Opera Wants More From Microsoft

[Pupik]

that's a bizarre argument. Usual everyday users have 1 browser installed. So that's 1 update check. So it doesn't matter if it's IE or FF or Opera, it's the same bandwidth.

Uh, that's not actually how Windows Update works. Windows Update only checks for updates for installed applications on your machine, and not all available.

For example if you have an XBOX360 gamepad connected to the PC, WU will check for update for it and tell you that there are new drivers available for it.

Same when you got a ATI card installed, and you receive update on the drivers for the card, and not Nvidia's card.

So at the end, the more applications WU need to check updates for, the more bandwidth is used. And I don't see any reason Microsoft should even consider updating a none essential application.

And despite what some users say, every application (browser or not) that comes bundled with the operating system, is an essential application and need to be stayed updated.

[petrossa]

Uh, that's not actually how Windows Update works. Windows Update only checks for updates for installed applications on your machine, and not all available.

Sorry but hey listen. If WU checks for a IE update or checks for a FF update it's the same. If you have FF installed that means you haven't IE installed so i fail to see how your excess bandwidth works out.

Or do you mean is it true what they say, IE is to integrated to really get out so it is an extra check if you install another default browser??:wacko::

[Lechio]

The argument wasn't about the length of the update check. It was about the used bandwidth in the first place.

And if you multiply only the data that used to result a "no new updates available" by x millions (a small percentage of Windows machines worldwide), it's a lot of used bandwidth (without even downloading any updates).

You understand how a package manager works, correct?

Basic principles of a package manager when it needs to search for available updates:

• Reads a list of servers from its configuration file⁽¹⁾;
  
• Query each of those servers;
  
• Downloads a small-sized compressed file from those servers, containing the list of packages that are provided and their versions;
  
• Update done.
  

_{(1)Sample of a configuration file used on Debian Linux systems (don't shoot me for making this comparison):}

deb http://ftp.eq.uc.pt/software/unix/Linux/debian testing main non-free contrib
deb http://ftp.eq.uc.pt/software/unix/Linux/debian-multimedia testing main
deb http://deb.opera.com/opera/ stable non-free

Notice how local mirrors are used to accomplish maximum download speeds and ease load on the main servers.

Also notice the Opera line there, Opera provides its own updates using its own servers...

Hope that this gets cleared up now.

[Pupik]

Sorry but hey listen. If WU checks for a IE update or checks for a FF update it's the same. If you have FF installed that means you haven't IE installed so i fail to see how your excess bandwidth works out.

Or do you mean is it true what they say, IE is to integrated to really get out so it is an extra check if you install another default browser??:wacko::

No, it's not the same. IE is Microsoft's product, while Firefox is not. Each need to be updated by it's developer, through it's own updater.

It works now (even though Opera is a bit late on it's updater), and so it should stay like that.

And what's this about uninstalling IE, while using Firefox? Been using Firefox for years, and never had to uninstall IE.

You understand how a package manager works, correct?

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Since when Windows is a Unix-based operating system?

[Lechio]

And despite what some users say, every application (browser or not) that comes bundled with the operating system, is an essential application and need to be stayed updated.

Good job on implying that with that comment I was saying an application does not need to be up-to-date... (Y)

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Since when Windows is a Unix-based operating system?

You distort everything. Now it's getting ridiculous... Who said anything about Windows being a UNIX-based operating system?? Where did that came from?

[d_ralphie]

Windows Update is for updating Microsoft products and drivers that simply allow us to get things working faster. If I want to update Firefox, well... it updates itself!

Why does everyone keep talking about Windows Update?

The thread starter has failed to produce evidence that Opera wants to be part of Windows Update.

Honestly, if every piece of software I owned went through WU, I'd probably be updating 24/7, wasting bandwidth on products I may not use that often, for updates I may or may not want.

You mean like the way everything in Windows is being updated even if you don't use it?

Please provide evidence that any body of authority has actually decided that Microsoft is guilty in this case.

So you are saying that Microsoft is completely innocent?

Which is exactly why Opera is behaving in such a pathetically shameless manner. They stand to gain a lot more than they lose, hence their going all-out.

