Opera Wants More From Microsoft

[tunafish]

Funny thing you should mention Internet World Stats, because for the source of browser stats guess who they link to

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Oh which also shows operas marketshare going down. Which must also mean current users must also be ya you guessed it going down as well.

Current opera userbase is around 2%, not 3%

You keep spouting on that operas user base has doubled and theres like 40 million of them or whatever but you have yet to prove any stats or source or anything like that, all you keep spouting on about is statcounter, which is one site, yet theres loads of other sites out there that show way way different trends to what your spouting on about.

Funny thing is im not based in the US, im based in the UK and i can tell you now Dell and HP have offered alternatives for ages! Hell even Acers have firefox.......

Your just to pig headed to take the time to reasearch and look at facts, your just blinded by trying to defend some single company as if you owe it to them.

And before anyone asks this is comming from someone who has linux, microsoft windows, mac osx and uses a wide selection of browsers.

I use safari on mac, firefox on linux and windows as well as IE8.

I dual boot linux and windows on my new laptop, at work i use windows at home i use linux.

And yes i have opera on my phone, yet that option was forced onto me.......

Now im no longer going to be posting on this topic, why well because of 2 things really

If i continue i will ultimatly end up getting a warning and quite frankly i dont want that

I see there is no point continuing a debate with someone who ultimatly seems to be out to just start an argument in the first place.

Tunafish over and out

[d_ralphie]

Funny thing you should mention Internet World Stats, because for the source of browser stats guess who they link to

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Oh which also shows operas marketshare going down.

It doesn't matter what IWS links to. The stats at W3schools are for that site alone, a minor site on the web. Even a child will realize that it is not a representative sample. I can't believe I have to waste my time to educate people here about the basic of statistics.

Current opera userbase is around 2%, not 3%

Wrong. Again, the hard numbers show 3%.

You keep spouting on that operas user base has doubled and theres like 40 million of them or whatever but you have yet to prove any stats or source or anything like that

Opera regularly report it when they report their financials (which means that they are required by law to be accurate in their reporting, otherwise they would be fined): http://www.opera.com/company/investors/finance/

all you keep spouting on about is statcounter, which is one site, yet theres loads of other sites out there that show way way different trends to what your spouting on about.

I mention StatCounter because it has actually been the most accurate, and correctly reported Opera at 3%.

But all of this stats nonsense is irrelevant. We know for a fact that Opera has doubled its actual user base in 2 years. We also know for a fact that the company is profitable, is growing massively, and has a lot of cash.

Funny thing is im not based in the US, im based in the UK and i can tell you now Dell and HP have offered alternatives for ages! Hell even Acers have firefox.......

It doesn't matter where you are based. We are not discussing you.

Your just to pig headed to take the time to reasearch and look at facts, your just blinded by trying to defend some single company as if you owe it to them.

The way you are blindly defending Microsoft and attacking Opera because you refuse to look at the facts?

And yes i have opera on my phone, yet that option was forced onto me.......

Opera is not a monopolist, so the comparison is just crazy.

I see there is no point continuing a debate with someone who ultimatly seems to be out to just start an argument in the first place.

So anyone who corrects your errors is "just out to start an argument"? Wow.

Edited August 15, 2009 by d_ralphie

[brentaal]

I mention StatCounter because it has actually been the most accurate, and correctly reported Opera at 3%.

StatCounter reports Opera's market share as 2.65%. (Safari - 3.2%, Chrome - 3.28%)

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-monthly-200807-200908

[d_ralphie]

StatCounter reports Opera's market share as 2.65%.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser-ww-monthly-200807-200908

You need to look at statistics over time, not short-term fluctuations. Opera is definitely 3% globally. But this does prove just how useless "global" stats are in general. There are just too many error sources. Even StatCounter, which is the most reliable, gets it wrong.

Since this EU Trust crap began, I've grown to dislike Europeans... :D

Yes, racism and xenophobia are rampant even in 2009.

Europe is bossing around Microsoft because MS chose to install their OWN FREAKING internet browser on their OWN FREAKING operating system.

No, the EU is bossing around Microsoft because Microsoft broke the law.

Since when do others (especially those from other countries) chose what comes with the operating system?

Since the time Microsoft broke the law.

