Opera Wants More From Microsoft

[Mathiasdm]

I said "quickly approacing 10%. But whatever.

Looking at XiTi, 'quickly approaching' was bull****.

And XiTi is useless. StatCounter is much more reliable

StatCounter is useless. XiTi is much more reliable.

See what I did there? I provided just as much proof for my statement as you did.

All of the groups providing statistics are 'useless' to some degree, as they only give an estimate.

It does not. Actually, it's irrelevant, because Opera is swimming in cash, doubled its profits last quarter, and desktop revenue alone has been up more than 100% several quarters in a row now. Opera is doing well by any measure.

That's great for them then :-)

[Growled Member]

d_ralphie, just wondering, do you work for Opera?

[SMELTN]

d_ralphie, just wondering, do you work for Opera?

Was about to post that myself.

[d_ralphie]

Please read the thread before comment on things that have already been discussed diligently.

Page 2: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/op...indows_ie_apis/

Exactly:

"access to online sites such as Windows Update and Microsoft Update for patches and fixes"

In other word, he is talking about accessing these sites to download updates, not distributing Opera through WU.

Looking at XiTi, 'quickly approaching' was bull****.

I have already explained to you that XiTi is useless. Look at their sources, and you'll notice that they are leaving out several countries and generally manipulating and messing up.

StatCounter is useless. XiTi is much more reliable.

Actually, StatCounter correctly reported Opera at 3% when Opera reported having more than 40 million users, and Internet World Stats reported about 1.4 desktop computers online. So clearly, StatCounter is a lot more reliable, and doesn't leave out countries unlike XiTi.

All of the groups providing statistics are 'useless' to some degree, as they only give an estimate.

Indeed. But XiTi and Hitslink are two of the most notoriously useless stats sites out there.

[BajiRav]

Exactly:

"access to online sites such as Windows Update and Microsoft Update for patches and fixes"

In other word, he is talking about accessing these sites to download updates, not distributing Opera through WU.

Windows/Microsoft update don't work through a browser anymore. All Windows patches flow through the WU app in Vista/7.

So how do you expect to access "these sites" through Opera when even IE can't open them? If you actually understand how WU works in Vista/7, then his sentence can meant only one thing - patches & fixes for Opera (& others).

And this is the point I made in my earlier post which you just laughed off without read the thread.

Are you asking for Microsoft to bundle SCCM? or were you just shouting from post to post without actually understanding the point of this thread?

[Mathiasdm]

I have already explained to you that XiTi is useless. Look at their sources, and you'll notice that they are leaving out several countries and generally manipulating and messing up.

I was merely explaining why I thought Opera was not approaching 10% at all.

Actually, StatCounter correctly reported Opera at 3% when Opera reported having more than 40 million users, and Internet World Stats reported about 1.4 desktop computers online. So clearly, StatCounter is a lot more reliable, and doesn't leave out countries unlike XiTi.

Indeed. But XiTi and Hitslink are two of the most notoriously useless stats sites out there.

Thanks for that information. I had a look, and I think I'll have to agree on XiTi:

Methodology:

The 23 countries included in the study were:

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Luxemburg, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom.

For each country, we analyzed traffic website mainly generated in the countries studied. We calculated an average traffic distribution by websites. The visits? share for each browser is the total number of visits of the analyzed browser compared to the overall number of visits for all browsers combined over a given period.

The Europe indicator is representative of the countries auditedThe average visits? share in Europe is the average of the indicators for the 23 countries studied. Country influence is homogeneous.

It seems each country counts equally, which is obviously incorrect.

Thanks for using decent arguments, d_ralphie :-)

[d_ralphie]

Windows/Microsoft update don't work through a browser anymore.

Gee, guess what, http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ still exists! And guess what, it blocks any browser that isn't IE!

So how do you expect to access "these sites" through Opera when even IE can't open them? If you actually understand how WU works in Vista/7, then his sentence can meant only one thing - patches & fixes for Opera (& others).

You conveniently ignored these parts again:

"access to online sites such as"

"or Windows Live OneCare, Microsoft's re-launched security service"

It clearly states that he is talking about "online sites", not being included in services.

And here's even more:

"I’m looking at the basics here, like being able to access the Microsoft network or the developer network, to access and get upgrades to the operating system," von Tetzchner told The Reg. "If they have sites and content out there you need to access to use the operating system in a meaningful way, and it's web based and that doesn’t work - that’s a problem."

Microsoft Network. Developer Network. Sites and content.

Your quote mining is worse than that of a harcore Creationist!

