as "interested third parties".

You need to stop whining about Opera and realize that Mozilla, Google and others have the exact same kind of involvement, and neither of them run the case.

[Boz]

Mozilla explains how Firefox's success is proof of wrongdoings from Microsoft:

"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field. That tilt comes with the distribution channel - default status for the OS bundled Web browser."

What's interesting is this is a blog really from an individual. But even with this, it's basically a rant.

One of the smartest comments posted on that blog article:

While everything you're saying is absolutely correct about how it tilts the market, I wonder how users would survive if there was no default browser and they had to choose? The problem is that, with the current state of the web, you have to already have a web browser in order to download a new one. It's a chicken and egg problem. If they don't provide one on the computer when you install the OS, there's no easy way to get one.

[d_ralphie]

Opera software has a new suggestion to EU Commission. Opera wants the updates of browsers to be integrated with Windows Update and distributed by Microsoft.

Says who?

Cite your sources please.

Well they are not the ones pursuing the lawsuit. That's all whiny Opera and EU. Mozilla requested a third party seat so it can get access to documents and the progress of the case.

Mozilla and Google have the EXACT same status as Opera does in this case. Opera didn't sue Microsoft. Opera reported Microsoft's criminal activity to the authorities, and then Mozilla and Google joined.

I'm really sickened about this. This is beyond ridiculous. A company makes the OS and provides it's users a way to access internet. There is nothing wrong with that.

I completely agree. There is something wrong with what Microsoft did, though: Abusing their dominance in the OS market to destroy competition in the browser market. Microsoft broke the law, and that has consequences.

I really don't adore Microsoft, but this is really a bunch of pitiful people with problem that Microsoft is a huge and successful company.

Wrong. Microsoft's "success" is due to their violations of the law. Are you saying that drugged athletes should be able to keep their medals even though taking drugs is against the rules??

fact they are requesting now Microsoft to completely take out IE or include their products is not seen in ANY industry

Wrong. MICROSOFT said they would remove IE. The EU said that wasn't good enough. You Microsoft shills sure fail when it comes to getting the facts right...

This is what makes it even more ridiculous. Microsoft should just give them half-assed versions of Windows 7 and be done with it.

They would be fined for ignoring the ruling of the EC. Even if Microsoft were this childish and did it out of spite (you will never run a real business, I can tell), they would quickly realize that they couldn't afford it because of the fines.

What's interesting is this is a blog really from an individual. But even with this, it's basically a rant.

This is the response of someone who cannot refute the facts.

One of the smartest comments posted on that blog article:

How is that comment "smart"? It thinks Microsoft was asked to remove IE, which is nonsense. It was MICROSOFT which wanted to remove IE, but the EU said no. Really "smart" comment which doesn't even get basic facts right :D

[jmc777]

my copy of the Opera browser auto updated... have Opera forgotten that their own browser auto updates itself?

No, they haven't. 98% of the people whining in this thread are doing so under the mistaken belief that Opera want their browser, and browser security patches, distributed via Windows/Microsoft update. They don't.

[FoxieFoxie]

No, they haven't. 98% of the people whining in this thread are doing so under the mistaken belief that Opera want their browser, and browser security patches, distributed via Windows/Microsoft update. They don't.

Latest stable has no auto updates, beta only

[Boz]

@Boz: Opera is an independent company, not a Communist organization. How were they going to fund the browser? They had to charge for it. But then they added the search field, and got a deal with Google, which meant that they could finally make it free.

They were the only one charging for the browser. And that's the problem. It's the wrong way to begin with to SELL the ability to browse internet.

But anway, you are saying that making money to stay in business is greed? :D

No, I'm saying doing for 9 years when it was obvious that people got it for free is greed or maybe it was a wrong word to describe it but it was definitely wrong. I still don't think you should pay for browser to surf internet. If you have a business model for a decade to SELL a browser. You have some issues and that's the reason why they failed and now they do whining and bitching because they can't compete. They should go do something else then instead of whining.

Mozilla was free because they got lots of free money from companies like Google, Sun, Nokia, etc. They never had to make money to survive. They got everything for free.