It has been that way since IE was first bundled into Windows (after almost a dozen years since that, Europe gets frustrated and decides to complain and torment)

So because a crime has been going on for a long time, the criminal should not be dealt with?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but MS is being bullied for the selfish interests of 3rd party internet browsers like Opera and Firefox.

You are wrong. Microsoft is facing the consequences of breaking the law. Breaking the law is definitely a "selfish interest", so it's interesting that you accuse those who reported the crime to the authorities of that. Is it OK that Microsoft is selfish, but not others?

[Boz]

Wow. Some people are either too young to have experienced Microsoft's history, or they are willfully ignoring the facts.

Here, read up on Microsoft's history of abuse. Please, educate yourself.

LOL.. you have to do is read this from that document you posted or whatever.. Some of it is just downright ridiculous.

For more than two decades, Microsoft has engaged in a carefully designed and extremely successful campaign to protect and extend its monopolies. Microsoft has repeatedly made market allocation proposals to its competitors and has used a broad range of other anti-competitive and unlawful tactics to eliminate potential rivals, including tying, predatory

product design, and intentional deception. Microsoft owns several monopoly products, including its Windows operating system and Office suite of productivity applications.4 These monopolies are extremely lucrative: Microsoft generates more than $60 billion each year, largely from Windows and Office.5 It has profit margins of 77% and 65% for these two monopoly products.6 Over the years, Microsoft has carefully cultivated and expanded the barriers to entry protecting these monopolies.

I mean this is hilarious. What is written here is BASIC PRINCIPLE OF CAPITALISM. You evaluate the market, your develop products and you try to expand your marketshare and protect your investments/products or services through smart and carefully designed campaigns and business practices. Every single company on free market thinks and works this way. If you see you are losing marketshare you will try to do any business move to keep you ahead. If that means you want to buy your competitor, HEY that's ok.. nobody can force someone to sell out. If you believe that your product can be successful, stay true to your principles work hard and you will succeed. Microsoft did it the same way, and they had TOUGH competition like IBM and Sun and others.

It has been proven so many times so far that Microsoft doesn't have such a foothold as everyone thinks or says. Google, a complete unknown has grown into a giant. It has done so with an ease and innovation and simplicity without any problems. Microsoft has done the same with Office and Windows. They have created an OS and Office Suite that were far ahead of competition and took the market by storm. From there they kept adding things and evolving.

Those who are too young, I remember quite well Word Perfect and Fox Pro and other products that were "seemingly" destroyed by Microsoft and I can clearly remember as it was yesterday that these applications and databases and other similar tools were nowhere near the capability and innovation that Microsoft brought with their products, thus it was a logical choice for people to use a better product. I don't remember one instance where so called Microsoft's monopoly prevented me from running any other competing product. I did and they were never as good as Microsoft's versions. After Corel bought Word Perfect things went down even further.

You can't blame someone for holding a majority of marketshare because they created great products and had majority of market use them. If someone could create an OS or Office suite that was as good as Office or Windows they could've done so. Yet it didn't happen. Even when IBM was stronger than Microsoft OS/2 Warp was never as good or accepted as Windows. Apple created Mac OS and OSX but they never managed to create a major marketshare, not because Microsoft didn't want them to, but because their internal business plan was not towards great OS marketshare but exclusivity. Quite the contrary, Microsoft helped them get out of bankruptcy.

Most of these complaints against Microsoft are really completely ridiculous and are basic capitalism principles that any corporation would do if they created useful software. Yet when a company gets successful in the market that starts scaring everyone and they will do whatever they can to prevent them from staying on top. It is just a matter of time we will see a bunch of issues with Google.

Now, if Microsoft did things like prevent other companies' applications or services from running on their OS or specifically prevented their Office formats to be read by 3rd party applications and suits that's something to evaluate. I'm not saying they are completely innocent, they did push some things beyond legal means and they were rightfully punished, but anything other than that is simply idiotic and completely unwarranted. If they develop a product and integrate browsers or applications and still allow people to install competing products, I really don't see a problem. It's their OS, it's their money they invested in building and they have the right to bundle whatever they want. If you are a great programmer or innovative company your product will be picked over something inferior. Just like today, majority of people use Google, just like majority of people uses Firefox, just like majority of people uses WinRar or WinZip over Windows' native zip stuff or Photoshop or other applications for image editing instead of Windows default ones. The list goes on. It is Microsoft's perogative to give their customers free options that are included in the price of the OS.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Boz

[Lechio]

Got any sources for your so called blackmail, sabotage, bulling and spread of FUD, or is it you thats trying to spread FUD and what not.