[BajiRav]

Gee, guess what, http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ still exists! And guess what, it blocks any browser that isn't IE!

What part of "in Vista/7" you did not understand? of course the site still exists (for XP and below) and of course it blocks Opera/Firefox etc. because they can't run ActiveX control needed for it to run. Why are you not calling on Mozilla because last time I checked I can't install Firefox plugins/extensions on IE/Safari/Chrome.

You conveniently ignored these parts again:

"access to online sites such as"

"or Windows Live OneCare, Microsoft's re-launched security service"

It clearly states that he is talking about "online sites", not being included in services.

And here's even more:

"I’m looking at the basics here, like being able to access the Microsoft network or the developer network, to access and get upgrades to the operating system," von Tetzchner told The Reg. "If they have sites and content out there you need to access to use the operating system in a meaningful way, and it's web based and that doesn’t work - that’s a problem."

Microsoft Network. Developer Network. Sites and content.

Your quote mining is worse than that of a harcore Creationist!

Umm AFAIK, MSDN, technet, Connect work without any problems in Firefox/Safari (I don't use/install Opera so don't know). Any "upgrades to the operating system" come via WU!

I am quote mining? sure, whatever.

And may I ask what exactly do you suggest as a solution? That MS develop browser plugin for a (almost)8 year old OS so that it can run in a browser that 97% of the browser users don't care about? Hell, they are trying to get rid of XP as fast as they can.

Windows Live OneCare has nothing to do with Windows (i.e. it is not bundled). So Opera can STFU on that front.

[Eric Veteran]

Exactly:

"access to online sites such as Windows Update and Microsoft Update for patches and fixes"

In other word, he is talking about accessing these sites to download updates, not distributing Opera through WU.

If you had continued to read the thread, we've also discussed the fact that that's not how WU works or what it's for. We've the built-in updates in Opera (which should already be more than sufficient) as well as the fact that there are already other 'updater' solutions they could be using instead of generating frivolous complains ad nauseum. What has Opera done to better itself?

As for the rest, this topic is not about browser market share...

[SMELTN]

What has Opera done to better itself

It has complained alot to the EU so it can get attention and it has people posting on tech sites in its defense :laugh:

[d_ralphie]

@SMELTN: Opera filed one complaint. Is one "alot" (sic)?

Also, you didn't reply to anything I said about how one of the bases Capitalism is that it needs laws to protect the free market. Anarchy does not work.

You also ignored the fact that Mozilla, Google and others joined the complaint. They are even "whining", as you people would call it. But I guess it's OK for everyone except Opera to answer questions from journalists?

And what about the fact that Microsoft fully embraces European competition law, and has even filed antitrust complaints against other companies itself? And Google has filed antitrust complaints as well. So I guess they are evil too! Or is it just bad when Opera does it?

Finally, how is reporting a crime a "loophole"?

And may I ask what exactly do you suggest as a solution? That MS develop browser plugin for a (almost)8 year old OS so that it can run in a browser that 97% of the browser users don't care about? Hell, they are trying to get rid of XP as fast as they can.

You seemt to be writing a lot of irrelevant stuff. Are you finally admitting that your "Opera wants to be updated through WU" nonsense is nonsense? Do you now see the context of what Opera said in that article? They were specifically referring to sites, and he mentioned some examples.

If you had continued to read the thread, we've also discussed the fact that that's not how WU works or what it's for. We've the built-in updates in Opera (which should already be more than sufficient) as well as the fact that there are already other 'updater' solutions they could be using instead of generating frivolous complains ad nauseum.

If you had read what Opera actually said, they never said anything about being updated through Windows Update. They specifically mentioned examples of SITES Microsoft should let other browsers access. The only frivolous complaints here are from people like you who read someone's lies about Opera and just pass them on without even thinking about it for a second.

What has Opera done to better itself?

Huh? I don't understand the question. Opera is releasing new versions all the time. Opera 10 is 40-60% or so faster than Opera 9, for one. Right now they are working on a new JS engine which will apparently completely destroy Chrome and Safari. And they have delivered on such promises in the past. When Opera 9.5 was released it was so much faster than everything else that Apple realized that they had to start doing JIT and all that stuff to catch up. Opera basically set the whole performance race in motion.

What HASN'T Opera done to "better itself"?

[shakey]

To your first point:

Try that with a cop when you get a speeding ticket. If you do business you have to know the laws that apply to the market you enter.

your second point:

Yes it does make a difference because that's what the law says. If you have a 30% plus marketshare you are automatically by law a market dominator and all anti-competition laws apply to you.