So? The only thing that proves is that market doesn't want to pay for browsers and you have to figure out how to make that happen and why IE is a great thing to be bundled with OS. It's free and it is there for people to access internet, those who want something else can download and install. Simple as that. The absurdity of the whole thing is that Windows is a Microsoft product. In capitalism, Microsoft should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want with their product and if you don't like it well you can go ahead and use other OS. Oh, you don't have another OS or you don't like Unix or whatever? Well nobody prevented companies to come out and make an OS. Since nobody comes out, then tough ****. Finally Google is talking about another OS and we'll see how that works out but it's a step in the right direction.

LOL, W3schools? You are aware that those stats are for that site alone? Not exactly a representative sample :D

W3schools is a good pointer. Even here where you pointed: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-monthly-200807-200908 you can clearly see that Chrome and Safari outpaced Opera.

No, Opera did NOT sue Microsoft. Please educate yourself.

They started an anti-trust suit against them. And please stop telling me to educate myself as I have provided you with the links, something you have not done. And I can assure you that I'm much more educated than you.

"HOw can someone FAIL to take significant market share in a year or less than a year?"

By pushing it heavily all over the place and yet having a smaller market share than tiny Opera :D

LOL.. How are they pushing it all over the place. They have a page for download and I have not seen any ads about Chrome. It was all based on the blogs and reviewers and how good the browser was. It's called a good product.

Wrong. Mozilla and Google were NOT happy with Microsoft's first proposal.

Will you please stop claiming things like this without links. Please show us where Mozilla and Google were not happy with the ballot. Everyone was happy and it was a very fair offer by Microsoft.

[jmc777]

Latest stable has no auto updates, beta only

V10 will have it.

[Calum Veteran]

Guys, I know people are very passionate about this issue, but please, let's have a mature discussion in here - not arguments and name calling. If you feel like "having a go" at someone or calling them a name, take a step back and a deep breath. I have had to clean this thread up a bit and am still going through it.

Please don't call people trolls, directly. If you think somebody is trolling then please report them; if we agree, action will be taken, but calling them a troll directly is against our rules.

Finally, I think anything about the EU case is relevant to this discussion. Whilst this discussion is mainly about Opera wanting more out of Microsoft (which I do find absolutely ridiculous), Google and Mozilla originally complained, along with Opera. They have not complained since, but bringing that fact up is relevant to the discussion when everyone seems to hate just Opera Software for this. Also, there is only so much you can actually say which is relevant to Opera not wanting logos on the ballot screen.

Again, if you feel something is off-topic or trolling, please report it and let us deal with it. Please do not pollute the thread further.

On topic -

I don't know how anybody who has used Opera 10 can say it "sucks" or is a bad browser? I understand it is all down to opinion, but surely you cannot deny it has some very innovative features which are not seen in other browsers? I think it is a fantastic browser, although not my default for many reasons, it definitely has the capacity to be my default browser.

Having said that, I think what Opera are complaining about is ridiculous. I thought it was too far originally, but now this? Yes, I understand that if users saw the Internet Explorer logo, a lot of the time, they would just go for that, but it is Microsoft's product and a web browser is an essential component to an operating system now-a-days - Microsoft shouldn't have to include other company's products in their product. It is Microsoft's operating system, not Opera's.

How have Microsoft done anything wrong? They cannot alter the success of their operating system - they have just put the product out there; it is the consumer which has made the operating system so popular, so how could they be doing anything against the law to "abuse their monopoly"? They aren't forcing their operating system or web browser on anybody. It is up to the consumer what they use and if they don't want to use Internet Explorer, they won't. If they don't know of any alternatives to Internet Explorer then that is their own fault for not educating themselves.

So, to sum up... I thought this whole thing was ridiculous to start with, but I can't stress how much I am disapointed in Oprera Software, with their latest 'input'. They have a fantastic browser, but they have to work for its success, just like other companys have. Mozilla didn't get anywhere by playing dirty, they got where they are today through hard work, word of mouth and promotion. Opera should take a page out of Mozilla's book.

[d_ralphie]

@Calum J. R.: "Microsoft shouldn't have to include other company's products in their product."

Actually, they should. If that is what is required to undo the damage Microsoft did to the market with their illegal actions, then that is what they will have to do. Other companies have been forced to (e.g. Coca Cola), so why should Micorsoft get special treatment?

@Calum J. R.: "How have Microsoft done anything wrong?"