There's a complete Wikipedia entry on their practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

It's not hard to find sources, just do a search on a search engine for the words Microsoft + antitrust/lawsuits/abuse/(...).

Any search engine will show you documentation and facts on this, except for Microsoft's own search engine Bing. :rofl:

[brentaal]

You need to look at statistics over time

You said 3% is supported by StatCounter. If that's true, show those stats. I've shown the latest available stats by StatCounter with the largest time span selected in the graph and they don't support your claim.

Furthermore, you said Chrome failed, despite having a larger market than Opera, who's been here for like - 13 years? What's with that? Wouldn't that mean that Opera failed too?

[d_ralphie]

@brentaal: "You said 3% is supported by StatCounter."

Which it is. Over the past 6 months, Opera has about 3%.

@brentaal: "Furthermore, you said Chrome failed, despite having a larger market than Opera, who's been here for like - 13 years?"

Opera has only been free of charge for 3-4 years. Those are the only years that count, really, since that's when Opera really started gaining users.

LOL.. you have to do is read this from that document you posted or whatever.. Some of it is just downright ridiculous.

So you deny the facts presented in the document?

I mean this is hilarious. What is written here is BASIC PRINCIPLE OF CAPITALISM. You evaluate the market, your develop products and you try to expand your marketshare and protect your investments/products or services through smart and carefully designed campaigns and business practices. Every single company on free market thinks and works this way.

You seem to be somewhat confused. Capitalism is NOT Anarchy. Capitalism includes laws that protect the free market.

It has been proven so many times so far that Microsoft doesn't have such a foothold as everyone thinks or says. Google, a complete unknown has grown into a giant.

What, Google has grown into a desktop OS giant? That's news to me. Could you tell me the name of this desktop OS by Google which has dethroned Windows as the dominant OS?

You can't blame someone for holding a majority of marketshare because they created great products and had majority of market use them.

I completely agree. You can, however, blame someone for doing this by breaking the law.

Even when IBM was stronger than Microsoft OS/2 Warp was never as good or accepted as Windows.

What, you mean like OS/2, which was a collaboration between them until Microsoft suddenly quit, and stole all the IP in order to create Windows NT?

Most of these complaints against Microsoft are really completely ridiculous and are basic capitalism principles that any corporation would do if they created useful software.

Basic Capitalist principles do not include breaking the law. You can't blame Capitalism for people's violations. That's just a Communist thing to do.

It is just a matter of time we will see a bunch of issues with Google.

Yes, if Google abuses its dominance, there will be issues

If they develop a product and integrate browsers or applications and still allow people to install competing products, I really don't see a problem.

The problem is that they illegally abused their OS monopoly to destroy competition in the browser market.

It's their OS, it's their money they invested in building and they have the right to bundle whatever they want.

They broke the law, which means that they aren't anymore.

[Lechio]

Since this EU Trust crap began, I've grown to dislike Europeans...

Chill mate. It's understandable that someone can be influenced by all of the FUD and propaganda originated by some people who see an interest in that. But don't get to that point. :)

Here's something that can help you out with all of that negativeness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g263N4XzoZo

[Boz]

What, you mean like OS/2, which was a collaboration between them until Microsoft suddenly quit, and stole all the IP in order to create Windows NT?

What the hell are you talking about. Microsoft didn't steal anything from them, they still have a broad licensing they pay. You really have misguided hatred and gotta stop blaming Microsoft for everything... OS/2 Warp failed for other reasons and the intent from Bill Gates was noble. They wanted to create an OS that would be far more advanced then anything on the market. Only when OS/2 Warp started failing due to many reasons from IBM side, it was clear it wouldn't make any real progress. They were over promising and under delivering. On the other hand Windows was just gaining popularity.

Here's a brief history for those interested.