As soon as Apple reaches 30%plus Microsoft can lodge a complaint with the EU against Apple for anti-competitive behavior.

your 3rd point:

The EU ruled that MS is in contravention of the anti-competition laws by bundling IE. It told MS to find a solution. MS came up with 7E as solution. The EU said that's not a solution we accept, come with another. MS proposes the ballotbox, the EU looks favorable on it and therefore asks the parties concerned to review the solution and give their opinion.

And about EU and communism: EU is rightwing

Wow, you could not have missed the point of what I said any further.... your first statement had even a totally wrong analogy and made no since to mine......

[Zonk]

You know, it's funny how Mozilla manages to continually increase the user base of Firefox without whining like little b!+(#35 to the EU Commission. Maybe that's what happens when you design software that people actually want to use.

[shakey]

It is so pathetic to hear, its the law you must and have to follow it. What if there was a law stating all people who said stupid crap like that were to put hung at noon tomorrow? Would you then follow it? By your sayings, yes you would.

Law is not right. Law is someones opinion of right or wrong. When a law is found to be useless, abusive, or causes more harm than it does good, it is a good thing to fight that law, and change it. Just because something is law does not make it set in stone, does not make it right, does not make it anything but someones damn opinion of what they think is right or wrong.

Ignorant blind people of this world, wake the hell up from such stupidity.

and no, this is not just about this case, its about any stupid law that is out there , and the way people seem to advocate that you must follow such things. Laws constantly change over time. The more you do not to try and change them though, the more you are limiting and hurting yourself.

[BreakingBenjamin]

You know, it's funny how Mozilla manages to continually increase the user base of Firefox without whining like little b!+(#35 to the EU Commission. Maybe that's what happens when you design software that people actually want to use.

+1

[Pupik]

You also ignored the fact that Mozilla, Google and others joined the complaint. They are even "whining", as you people would call it.

No, they're (Mozilla and Google) not whining. Yes Mozilla and Google agreed with Opera's case back in May, but then they moved on improving their product. Opera on the other hand, just kept whining (yes, "whining": to complain in an unreasonable, repeated, or irritating way) to the press about every move Microsoft tried to make towards the EU.

First they (Opera) complained that Internet Explorer bundled with Windows, then they (still Opera) complained that Microsoft unbundled IE from Windows [E] and then when Microsoft did what the EU thought would be perfect and suggested the ballot screen, they (yeah, that's right. Opera.) complained that IE's icon it too recognizable and now this (yet again, Opera).

So no matter how you'll look at it, Opera is whining, and will keep doing so until Microsoft will practicably bundle only their (Opera's) browser with Windows.

[Growled Member]

What has Opera done to better itself?

Is nothing the correct answer? Because I can't see anything that they've done that would improve their standings with the general public. And the things they do sponsor, like Unite, are things most people really don't want. Opera is still out of touch, seems to me.

[d_ralphie]

You know, it's funny how Mozilla manages to continually increase the user base of Firefox without whining like little b!+(#35 to the EU Commission.

Actually, Mozilla is "whining like little b!+(#35". But I guess it's only bad if Opera does it!

By the way, Opera's desktop user base doubled in less than 2 years, and it now has 40 or 50 million users worldwide, and is way ahead of both Chrome and Safari in Europe.

No, they're (Mozilla and Google) not whining.

Actually, they are "whining". Check out the links above. Here's another one, straight from the Mozilla boss:

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/06/12/...s-7-without-ie/

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/06/11/...ples-synthesis/

These are just 3 out of a long series of "whines" from the Mozilla boss herself.

But I guess it's only bad when Opera does it! :D

Yes Mozilla and Google agreed with Opera's case back in May, but then they moved on improving their product.

Actually, since the complaint they will soon have launched two major versions with huge improvements all over, and of course smaller releases as well.

Opera on the other hand, just kept whining (yes, "whining": to complain in an unreasonable, repeated, or irritating way) to the press about every move Microsoft tried to make towards the EU.

So answering questions from the press is "whining". I get it. Excellent logic :D

So no matter how you'll look at it, Opera is whining

Please give me a specific example of Opera whining. I want a specific quote.

[Subject Delta]

"access to online sites such as"

"or Windows Live OneCare, Microsoft's re-launched security service"

What are you getting at exactly? OneCare is being replaced by MSE (and FYI the page actually works in Opera). The reason that WU is not supported in any other browsers is because Microsoft haven't developed any plugins for those browsers. It would obviously be pretty pointless to forward them to the update check when it isn't going to work.

