Opera Wants More From Microsoft

[shakey]

Better, because you make no sense what so ever. Your argument is that EU laws stink and that MS is right to pick and choose which laws they want to adhere to.

Here on Earth however, this doesn't work. Intel is not happy neither and are wriggling in all directions to get out under their hefty fine. They even stated 'human rights' to not pay.

At least MS had the decency to just take their slap on the hand and behave like an adult.

?

LOL, some of you people here make me laugh. I see a little bit of what I said was able to get in your eye, but most of it still over the top. I won't help explain it, as many others already have. If your too stupid to understand english and how this is unfair to MS or for any company to have happen to, its not my job to educate you. But when you start your own business, you need to start selling my stuff with your stuff as well, and I should not have to do a thing for you in return, because I can not sell it myself.....

[petrossa]

LOL, some of you people here make me laugh. I see a little bit of what I said was able to get in your eye, but most of it still over the top. I won't help explain it, as many others already have. If your too stupid to understand english and how this is unfair to MS or for any company to have happen to, its not my job to educate you. But when you start your own business, you need to start selling my stuff with your stuff as well, and I should not have to do a thing for you in return, because I can not sell it myself.....

:laugh: ?Ad hominem arguments don't exactly add to your powers of persuasion.

But then again @ Microsoft: Life's a bitch and then you die.

[shakey]

:laugh: ?Ad hominem arguments don't exactly add to your powers of persuasion.

But then again @ Microsoft: Life's a bitch and then you die.

You're the one who said I make no sense. Not my fault you can't understand such simple concepts. Maybe better choose your words so that one can not make such a rebuttal. If you want to pick and choose little parts of what I say, and completely ignore or totally miss the whole idea, you will be called out for making such mistakes.

[Antaris Veteran]

:laugh: ?Ad hominem arguments don't exactly add to your powers of persuasion.

But then again @ Microsoft: Life's a bitch and then you die.

But then again @ Opera: Life's a bitch and then you die.

[petrossa]

But then again @ Opera: Life's a bitch and then you die.

:huh: ?finally they get an evenhanded opportunity to prove or disprove their browser can make it. Given it's brandname being firmly entrenched in mobile browsing they have an excellent chance of getting ahead.

If not, they really are a big FAIL and then you can post a nice 'Opera Sucks, told you so nananana' thread.

[DDStriker]

?

The Commission welcomes this proposal, and will now investigate its practical effectiveness in terms of ensuring genuine consumer choice.

Regulators have been investigating Microsoft since 2007, following two complaints - one by the makers of the Norwegian web browser Opera, and another from the industry group European Committee for Interoperable Systems (ECIS), accusing Microsoft of unfairly obstructing the ability of rival applications to work on its operating systems.

The pack follows the leader

US browser maker Mozilla reacted to Microsoft's ballot screen proposal in somewhat the same way as Opera. "We're interested in seeing the specifics of the proposal that Microsoft is making and until that point it's hard to have a definitive reaction," said Mozilla CEO John Lilly in an email on Saturday. "It is, of course, a good development that Microsoft will make changes to allow users to choose their own default Web browser."

Lilly listed several questions, including some that remained unanswered in Microsoft's detailed proposal. "Who determines which browsers participate in the ballot," Lilly asked. According to Microsoft's proposal, either the top 5 or top 10 browsers, including IE -- it's unclear which number -- in the EU by usage share will be featured in the ballot screen, with the share determined by "a source commonly agreed between Microsoft and the European Commission."

Like Lie, Lilly had his wish list. "In addition to the ballot screen, we hope to see Microsoft adopt practices in the operating system so that once a user makes their browser choice, Windows doesn't subvert it in any way," he said. Earlier this year, the European Commission granted Mozilla's request to participate in the antitrust case as an "interested third party." It granted a similar request to Google, the maker of Chrome.

While the Commissionsolicits public comment> and considers this proposal, we are committed to ensuring that we are in full compliance with European law and our obligations under the 2007 Court of First Instance ruling.

Are we done now?

What? that would have to be the most pointless post ever, how does that differ to my text that you quoted?