Operating System/2 (OS/2) was originally developed as a joint project between IBM and Microsoft. It's intention was to replace the antiquated Disk Operating System (DOS) as the operating system of choice. At the time, DOS was at version 3.x, and IBM and Microsoft both realized that with the advent of the Intel 80286 in the mid-1980's, it was quickly becoming obsolete. Thus, OS/2 was born, initially as a 16-bit, command-line based operating system. Microsoft worked closely with IBM up to version 1.3. While IBM worked on the "guts," they worked on the new graphical user interface that was due for later versions. OS/2's kernel was developed by IBM from the ground up as the Personal Computer (PC) version of a mainframe operating system, with all of the time-slicing, stability, and other features previously existing solely on those high-end machines. Around this time (circa 1990), Microsoft's other project, Windows, now at version 3.0, was starting to gain popularity with some users. Previously, Windows had been little more than a task-swapping shell for DOS applications, and was intended to compete with QuarterDeck's DesqView. Users found it appealing becaused it contained some of the GUI elements that were being developed for OS/2. A decision was made to drop all support for OS/2, and go strictly with Windows. However, because of the history they had with IBM, and because they still used so much of their technology (Object Linking and Embedding [OLE] aka ActiveX and Component Object Model [COM] are derived from Dynamic Data Exchange [DDE]), Microsoft to this day maintains a broad-ranging cross-licensing agreement with them. Windows NT was partially based on the OS/2 work that they did for IBM, and Windows 95 also borrows heavily from this code.

With Microsoft no longer doing development on the user interface, IBM was faced with creating this themselves. In this timeframe, a deal was made with Commodore. Commodore licensed IBM's REXX scripting language for inclusion in their AmigaOS, and IBM took many GUI design ideas from the AmigaOS for their new GUI. With the release of OS/2 2.0, the WorkPlace Shell (WPS) user interface was born. OS/2 was now a 32-bit operating system, with a fully object-oriented graphical user interface. Based on IBM's System Object Model (SOM), the WorkPlace Shell is still the model for all graphical user interfaces, since nothing else has come even close to providing the same functionality. OS/2 2.1 and 2.11 followed, including a version of 2.11 with full Symmetric Multi-Processing (SMP) support. OS/2 2.x won over many Windows 3.x users because of it's ability to run Windows programs seamlessly, while maintaining a stable system, something that Windows had trouble doing. IBM even went so far as to trademark the term "Crash-Proof."

If you have such hate for Windows and Microsoft, you should just stop using all of their software. Simple as that. Nobody is "forcing" you to use it. You can use Linux, you can buy a mac and run OSX. To go on and on about this hatred and still use Windows and Microsoft software is pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Boz

[brentaal]

Opera has only been free of charge for 3-4 years. Those are the only years that count, really, since that's when Opera really started gaining users.

Opera has been free since 6th December 2000. That's more than 8 and a half years.

[d_ralphie]

Opera has been free since 6th December 2000. That's more than 8 and a half years.

Actually, you had to pay to get rid of the ads until late 2005. People don't want ads in browsers. So it wasn't until the ads were removed that Opera started actually getting millions of users. From perhaps a few thousand, and to to 40-50 million users in 3-4 years isn't too bad when you consider the fact that Opera is the only independent browser vendor. Everyone else is backed by some huge corporation and don't need to actually make money off of the browser to survive.

OS/2 Warp failed for other reasons and the intent from Bill Gates was noble.

LOL. Microsoft blatantly lied, and claimed that they were going for OS/2, while at the same time using what they learned from OS/2 and putting it into Windows. They had no intention to use OS/2, but lied about it.

If you have such hate for Windows and Microsoft, you should just stop using all of their software.

Unfortunately it's impossible to stop using Microsoft products completely. My bank only works in IE, for example. I would switch, but I can't due to reasons I won't discuss here.

As for "hate", the only hate I see here is from people who think Capitalism == Anarchy, and who hate Opera, Mozilla and Google for reporting Microsoft's crimes to the authorities. The only hate is from people who lack knowledge, and who defend Microsoft no matter what.

Anyway, I notice that you were really eager to forget about the document I linked you to. How about reading it to educate yourself instead of rejecting it out of hand because it contradicts your rose-tinted vision of Microsoft?

[Boz]

Unfortunately it's impossible to stop using Microsoft products completely.

Why? You can do same things with alternative platoforms and applications. Oh wait, but it doesn't have all the things Microsoft's software has. Clearly Microsoft's fault.