So Opera sharing its opinion is "going all-out"? You are aware that Opera has no authority over the EU or Microsoft, right? All they have been doing is to answer questions from journalists who ask for their opinion because they reported Microsoft's crimes in the first place, right?

Nobody has decided that bundling IE with Windows is a crime.

Bundling is not a crime. Predatory bundling is. The EC has come to a preliminary conclusion that, yes, Microsoft did break the law. Now there's the formalities: The final judgement, and what Microsoft needs to do to undo the damage they dealt the market with their illegal activities.

A pity that this advice doesn't really work when the teacher (EU) is on the bully's (Opera) side.

Ok, so anyone who reports a crime to the authorities is a "bully"?

How is Opera "bullying" Microsoft exactly?

And remember, Opera is tiny compared to Microsoft. But I guess you will defend Microsoft to the death, willfull ignorance and all.

[petrossa]

And what's this about uninstalling IE, while using Firefox? Been using Firefox for years, and never had to uninstall IE.

you've have to read the newspapers more often?:whistle::

Browser ballot rings a bell? Where you can choose which browser you install??

[Pupik]

You distort everything. Now it's getting ridiculous... You said anything about Windows being a UNIX-based operating system?? Where did that came from?

Oh, sorry. I shouldn't have go completely off-topic and mentioned package management system.

you've have to read the newspapers more often :whistle:

Browser ballot rings a bell? Where you can choose which browser you install?

The ballot screen (that opera is so against, because IE's icon is too recognizable) gives an option to install other browser and not make IE as default one, in the first run of IE. Since Windows E never going to happen, IE is still comes bundled with the operating system.

[d_ralphie]

That's funny considering Opera has said they don't have the cash to get the browser on OEM machines and doesn't have the budget for advertising like the others do. The article was here on Neowin.

Yeah, except the "no budget for advertising" was BS:

http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2009/04/2...-on-advertising

Does anyone actually read previous comments before posting nonsense?

Also, yes, Opera has lots of cash. But Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, etc. have a LOT MORE. MS and Google have bucketloads of cash from their main businesses, and Mozilla gets donations (other people are paying the bills). Opera is the only independent browser vendor which has to stand on its own and pay its own bills. So whatever Opera can pay, it's just pocket change to the companies who make all their money from other things than browsers.

[hjf288]

Why does everyone keep talking about Windows Update?

The thread starter has failed to produce evidence that Opera wants to be part of Windows Update.

You mean like the way everything in Windows is being updated even if you don't use it?

So you are saying that Microsoft is completely innocent?

So Opera sharing its opinion is "going all-out"? You are aware that Opera has no authority over the EU or Microsoft, right? All they have been doing is to answer questions from journalists who ask for their opinion because they reported Microsoft's crimes in the first place, right?

Bundling is not a crime. Predatory bundling is. The EC has come to a preliminary conclusion that, yes, Microsoft did break the law. Now there's the formalities: The final judgement, and what Microsoft needs to do to undo the damage they dealt the market with their illegal activities.

Ok, so anyone who reports a crime to the authorities is a "bully"?

How is Opera "bullying" Microsoft exactly?

And remember, Opera is tiny compared to Microsoft. But I guess you will defend Microsoft to the death, willfull ignorance and all.

I never understood the rabid fanboyism for defending a company.

Opera complains too much rather than taking action to establish itself, it just moans and moans...

Like a driver in a truck stuck in mud, rather than get out and evaluate the situation and do something, he just sits there calling his buddies bitching about the problem rather than solving it.

[d_ralphie]

hjf288 says:

"I never understood the rabid fanboyism for defending a company."

So why are YOU defending Microsoft? And why are you commenting on this case even though you evidently lack even a basic understanding of the matter.

its about Opera gaining a small amount of leverage over microsoft due to the EU's lack of reasoning, its about opera abusing its stance to help advertise their browser

So what you are saying is that Opera should refuse to answer questions when a journalist contacts them and asks questions about the antitrust case against Microsoft?

my real grief is with them being ******** and taking advantage of a situation that doesn't call for it they shouldn't have any say in the kind of punishment microsoft should suffer that should be purely upto to EU yet opera keeps whispering in their ears about these pointless changes

It IS up to the EU. Does that mean that Opera can't be allowed to hold an opinion? Your logic is just bizarre. You seem to think that Opera is in any kind of position of authority. But all they are doing is to answer questions from journalists on the antitrust case, and offering their point of view.