They violated competition law. They didn't just bundle IE. They also bullied OEMs into not budling anything but IE, they actively tried to lock the web to IE (ActiveX anyone), etc. Microsoft basically abused their dominant position in the OS market to destroy competition in the browser market. That is illegal.

@Calum J. R.: "They cannot alter the success of their operating system"

They can alter their illegal actions. What you are saying here is that a drugged athlete who wins because of performance-enhanding drugs "cannot alter his success". But his "success" came because he broke the rules.

Microsoft broke the law. Breaking the law should and must have consequences.

They were the only one charging for the browser. And that's the problem. It's the wrong way to begin with to SELL the ability to browse internet.

I don't understand how this is relevant. Apparently selling a product means that you are "greedy". Opera is a company. It is supposed to make money. If Opera hadn't charged, they would have gone out of business. In the real world, businesses need to make money in order to survive.

What's relevant is the last 3-4 years, which is for how long Opera has been a free download. That they used to charge is only relevant if you want to study Opera's history. It wasn't until it became free of charge that they were aiming for the mass market.

No, I'm saying doing for 9 years when it was obvious that people got it for free is greed or maybe it was a wrong word to describe it but it was definitely wrong. I still don't think you should pay for browser to surf internet. If you have a business model for a decade to SELL a browser. You have some issues and that's the reason why they failed and now they do whining and bitching because they can't compete. They should go do something else then instead of whining.

Ok, so selling a product in order to stay in business is "definitely wrong". I get it. You are free to hold that opinion.

But Communism doesn't work in the real world.

And so what if Opera used to charge? They don't charge anymore. End of discussion.

You also claim that Opera "failed", but how can a company which grows its revenues 60-70% yearly (desktop revenues alone have been up more than 100% since last year) have "failed"? A company exists to make money, and Opera is not only making money, but it's growing at a rapid pace.

We can argue over market share numbers, but we will never know the truth there. All we know is that Opera's 40 million users were about 3% globally compared to the about 1.4 billion desktop computers online at the same time. We also know that Opera is much bigger in Europe than it is globally. And we know that Opera's desktop revenue has been growing more than 100% for several quarters in a row.

So? The only thing that proves is that market doesn't want to pay for browsers and you have to figure out how to make that happen

Which is what Opera did when they invented the search field and got a deal with Google. Opera was finally able to make the browser a free download. I don't understand why you are going on and on and on and on about Opera not being free 3-4 years ago. It's free now. End of discussion.

In capitalism, Microsoft should be allowed to do WHATEVER they want with their product

So in Capitalism, I should be allowed to do whatever I want with my knife, including stabbing someone in the face?

No, that's not how Capitalism works. Capitalism is not Anarchy. Capitalism includes laws to protect the free market. Microsoft violated those laws. Breaking the law has consequences. As a result of Microsoft's crimes, their right to do whatever they want with the products the broke the law with is no longer there.

W3schools is a good pointer.

No, W3schools is a single site, and not very big either. It says nothing what so ever about actual global market share.

Seriously, you need to take a course in statistics. ONE SITE is not a representative sample.

Even here where you pointed: http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-monthly-200807-200908 you can clearly see that Chrome and Safari outpaced Opera.

All you see is a bunch of fluctuations. Also, Opera hasn't launched a new desktop browser in a long time. On the other hand, both Safari and Chrome recently launched new versions. You have to look at what happens over time.

They started an anti-trust suit against them.

Opera reported Microsoft's crimes to the EC. That's what they did. It was not a lawsuit. There's a difference, which anyone with basic education will know.

And please stop telling me to educate myself as I have provided you with the links

The link that clearly shows that it was not a lawsuit?

[Lechio]

Having said that, I think what Opera are complaining about is ridiculous. I thought it was too far originally, but now this? Yes, I understand that if users saw the Internet Explorer logo, a lot of the time, they would just go for that, but it is Microsoft's product and a web browser is an essential component to an operating system now-a-days - Microsoft shouldn't have to include other company's products in their product. It is Microsoft's operating system, not Opera's.

That's the definition of abuse. They make the platform, a product that is dominant and has the biggest market share. That shouldn't give any special privileges to the products they make for their platform.

Why do you think Microsoft had to separate Microsoft Office development from Windows development?

The same should apply to their other products, like IE.