My bank only works in IE, for example. I would switch, but I can't due to reasons I won't discuss here.

That evil Microsoft! Oh wait, you would use another bank that works with other browsers but you can't. Got it! Clearly Microsoft's criminal intent and plan.

Microsoft blatatly lied, and claimed that they were going for OS/2, while at the same time using what they learned from OS/2 and putting it into Windows. They had no intention to use OS/2, but lied about it.

Again, you are inventing things. You can't steal something when you pay licensing for it. You arguments are based on thin air.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Boz

[waldenasta]

Dont know Turkish but I do know firefox extension babel!

[BoomyBoy]

Dont know Turkish but I do know firefox extension babel!

Blah it doesn't even translate properly :p I'm an interpreter lol =D

[d_ralphie]

Why? You can do same things with alternative platoforms and applications.

Not if you want to open web pages, read documents, etc. in the real world.

That evil Microsoft! Oh wait, you would use another bank that works with other browsers but you can't. Got it! Clearly Microsoft's criminal intent and plan.

Yes, it is and has has always been a conscious strategy by Microsoft to cause lock-in. Just the last couple of years they have managed to mess up ECMAScript 4, and they kept stalling in the CSS WG:

CSS:

http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/ind...SS-WG-Microsoft

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-st...07Dec/0094.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-st...07Dec/0084.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-st...07Dec/0076.html

ECMAScript 4:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2007...b-scripting.ars

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/arc...ris_wilson.html

https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discu...ber/001309.html

Again, you are inventing things. You can't steal something when you pay licensing for it. You arguments are based on thin air.

Actually, Microsoft did lie to everyone. They did claim that they were going for OS/2, but they secretly used stuff from OS/2 in Windows, and then stabbed IBM in the back. Just another backstabbing incident by Microsoft. Read the document I linked to for more. You did read it by now, right?

Also, I'm wondering if you still think that Capitalism is Anarchy.

[DDStriker]

Imagine that in this process, you broke the law. Should you still be free to do anything? Should there be no consequences for breaking the law?

There was consequencies they copped a massive fine

should one have to pay forever?

if you commit a crime and pay for you're crime do i still get to punish you further?

Please don't call people trolls, directly. If you think somebody is trolling then please report them; if we agree, action will be taken, but calling them a troll directly is against our rules.

Finally, I think anything about the EU case is relevant to this discussion. Whilst this discussion is mainly about Opera wanting more out of Microsoft (which I do find absolutely ridiculous), Google and Mozilla originally complained, along with Opera. They have not complained since, but bringing that fact up is relevant to the discussion when everyone seems to hate just Opera Software for this. Also, there is only so much you can actually say which is relevant to Opera not wanting logos on the ballot screen.

Again, if you feel something is off-topic or trolling, please report it and let us deal with it. Please do not pollute the thread further.

My apologizes for the name calling; having my credibility criticized by someone who is bringing up another topic to attack my post just seemed somewhat random unless i missed something..in any case i have no real grief with opera (the browser) just the company and their methods :s

I don't know how anybody who has used Opera 10 can say it "sucks" or is a bad browser? I understand it is all down to opinion, but surely you cannot deny it has some very innovative features which are not seen in other browsers? I think it is a fantastic browser, although not my default for many reasons, it definitely has the capacity to be my default browser.

Well...lets say i just found out theres an opera 10 :p I've used older versions and i saw no advantage to using it over existing browsers firefox and chrome seem to have become very popular while opera has been left in the dark i still don't see how thats microsoft's fault

i'll need to install the latest opera and reassess could you elaborate on its unique features?

i stick with chrome for its efficient implementation of js and very clean interface (more web space less gui) and i use firefox for its firebug plugin great for debugging/testing code

I just don't see what opera would have to offer (asaik chrome can execute js the fastest; and rendering speed is great aswell (thanks to webkit :D))

[Lechio]

Why? You can do same things with alternative platforms and applications. Oh wait, but it doesn't have all the things Microsoft's software has. Clearly Microsoft's fault.

You obviously can. What are those "things" you talk about?

I use Linux with other Free Software, and I can do the same as I would do if using Microsoft software. As a matter a fact I can do so much more, Windows has a lot of limitations...