No, they're (Mozilla and Google) not whining. Yes Mozilla and Google agreed with Opera's case back in May, but then they moved on improving their product. Opera on the other hand, just kept whining (yes, "whining": to complain in an unreasonable, repeated, or irritating way) to the press about every move Microsoft tried to make towards the EU.

Nope, because Opera never make improvements like weekly builds, new versions ETC, of course not. Please stop being silly.

[d_ralphie]

@Frank Fontaine: I'm getting at the fact that Opera wasn't referring to being distributed through Windows Update. They specifically mentioned websites as examples of sites that should be available to other browsers than IE. If DevNet isn't available to other browsers, that is a bad thing. Understand?

If it is available to other browsers, great. He was just giving examples of important sites.

Is nothing the correct answer? Because I can't see anything that they've done that would improve their standings with the general public. And the things they do sponsor, like Unite, are things most people really don't want. Opera is still out of touch, seems to me.

How do you know what "most people don't want" exactly? Oh, I get it! Everyone's an expert online! :D

Opera will soon have released two major versions as well as smaller updates in addition to that within about a year. That is "nothing" in your world? Wow, the hyperbole is rising to new levels among desperate Microsoft fans who will even contradict themselves to defend their beloved company :)

It is so pathetic to hear, its the law you must and have to follow it.

So you are saying that anyone should be free to ignore the law? Or does that only apply to Microsoft?

When a law is found to be useless, abusive, or causes more harm than it does good, it is a good thing to fight that law, and change it.

Even Microsoft fully embraces antitrust laws. They have filed their own antitrust complaints against other companies, remember! Also, their press releases clearly state that they intend to fully comply with EU competition law.

Funny how even Microsoft fully supports laws that its most staunch defenders are 100% against just because the law happens to bite Microsoft in the ass :D

[Pupik]

Actually, they are "whining". Check out the links above. Here's another one, straight from the Mozilla boss:

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/06/12/...s-7-without-ie/

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/06/11/...ples-synthesis/

These are just 3 out of a long series of "whines" from the Mozilla boss herself.

But I guess it's only bad when Opera does it! :D

Please give me a specific example of Opera whining. I want a specific quote.

Could you please point out where exactly he ("Mozilla's boss") whined (and please, read the definition of the word again. with all your quote usage on it, I'm not sure you understand it: "whine: to complain in an unreasonable, repeated, or irritating way") in any of the blog posts you posted? All I saw in those three were valid points and questions, that added to the discussion on hand.

None of the **** that Opera continued to spew each and every time, when Microsoft went towards the EU. Ridiculous things like on ballot screen:

"We're not sure about the use of logos," Lie said. "The blue 'e' has become so associated with the Internet in general, due to the bundling with Windows. We think using the blue "e" might not be such a good idea."

Compared to what "Mozilla's boss" said and asked on the same subject: http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/

And what was Opera's suggestion on solving that problem that so disturbed them exactly (icon in the ballot screen)? Removing the browser's icons, so they could later whine about "Internet Explorer" containing "Internet" in it?

Give me a break! Opera is whining, and does that just for the publicity.

[Eice]

Both of you need to read what I wrote instead of assuming things.

My point is that Microsoft has always had a conscious strategy to compat interoperability on the web. I mentioned 2 quite recent examples of Microsoft consciously undermining open standards, e.g. ECMAScript 4 because it was a threat to Silverlight (see the Mozilla guy's comments in the links I gave you).

You need to read what I wrote instead of repeatedly spewing the same bulls*** in the vain hope that, if you repeat your lies enough times, people will believe in them. Either you think we're idiots, or you're one yourself. Stop trying to justify up your baseless, unproven and cheap opinion that Microsoft is guilty of bundling IE with Windows, with yet more equally baseless, unproven and cheap opinions that Microsoft is "guilty" of the "crime" of "violating" Internet standards.

You're doing nothing but playing the same trick of playing prosecutor, judge and jury by trying to deliver a verdict on Microsoft. Whether Microsoft is guilty or not of a crime is up to the courts, not to the Opera shills.

Are you denying any wrongdoing on the part of Microsoft?

Are you denying that IE's inclusion in Windows gives it a huge advantage over other browsers, and that its dominance is a result of said bundling? Are you also denying that Microsoft has been willfully violating standards, even going so far as to sabotage standards?