Do we live in the Soviet Union or something? No, free speech remains free.

Last i checked chrome had a larger market share

It doesn't.

opera has been out for a long time

Opera has been available for free for 3-4 years.

It raised the bar and its very relevant for the real web i know alot of javascript heavy websites that greatly benefited from this new compiled js approach

Except they didn't. First of all, Apple did this before Google. Secondly, even the most JS-heavy sites today won't benefit from these optimizations.

greatly cutting down rendering time

EXACTLY! Rendering time. The bottleneck on sites today is not JS, but other things like rendering, CSS, etc.

Yes, it will be great in the future, but the point was: SunSpider and the V8 benchmarks are IRRELEVANT to today's real world sites. They are just pure marketing, and testing for a tiny and specific part of JS, and if the JS engine is using those specific optimizations.

[Lechio]

Oh, sorry. I shouldn't have go completely off-topic and mentioned package management system.

What was described was The Basic principles of a package manager/updater when it needs to search for available updates, an example using the apt system was given.

This may all come as news to you, but guess what? Other systems and applications follow the same basic principles, including applications made for Windows.

And where was that off-topic? Maybe the part where you implied that I've said Windows was UNIX-based...?

[petrossa]

Oh, sorry. I shouldn't have go completely off-topic and mentioned package management system.

The ballot screen (that opera is so against, because IE's icon is too recognizable) gives an option to install other browser and not make IE as default one, in the first run of IE. Since Windows E never going to happen, IE is still comes bundled with the operating system.

You REALLY should read more before posting. (why do i even bother)?

[d_ralphie]

The ballot screen (that opera is so against, because IE's icon is too recognizable)

Huh?

When did Opera say that they were against a ballot screen?

All that link shows is that someone from Opera comments on how the IE logo has a huge advantage, and there's no denying that.

[Eice]

So you are saying that Microsoft is completely innocent?

Let's cut the crap, shall we? Show us proof where any body of authority has decided that Microsoft bundling IE with Windows is a crime, or simply be exposed as the serial liar you are.

[d_ralphie]

Show us proof where any body of authority has decided that Microsoft bundling IE with Windows is a crime

Once again, are you really denying any wrongdoing on the part of Microsoft?

Are you denying that IE's inclusion in Windows gives it a huge advantage over other browsers, and that its dominance is a result of said bundling? Are you also denying that Microsoft has been willfully violating standards, even going so far as to sabotage standards?

[Pupik]

What was described was The Basic principles of a package manager/updater when it needs to search for available updates, an example using the apt system was given.

This may all come as news to you, but guess what? Other systems and applications follow the same basic principles, including applications made for Windows.

And where was that off-topic? Maybe the part where you implied that I've said Windows was UNIX-based...?

"Some applications" (can you name one that uses PMS on Windows?) isn't Windows itself.

You REALLY should read more before posting. (why do i even bother)?

Uh, that's exactly why the ballot screen is in the talks.

[hjf288]

hjf288 says:

"I never understood the rabid fanboyism for defending a company."

So why are YOU defending Microsoft? And why are you commenting on this case even though you evidently lack even a basic understanding of the matter.

So what you are saying is that Opera should refuse to answer questions when a journalist contacts them and asks questions about the antitrust case against Microsoft?

It IS up to the EU. Does that mean that Opera can't be allowed to hold an opinion? Your logic is just bizarre. You seem to think that Opera is in any kind of position of authority. But all they are doing is to answer questions from journalists on the antitrust case, and offering their point of view.

Do we live in the Soviet Union or something? No, free speech remains free.

It doesn't.

Opera has been available for free for 3-4 years.

Except they didn't. First of all, Apple did this before Google. Secondly, even the most JS-heavy sites today won't benefit from these optimizations.