That evil Microsoft! Oh wait, you would use another bank that works with other browsers but you can't. Got it! Clearly Microsoft's criminal intent and plan.

Lockdown.

[KeeperOfThePizza]

So uh... I guess thats why they call it Sin City heh heh.

[ncoday]

What everyone here cheerfully ignores is that Mozilla is co-complainant.

Mozilla is not the one that keeps whining for more and more like Opera's CEO

[Growled Member]

Since this EU Trust crap began, I've grown to dislike Europeans... :D

Hehe, I dislike everyone to start with so that may be why I'm not affected more. :laugh:

Not that everyone cares. They are too busy trying to prove their point, like that means anything. :D

[MistaT40]

Opera honestly is really pushing it. If they are proposing this "update" not just for them, but for every browser software outthere - then they should all contribute to the development and support costs and not leave it up to MS. And how would this apply to Linux & Apple? BS

[d_ralphie]

Mozilla is not the one that keeps whining for more and more like Opera's CEO

Wrong: http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/

BTW, since when is giving one's opinion on something when asked by a journalist considered "whining"?

There was consequencies they copped a massive fine

should one have to pay forever?

As far as I know, they have never paid a fine in the EU for their illegal actions in the browser market.

if you commit a crime and pay for you're crime do i still get to punish you further?

If I keep commiting the crime, yes certainly.

i have no real grief with opera (the browser) just the company and their methods :s

So you have a real grief with reporting criminal activities to the authorities? Wow.

Well...lets say i just found out theres an opera 10 :p I've used older versions and i saw no advantage to using it over existing browsers firefox and chrome seem to have become very popular while opera has been left in the dark i still don't see how thats microsoft's fault

Opera has more users than Chrome, so if Chrome is very popular, then so is Opera.

i'll need to install the latest opera and reassess could you elaborate on its unique features?

I just don't see what opera would have to offer (asaik chrome can execute js the fastest

Chrome's JS engine is irrelevant on the real web. It was created specifically to do well at artificial benchmarks like V8 and SunSpider. Improved JS won't really help much on today's sites since JS is not the main bottleneck today.

[dead.cell]

How about sticking to the topic at hand?

Windows Update is for updating Microsoft products and drivers that simply allow us to get things working faster. If I want to update Firefox, well... it updates itself! Or how about Google Chrome? I don't even half to SEE a message about it updating, as it's completely silent! Oh, I like to run Steam too, and it... updates itself! I could really sit here and go on and on, but you get the point.

Honestly, if every piece of software I owned went through WU, I'd probably be updating 24/7, wasting bandwidth on products I may not use that often, for updates I may or may not want. Hell, that's not even getting into the fact that some software updates break certain features and/or cause major malfunctions with the application altogether. Microsoft has messed up a few times as well, but I'd hate to see it happen with every piece of software I have. One could argue that I could read up on the updates for each piece of software that "needs" updating, but even then, I'd be reading indefinitely. Why not just read up when I actually plan to use the product, and get the various updates I may have missed rolled up in the latest update?

Sitting on neither side of the pro/anti-Microsoft fence, I say as a user that this is stupid. Waste of bandwidth, time, and resources in general. I'd suggest software developers wanting a centralized program to perhaps create one, but then the thought that comes across my mind is: who pays for the resources? Would each developer pay a hosting fee? Would they measure bandwidth used as well? Or would it just link to mirrors (which would defeat the purpose)? I mean, there's a lot to take into consideration here, much more than what I've mentioned alone. I know Stardock was attempting at creating a Steam-like application, only with software as well. Aside from it being a completely mismanaged flop (my opinion), the idea is still there.

My question though, to all those who feel Opera is right in saying this is, what's the plan here guys? Make Microsoft pay for everything or what? Or did you guys just jump out with what you call a "problem", with no thoughts as to a solution?

On the preemptive, it doesn't matter who said it, I still think the idea is stupid. Doesn't matter if it came from Google, Mozilla, my mother, or whoever.

Edited August 15, 2009 by dead.cell

[Eice]

If I keep commiting the crime, yes certainly.

I find it really surprising that people here have allowed the Opera trolls to keep repeating this lie as their final bastion of defense for so long.

Please provide evidence that any body of authority has actually decided that Microsoft is guilty in this case.