I'm not surprised you didn't get it the first time. For the rest of us, the concept of "innocence until proven guilty" is simple common sense. But I guess it's an entirely alien notion altogether for the Opera shills desperate to demonize Microsoft to excuse Opera's shameless whining.

Uh, no, I have no such authority. And why are you ignoring what I wrote once again? Here it is, since you clearly didn't get it the first 2 times:

I clearly explained to you that when I refer to Microsoft as "guilty" it is because that is what I see as the only likely outcome.

This is MY OPINION based on the facts of the case. To clarify YOU opinion I asked you a few questions above, which I hope you will FINALLY answer.

So why should anyone treat your cheap opinion as more of the joke it is, when there are far more reliable avenues - i.e., a legal verdict from a legal body of authority - to get the real facts from? Is there any reason why we should be believing the cheap opinion of an Opera shill over the judgment of established courts?

You don't need a verdict to form your own opinion.

Of course not. You just need to be a man-child who gets all angry and confused and throws tantrums whenever the word "Microsoft" is mentioned.

This is a forum. In a forum, you debate things. You can form all sorts of opinions on all sorts of things. Other people can then disagree and attempt to refute the arguments you are using to support your opinion.

Yes, this is an Internet forum, where Opera shills are free to pull lies and worthless opinions out of their arses without any regard to the reality that it is the court who decides on Microsoft's guilt, not them.

Opera reported a crime to the EU, and the EU investigated.

Opera is whining. Plain and simple. Any grade school kid could've told you that. If Opera had followed Mozilla, Google and Apple's example and kept their hole shut after reporting to the EU, then yes, they'd have reported a crime. If they ask for all sorts of retarded compensations from Microsoft, who's not even found guilty yet, then they are whining.

A man gets laid off and sues his boss for firing him unfairly. Before the trial has even concluded, the man says that his ex-boss should buy him a new car and house, pay for his son's university education, and guarantee his social benefits until his death for unfairly firing him. That is whining, and that is exactly what Opera is throwing away all sense of shame and decency and setting out to do.

[iamwhoiam]

It does not. Actually, it's irrelevant, because Opera is swimming in cash, doubled its profits last quarter, and desktop revenue alone has been up more than 100% several quarters in a row now. Opera is doing well by any measure.

Since they swimming in so much of a cash pool then they should advertise their browser and pay to have it put on OEM machines. BUT, they have already stated that they cannot afford to do that. If Opera cannot afford to promote their browser then they either need to do better business in order to do that or go out of business.

And the fact that it's still ahead of the world's most powerful online advertiser is quite amazing. It says a lot about how Microsoft has messed up the market when Google can't even put a dent in IE's dominance despite pushing it heavily all over the web.

Three words for you....Firefox did it.

I find it pathetic that a browser that has been around for what, 13 years, and still can't manage to get any significant market share. If an open source browser can take the market share from IE then there's no reason that another browser can't do it as well.

[shakey]

@Frank Fontaine: I'm getting at the fact that Opera wasn't referring to being distributed through Windows Update. They specifically mentioned websites as examples of sites that should be available to other browsers than IE. If DevNet isn't available to other browsers, that is a bad thing. Understand?

If it is available to other browsers, great. He was just giving examples of important sites.

How do you know what "most people don't want" exactly? Oh, I get it! Everyone's an expert online! :D

Opera will soon have released two major versions as well as smaller updates in addition to that within about a year. That is "nothing" in your world? Wow, the hyperbole is rising to new levels among desperate Microsoft fans who will even contradict themselves to defend their beloved company :)

So you are saying that anyone should be free to ignore the law? Or does that only apply to Microsoft?

Even Microsoft fully embraces antitrust laws. They have filed their own antitrust complaints against other companies, remember! Also, their press releases clearly state that they intend to fully comply with EU competition law.

Funny how even Microsoft fully supports laws that its most staunch defenders are 100% against just because the law happens to bite Microsoft in the ass :D

*wwwwwwwwhhhhhhhooooossshhhhhh* thats the sound of my rebuttal going over your head once agian. I give up on this sort of talking lol.

[petrossa]

*wwwwwwwwhhhhhhhooooossshhhhhh* thats the sound of my rebuttal going over your head once agian. I give up on this sort of talking lol.

Better, because you make no sense what so ever. Your argument is that EU laws stink and that MS is right to pick and choose which laws they want to adhere to.

Here on Earth however, this doesn't work. Intel is not happy neither and are wriggling in all directions to get out under their hefty fine. They even stated 'human rights' to not pay.

At least MS had the decency to just take their slap on the hand and behave like an adult.

?