EXACTLY! Rendering time. The bottleneck on sites today is not JS, but other things like rendering, CSS, etc.

Yes, it will be great in the future, but the point was: SunSpider and the V8 benchmarks are IRRELEVANT to today's real world sites. They are just pure marketing, and testing for a tiny and specific part of JS, and if the JS engine is using those specific optimizations.

Oh sorry I didnt realise saying that Opera whine too much was a defense of Microsoft?

I must apologise for my rabid fanboyism of Microsoft even though I run 2 linux servers, a mac workstation and a seperate windows vista gaming system.

Of course I understand the situation, its just you cant get through to people such as yourself who devote nearly all their time into defending a company and wont change their ways.

In such regards your worse than the typical apple fanboy, those with the knowledge can understand the situation and feel no need to argue the point with walls.

[Eice]

Once again, are you really denying any wrongdoing on the part of Microsoft?

Are you denying that IE's inclusion in Windows gives it a huge advantage over other browsers, and that its dominance is a result of said bundling? Are you also denying that Microsoft has been willfully violating standards, even going so far as to sabotage standards?

As expected, more beating around the bush with no evidence.

I don't think I'm asking for anything very difficult. You're the one going to town about how illegal and criminal it is for Microsoft to bundle IE with Windows - has that opinion been substantiated by any body of authority with jusdiction in the EU, or were you just pulling those claims out of your arse?

Though I guess, given your repeated inability to produce any proof, that's pretty much a hypothetical question.

[petrossa]

Let's cut the crap, shall we? Show us proof where any body of authority has decided that Microsoft bundling IE with Windows is a crime, or simply be exposed as the serial liar you are.

Sigh:EU slaps MS AGAIN for IE bundling

And do your shopping here in the future, saves you egg in the face?

Edited August 16, 2009 by petrossa

[Lechio]

"Some applications" (can you name one that uses PMS on Windows?) isn't Windows itself.

A package manager also provides updates, and that's the part that is being focused. Currently package management in Windows is something that isn't very common.

But I'll give a very popular example, Steam:

Receive automatic game updates

Hunting for patches and downloading from unorganized web sites is so twentieth-century. On Steam, your games stay up-to-date by themselves. No hassles.

[Eice]

Sigh:EU slaps MS AGAIN for IE bundling

A preliminary finding where Microsoft hasn't even had the chance to be heard or respond to the charge? That's it?

The second time I've seen you trying to pass off bulls*** as facts. Again, who do you think is going to fall for that? You're either seriously underrating the intelligence of the Neowin public, or don't have too much of it yourself.

[Pupik]

A package manager also provides updates, and that's the part that is being focused. Currently package management in Windows is something that isn't very common.

But I'll give a very popular example, Steam:

Receive automatic game updates

Hunting for patches and downloading from unorganized web sites is so twentieth-century. On Steam, your games stay up-to-date by themselves. No hassles.

Uh, no. Steam doesn't use PMS. It still using registry, doesn't use a single database and can't be installed multiple times.

What you gave an example of, is just update check. And the same one that WU uses (checks updates for only installed applications (games in Steam's case)).

edit: And: already available in all the browsers.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Pupik

[Antaris Veteran]

A package manager also provides updates, and that's the part that is being focused. Currently package management in Windows is something that isn't very common.

But I'll give a very popular example, Steam:

Then why not use something like Steam or Impuse to handle your application updates. If anything, it proves that Microsoft doesn't have to be the vendor that makes the update platform...

[petrossa]

A preliminary finding where Microsoft hasn't even had the chance to respond to the charge? That's it?

The second time I've seen you trying to pass off bulls*** as facts. Again, who do you think is going to fall for that? You're either seriously underrating the intelligence of the Neowin public, or don't have too much of it.

Poor reading skills? MS was convicted of marketshare abuse in WMP case. Now it does the same thing AGAIN by continuing to bundle applications, i.e. IE.

A convicted criminal who blatantly repeats the same offense and quickly scowers when found out by fullfilling all demands put forward?

You think they don't know they've done something wrong when they cede? Why cede when you're innocent?