Are we done now? grow up

[petrossa]

What? that would have to be the most pointless post ever, how does that differ to my text that you quoted?

Are we done now? grow up

You're post singled out Opera.

My post proves that Mozilla just as publicly stated it's reservations and a 'wish list' as well.

Also you missed the part where the EU 'solicits public comment ' so them responding to this invitation can not be called 'whining' , 'demanding more' or whatever. This whole thread and all posts as to Opera being a whining loser are null and void.

[hjf288]

Mobile operators are starting to move away from Opera and Netfront by developing their own webkit based solutions such as samsung and nokia so I wouldnt expect massive growth by their mobile

[CuCumber]

I find it pathetic that a browser that has been around for what, 13 years, and still can't manage to get any significant market share.

Eleven years and still struggling. What was it, pathetic or what?

[White Cuban]

LOL! i was thinking opera winfrey

[Antaris Veteran]

Eleven years and still struggling. What was it, pathetic or what?

Yeah, but Microsoft aren't pushing any sort of Anti-trust complaint about Google's search engine. Flawed example.

[Eice]

You're post singled out Opera.

My post proves that Mozilla just as publicly stated it's reservations and a 'wish list' as well.

Wrong. Nobody other than Opera has posed ridiculous request after ridiculous request. First it was Microsoft isn't allowed to bundle IE, then Microsoft isn't allowed to NOT bundle IE, then Microsoft should serve the browser ballot screen worldwide, then Microsoft shouldn't use IE's icon on the ballot screen, and now they want Microsoft to serve Opera updates too. Your post only proves that Mozilla is is a total loser compared to Opera when it comes to the title of whining crybaby king.

Also you missed the part where the EU 'solicits public comment ' so them responding to this invitation can not be called 'whining' , 'demanding more' or whatever. This whole thread and all posts as to Opera being a whining loser are null and void.

Opera is providing feedback about the proposal at all? News to me. All I see them doing is keeping on chanting "I want, I want."

I don't see how they're null and void when Opera keeps on continuing to advertise itself as a whining loser by constantly making known its increasingly repugnant and ridiculous wants. Opera apparently has no problem with disgracing itself in public, so it's surprising that the Opera shills are outraged when people rightly express their disgust with Opera's shamelessly pathetic attitude.

Eleven years and still struggling. What was it, pathetic or what?

When Microsoft cries for Google to include a "Do you want to search with Bing instead?" button on its homepage, come back and we'll talk.

Microsoft is trying to gain market share via its own efforts and in legitimate ways, which is more than can be said for Opera.

[SMELTN]

Mobile operators are starting to move away from Opera and Netfront by developing their own webkit based solutions such as samsung and nokia so I wouldnt expect massive growth by their mobile

I think this is one of the underlining issues here, and why Opera is scrambling to get a spot in the limelight. They know this is happening and its only a matter of time before they are dead in the mobile market.

Now let me clear on something. My opinion on the perfect scenario is, Windows Update works for everything. You open up Windows update, check for updates and bam, every program and game is shown if it has an update and you can install from there. But this is way over the top and would cost M$ tons to do, But, if M$ was to try and do this and charge the company x amount of dollars to help cover the fee of having their program listed, companies would sue saying M$ is doing something illegal, OR some companies wouldn't want to pay at all, and complain saying it isn't fair some programs are listed and others aren't. Its a no win.

[Subject Delta]

@Frank Fontaine: I'm getting at the fact that Opera wasn't referring to being distributed through Windows Update. They specifically mentioned websites as examples of sites that should be available to other browsers than IE. If DevNet isn't available to other browsers, that is a bad thing. Understand?

If it is available to other browsers, great. He was just giving examples of important sites.

If you are referring to Technet and MSDN, they are available to other browsers. The only thing you can't do is download (well in Opera anyway, I think they actually developed an FTM plugin for firefox), but you can still browse the sites

Funny how even Microsoft fully supports laws that its most staunch defenders are 100% against just because the law happens to bite Microsoft in the ass :D

Microsoft supports laws that makes it offer other company's products? that's a rather novel and amusing interpretation. Complying with the law doesn't mean they agree with it, they just changed the behaviour pre-emptively to avoid another large EU fine.