How have Microsoft done anything wrong? They cannot alter the success of their operating system - they have just put the product out there; it is the consumer which has made the operating system so popular, so how could they be doing anything against the law to "abuse their monopoly"? They aren't forcing their operating system or web browser on anybody. It is up to the consumer what they use and if they don't want to use Internet Explorer, they won't. If they don't know of any alternatives to Internet Explorer then that is their own fault for not educating themselves.

So, to sum up... I thought this whole thing was ridiculous to start with, but I can't stress how much I am disappointed in Opera Software, with their latest 'input'. They have a fantastic browser, but they have to work for it's success, just like other companies have. Mozilla didn't get anywhere by playing dirty, they got where they are today through hard work, word of mouth and promotion. Opera should take a page out of Mozilla's book.

Their success is at the cost of Mafia-like practices. Microsoft is a convicted abuser. They are in fact the worst example of a software company that has ever been in business. Blackmail, sabotage, bulling, spread of FUD, (...) they have done it all over the years. It's even worse than what Intel has been doing.

Who's playing dirty here? Opera and other software companies that are just saying enough with all the years of abuse and decided to complain over this or the Mafia giant?

[d_ralphie]

LOL.. How are they pushing it all over the place.

Well, they have been pushing it on the www.google.com front page. Isn't that the most visited page on the web? It's also all over sites like YouTube, and they are pushing it through AdSense, which is what shows ads on millions or billions of websites around the world.

I have not seen any ads about Chrome.

So you haven't visited YouTube lately? There's a permanent ad right there on the front page:

"Try YouTube in a new web browser!

Download Google Chrome"

And that's in addition to the ads that show up through AdSense on both YouTube and other sites.

Will you please stop claiming things like this without links. Please show us where Mozilla and Google were not happy with the ballot. Everyone was happy and it was a very fair offer by Microsoft.

You made the claim that they were happy with it. How about you cite your sources?

While this isn't the official response, it shows the attitude at Mozilla:

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archive..._settlemen.html

Here's the official word from the Mozilla boss herself:

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/

So as you can see, they were not happy either. In fact, there are probably more questions than answers!

[tunafish]

They violated competition law. They didn't just bundle IE. They also bullied OEMs into not budling anything but IE, they actively tried to lock the web to IE (ActiveX anyone), etc. Microsoft basically abused their dominant position in the OS market to destroy competition in the browser market. That is illegal.

I think you failed to do research there, as you would have noticed that both Dell and HP offer Firefox in their machine builds, as i had a laptop that had firefox come with it a few years ago, we had some HP desktop pc's that we bought for work and guess what they have firefox on them.

Opera is not growing at a rapid pace, look at the market shares, you will infact see how either opera stays stagnent or declines.

And locking the web to activex, what the hell are you on about, dear god! The only places that use activex are yer you guessed it, microsoft websites, like windows update etc, which is no longer used because of the intergrated vista update.

Infact it's no different than me being forced to use adobe flash player, or silverlight or any other god for saken plugin that some company desides to use. Hell i could extend the argument to codecs but i wont.

We can argue over market share numbers, but we will never know the truth there. All we know is that Opera's 40 million users were about 3% globally compared to the about 1.4 billion desktop computers online at the same time. We also know that Opera is much bigger in Europe than it is globally. And we know that Opera's desktop revenue has been growing more than 100% for several quarters in a row.

You have any source information for those figures, or did you jsut pull them out of thin air, as what i believe was linked to in 3 different sources shows Operas userbase etc is going down or stagnet, as well as it being below safari and chrome.

Seriously, you need to take a course in statistics. ONE SITE is not a representative sample.

But when prompted with 3 different sources showing market share etc you seem to ignore it, get real please. It is you who needs to take a course in statistics.

The i stopped reading your source right after i saw

(Note: This is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect Mozilla's position or any formal statement from Mozilla. I expect that Mozilla will make some kind of public comment on this topic, but this is definitely not that.)

Also show me where in here http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/ it says they are not happy, no were in there does it say they are not happy.

[tunafish]

Their success is at the cost of Mafia-like practices. Microsoft is a convicted abuser. They are in fact the worst example of a software company that has ever been in business. Blackmail, sabotage, bulling, spread of FUD, (...) they have done it all over the years. It's even worse than what Intel has been doing.