[d_ralphie]

Stop trying to justify up your baseless, unproven and cheap opinion that Microsoft is guilty of bundling IE with Windows, with yet more equally baseless, unproven and cheap opinions that Microsoft is "guilty" of the "crime" of "violating" Internet standards.

Getting desperate, are we? I didn't say "guilty of the crime of violating internet standards", I said that violating and undermining open standards was a conscious strategy by Microsoft in order to cause lock-in. I did explain this to you in my other reply, but you simply ignored it and kept ranting. You have got to be really desperate to repeat straw men even after I have explained what I was actually saying.

You're doing nothing but playing the same trick of playing prosecutor, judge and jury by trying to deliver a verdict on Microsoft. Whether Microsoft is guilty or not of a crime is up to the courts, not to the Opera shills.

My questions aren't about whether Microsoft is guilty of a crime or not. My questions are to you directly. About your opinion. Whether you are actually denying any wrongdoing by Microsoft. Whether you are actually denying that IE's inclusion in Windows gives it a huge advantage over other browsers, and that its dominance is a result of said bundling. Whether you are denying that Microsoft has been willfully violating standards, even going so far as to sabotage standards.

Of course not. You just need to be a man-child who gets all angry and confused and throws tantrums whenever the word "Microsoft" is mentioned.

Who's the one throwing tantrums again? :D You can't even answer some simple questions about your stance on Microsofts' behavior. Instead you start all-out attacks, desperately trying to change the subject.

Opera is whining. Plain and simple.

Oh yeah? Give me one specific example of Opera "whining" and explain how it is "whining" exactly.

If Opera had followed Mozilla, Google and Apple's example and kept their hole shut after reporting to the EU, then yes, they'd have reported a crime.

What on earth are you talking about? Apple isn't even involved in the case, and neither Google nor Mozilla have kept quiet.

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/07/24/...dows-in-europe/

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/06/12/...s-7-without-ie/

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2009/06/11/...ples-synthesis/

http://www.macworld.co.uk/digitallifestyle...mp;NewsID=26716

http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/200...competitive.htm

A man gets laid off and sues his boss for firing him unfairly. Before the trial has even concluded, the man says that his ex-boss should buy him a new car and house, pay for his son's university education, and guarantee his social benefits until his death for unfairly firing him. That is whining, and that is exactly what Opera is throwing away all sense of shame and decency and setting out to do.

Nope, this is not what Opera is doing. Opera is simply answering questions from journalists about their opinion. But I guess answering questions from journalists is considered "whining" if the one answering is Opera.

First it was Microsoft isn't allowed to bundle IE, then Microsoft isn't allowed to NOT bundle IE

MIcrosoft fans apparently love to rewrite history. It was MICROSOFT who said they would remove IE, and then changed their minds. Opera has no authority what so ever. You know this by now, but keep repeating falsehoods. Why?

[Pupik]

Oh yeah? Give me one specific example of Opera "whining" and explain how it is "whining" exactly.

Did you ignore my reply because I actually answered your question, or just because you wanted to keep spamming the same again?

https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?show...amp;p=591452412

[d_ralphie]

@Pupik: I don't see a single example of "whining". All I see is someone talking about possible problems with the ballot screen, exactly the same as what Mozilla is doing. The hypocrisy here is actually amazing. Apparently it's fine that Mozilla points out problems, but if Opera does it, it's "whining"

Mobile operators are starting to move away from Opera and Netfront by developing their own webkit based solutions such as samsung and nokia

Oh yeah? Which mobile operators might that be? Also, if you are right, why is Opera constantly getting new deals with both OEMs and operators, and constantly setting new revenue records? LOL.

I think this is one of the underlining issues here, and why Opera is scrambling to get a spot in the limelight. They know this is happening and its only a matter of time before they are dead in the mobile market.

Dead in the mobile market? LOL. Do you really think that all OEMs and operators in the world are going to become browser vendors? Nope. There will always be countless companies with countless devices that need a browser.

[d_ralphie]

Yeah, but Microsoft aren't pushing any sort of Anti-trust complaint about Google's search engine. Flawed example.

Actually, Microsoft has filed antitrust complaints against Google, e.g. when Google bought DoubleClick. But I guess "whining" is fine as long as it's Microsoft doing the "whining", eh? The double standards of some people are amazing...

If you are referring to Technet and MSDN, they are available to other browsers. The only thing you can't do is download (well in Opera anyway, I think they actually developed an FTM plugin for firefox), but you can still browse the sites

The point isn't if those specific examples are available to other browsers. The point is that they should be. They were just examples. And it shows that he was talking about sites, not making Opera part of Windows Update.

Microsoft supports laws that makes it offer other company's products? that's a rather novel and amusing interpretation. Complying with the law doesn't mean they agree with it, they just changed the behaviour pre-emptively to avoid another large EU fine.

Yes, Microsoft fully supports EU antitrust laws. They have said that, and have even filed their own antitrust complaints.

[d_ralphie]

A man gets laid off and sues his boss for firing him unfairly. Before the trial has even concluded, the man says that his ex-boss should buy him a new car and house, pay for his son's university education, and guarantee his social benefits until his death for unfairly firing him. That is whining, and that is exactly what Opera is throwing away all sense of shame and decency and setting out to do.

By the way, this example is a terrible example. A better example:

Several people are being harassed by their boss.

One of the victims reports the harassment to the authorities.

The authorities agree that this looks like a clear-cut harassment case.

The victim is called as a witness. Other victims of harassment join the harassment as witnesses as well.

The government releases statements about what the most likely punishment for the harassment will be.

The boss ignores what the government just said, and tries to get away from the government's harassment suit by saying "I won't harass anyone anymore, honest", and he says that he's going to write each victim a letter saying "sorry for the harassment", and that's it.

The government does not think this is sufficient.

Journalists contact the victim who reported the harassment and ask what he thinks, and he says that he doesn't think it's sufficient either. He points out that several victims of the harassment have mental problems as a result, and several families have been destroyed, so something should be done not only to end the harassment and ensure that it never happens again,. (Cue "the victim is whining" whining.)

The violator (boss) now returns with a second suggestion: He will sign an agreement never to harass again. He will sit down with his brother, who is a hobby psychologist, to get help with his own psychopathy. He will pay each victim $100 each.

The government responds: This is promising, but they need to look at the details.

The victim who reported the harassment is contacted by journalists who ask for his view.

The victim responds that this suggestion shows promise, but there are a lot of unanswered questions about how it would actually be implemented. Furthermore, is it really appropriate that the boss's own brother is supposedly going to help the violator to control his psychopathy? Shouldn't that be an independent, licensed psychologist? Also, several of the victims have huge medical bills because they have had to receive treatment after the psychological scars resulting from the harassment. Should they have to pay the bill themselves? The violator is a very rich man, shouldn't he be held accountable for the psychological damage he has inflicted on others? Lastly, how do you prevent this from happening in the future, in this company, or in other companies? Maybe the government should set up some ground rules for harassment, and create a system to follow up on how businesses treat their employees, in order to avoid harassment in the work place? (Cue "the victim is whining even more" whining.)

And that's where we are today. People like you are claiming that Opera is "whining" because it is responding to questions from journalists about the case they got started by reporting Microsoft's crimes to the authorities. But when someone points out flaws and problems with proposals from a violator, they are not "whining". They are raising questions. As a direct response to questions from journalists.

A final point:

Why is Opera talking this much about the antitrust case?

Because they were the ones who reported Microsoft's violations to the authorities, so they are the first ones journalists contact for comments on new developments in the antitrust case.

If people who whine over Opera "whining" use their brains for a second, they will realize that all these comments from Opera are a direct result of journalists contacting them for comments. So what are you people suggesting? That Opera should refuse to talk about the case?

Apparently answering questions from journalists is "whining". Gotta love Microsoft-logic.

[DariusIII]

Why should an update to a specific application cause Windows not to boot? It's an application, not a system component (pushing it a bit there, aren't you?).