Who's playing dirty here? Opera and other software companies that are just saying enough with all the years of abuse and decided to complain over this or the Mafia giant?

Got any sources for your so called blackmail, sabotage, bulling and spread of FUD, or is it you thats trying to spread FUD and what not.

[d_ralphie]

Got any sources for your so called blackmail, sabotage, bulling and spread of FUD, or is it you thats trying to spread FUD and what not.

Are you being serious? Microsoft not spreading FUD?

Wow. Some people are either too young to have experienced Microsoft's history, or they are willfully ignoring the facts.

Here, read up on Microsoft's history of abuse. Please, educate yourself.

Come on, it's one thing to hold an opinion that there should be no consequences for breaking the law (is this just for Microsoft, or should everyone who breaks the law get away with it?). It's another to actually deny the actual facts of Microsoft's abusive history! The former is an opinion (however hypocritical and self-contradictory). The latter is just dishonest.

I think you failed to do research there, as you would have noticed that both Dell and HP offer Firefox in their machine builds

Yes, that was after US courts forced them to stop doing it. Still, they never completely stopped, at least not in Europe. My brother actually works at an OEM in Europe I won't name, and they have had their balls busted by Microsoft when they wanted to replace IE.

Opera is not growing at a rapid pace, look at the market shares, you will infact see how either opera stays stagnent or declines.

Actually, Opera has more than doubled its desktop user base in 2 years. And even the liars at Net Applications are reporting growth for Opera over time. Short term fluctuations are rather irrelevant. You need to look at the long term trends.

And locking the web to activex, what the hell are you on about, dear god! The only places that use activex are yer you guessed it, microsoft websites, like windows update etc, which is no longer used because of the intergrated vista update.

The point is that Microsoft consciously offered only things like ActiveX to do certain things, so sites had no choice but to use proprietary Microsoft technologies, effectively locking their site to Windows. This was a conscious strategy on Microsoft's part.

You have any source information for those figures, or did you jsut pull them out of thin air, as what i believe was linked to in 3 different sources shows Operas userbase etc is going down or stagnet, as well as it being below safari and chrome.

StatCounter is the most reliable stats provider, but all these stats are basically not statistically valid due to no representative sample, and a too small sample size. The Internet World Stats site lists how many people are online in total, and Opera regularly reports how many desktop users they have (Mozilla, Opera, etc. check for updates with regular intervals, and that can be used to calculate the number of active users).

Opera's user base was about 3% of the total online population as reported by Internet World Stats a few months ago.

Also show me where in here http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/ it says they are not happy, no were in there does it say they are not happy.

How about you just read it?

"However, the precise implementation will determine if the ballot approach is likely to be a useful remedy."

Then she lists a number of problems with the proposal. Are you saying that she is listing these problems/questions because she is 100% happy with it? LOL.

[Growled Member]

Their success is at the cost of Mafia-like practices. Microsoft is a convicted abuser. They are in fact the worst example of a software company that has ever been in business. Blackmail, sabotage, bulling, spread of FUD, (...) they have done it all over the years. It's even worse than what Intel has been doing.

I have to pretty much agree. Heck, anyone but a rabid Windows fanboy would have to agree. Windows and Office are brilliant products, but I fear they have been mostly made from the sweat and work of others. It's ironic that while most users in the world use Windows, fewer each day seem to enjoy using it. I think that's why we've seen the growth of alternatives. It's also ironic to me that while Microsoft is trying hard to clean up their act these days, fewer people trust them than ever before because of their terrible past.

That said, I still don't agree with what Opera is doing. They seem to be bullying Microsoft using the EU. It's just as wrong for one side to bully as it is the other.

[Skulltrail]

Since this EU Trust crap began, I've grown to dislike Europeans... :D

Europe is bossing around Microsoft because MS chose to install their OWN FREAKING internet browser on their OWN FREAKING operating system. Since when do others (especially those from other countries) chose what comes with the operating system? Honestly, if you don't want IE, don't use it. It has been that way since IE was first bundled into Windows (after almost a dozen years since that, Europe gets frustrated and decides to complain and torment)

I personally don't use IE and don't care that it is on my PC. I don't choose to uninstall it because of the shear fact that it may one day come in handy when Firefox and Chrome go berserk in one instance.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but MS is being bullied for the selfish interests of 3rd party internet browsers like Opera and Firefox.