Actually he has a point.For example, recently EvE Online had a patch that in some circumstances removed the boot.ini from windows xp and rendered the OS non-bootable.What do you think would happen with tons of updates through WU service if only one application would do similar thing? Who would be blamed? Opera maybe? Mozilla? I don't think so.

[Fluxii Media]

...

why is this still open?

why is opera still talking?

why can't there be peace in the middle east?

Too many whys... forget it... Google needs to own the world already. /yawn

[DariusIII]

d_ralphie, just wondering, do you work for Opera?

Offtopic:

I just googled to find something about d_ralphie and guess what, d_ralphie is supporting opera on different forums at least since 2004, so i believe he does have some connection to Opera software, check this link

Anyway, Opera is pushing it too far with this.

[Eice]

Getting desperate, are we? I didn't say "guilty of the crime of violating internet standards", I said that violating and undermining open standards was a conscious strategy by Microsoft in order to cause lock-in. I did explain this to you in my other reply, but you simply ignored it and kept ranting. You have got to be really desperate to repeat straw men even after I have explained what I was actually saying.

Because your reply is more of the same crap. Microsoft is guilty of this, Microsoft is guilty of that, nevermind that those claims are only cheap opinions pulled out of an Opera shill's hole instead of any actual legal verdicts. Which court has decided that bundling IE makes Microsoft guilty of "lock-in"? Oh, that's right - none.

You have got to be really desperate to repeat the same blatant lies in the vain hope that people will believe them if they're parroted often enough, because those lies are all you have.

My questions aren't about whether Microsoft is guilty of a crime or not. My questions are to you directly. About your opinion.

Why would I want to subscribe to the same bull that you do?

Are you so caught up in your own lies that you think everyone else wants to do the same? For the question of whether Microsoft is guilty, there are legal verdicts by authorized courts. It's only you who so desperately wants Microsoft to be guilty that, in the absence of an actual court judgment, you're relying on your own cheap opinions - backed up by zero legal knowledge and/or authority - to argue as such.

Your opinions are a joke. Get over it. Quit playing make-believe that your opinion somehow determines Microsoft is guilty or not. We have the courts for that, and it's time for you to wake up from your delusions.

Nope, this is not what Opera is doing. Opera is simply answering questions from journalists about their opinion. But I guess answering questions from journalists is considered "whining" if the one answering is Opera.

Whining and answering questions from journalists are by no means mutually exclusive. Just because you're doing one doesn't mean you aren't doing the other. Opera is doing both, because being whining losers in public is apparently exactly what they intend to do.

MIcrosoft fans apparently love to rewrite history. It was MICROSOFT who said they would remove IE, and then changed their minds. Opera has no authority what so ever. You know this by now, but keep repeating falsehoods. Why?

There are no falsehoods. Just because Opera has no authority, doesn't mean they aren't whining and airing their increasingly ridiculous opinions in public. It was Opera who said that Microsoft cannot bundle IE, AND that Microsoft cannot NOT bundle IE. The only falsehood here is you trying to whitewash Opera's actions, even though Opera itself has no qualms about disgracing itself in public.

Obviously Opera wants to be ridiculed. It's somewhat surprising that an Opera shill like you isn't supporting them and helping them achieve their desired goal.

[Eice]

I just googled to find something about d_ralphie and guess what, d_ralphie is supporting opera on different forums at least since 2004, so i believe he does have some connection to Opera software, check this link

Now that's what I call dedication. Does anyone know how much Opera pays, by any chance.

[CuCumber]

I just googled to find something about d_ralphie and guess what, d_ralphie is supporting opera on different forums at least since 2004, so i believe he does have some connection to Opera software

Oh How wonderful of you to do that!

I can play too! Look: It's our dear friend Eice defending Microsoft on different forums around the Internet.

Now that's what I call dedication. Does anyone know how much Opera pays, by any chance.

Probably not much, given their marketshare and all... :rolleyes:

How much $$$-Micro$oft-$$$ pays to you?

Can you believe that I defend Opera and I am not aware of any ties between them and me? Only their excellent browser.