Real "new" features in Windows 7.. You guys agree with this?

By dimithrak
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Grand Master

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I think this guy is forgetting that the vast majority of people who will be using Windows 7 don't really know about Linux, even the very popular Ubuntu. Microsoft is speaking to and about users that pretty much only know about Windows. From that standpoint, features they tout as 'new' really are new to most computer users.

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hdood

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Compared to what they could have done? Not really... Explorer and NEXTStep used 10-20mb of ram even in those days.. litestep with all the fruit loaded uses 15mb today.

You can't really claim NEXTStep was a powerful GUI, it was pretty resource hungry in comparison.

Then again, i'm talking about the GUI not the machines and i'm having to guess at the ram usages of NEXTStep based on all the other shells i've seen running.

Erm... That's more memory than machines at the time even had.

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Grand Master

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I don't get it, people have made very insightful posts in this thread, yet some off-topic bitching about Litestep is taking precedence. <sigh />

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Grand Master

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[...]

Shake, Peek, and Snap: The sad thing is that Microsoft PR makes these features out to be big. They?re not, at least when you?ve used KDE and/or Compiz for any length of time. Shake is basically mouse gestures (which you can configure in nearly any Linux desktop), Peek is translucency (again any Compiz install has this), and Snap is effectively edge-snapping hot spots.

[...]

Um, these features are big... at least to me. I've never seen or used these features before because I've only ever used Windows, therefore they're new to me and the Windows operating system.

Why compare these new Windows features to similar features in OS X and Linux, when Microsoft have never commented on another operating system when saying these features are new. These features are new to many users and to the Windows operating system. Microsoft have never stated they are new to Linux and O:sX :s What a silly article.

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Grand Master

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Windows 7 is a good OS. It?s nowhere as powerful or flexible as Ubuntu 9.10 will be

In what sense? If you can get software to do pretty much any task you want, don't they really both have infinte flexibility?

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PurePhoenix

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I don't get it, people have made very insightful posts in this thread, yet some off-topic bitching about Litestep is taking precedence. <sigh />

<Snipped - Max™> The opening poster and microsoft in general are making direct claims to technology that's been in litestep for litterally 2 decades.

It's not off-topic at all =/ Fair enough it's technology new to windows, but that is not how it's worded.

The texts on the issue are very misleading and are deliberately written to insinuate that they are Microsoft innovations.

Which is exactly the same thing they've been doing since windows 95.

Honestly if the LS Devs and plugin wroters chose to, both the linux developer community and microsoft can be sued for fraud.

Sure, the appearance of W7 and it's gadgets isn't all that's been stolen from non-microsoft areas.

However they are the easiest to prove and the most damaging since we learnt for definite once XP was released; To the average computer user, looks matters the most above anything else.

Bitlocker doesn't even work properly, hate to burst your bubble there people but it's rather pointless that it was "Stolen" form ubuntu to begin with.

Not to mention the opening poster was declared wrong on that mark, Ubuntu 9.x was released after windows 7 had bitlocker.

Shake, Peek, and Snap are more features that have been available in litestep either in the base config or via plugins, for over a decade.

Jump lists are a basic adaptation of Litesteps' abilty to have any link in just about any menu.

Play To and Libraries i haven't really wanted to look into; I have my files on location and that's where i like them.

I don't have a need to see ALL my videos in the one folder or etc in fact i specifically PUT THEM in different folders so each folder is categorised and faster navigated.

Basically XP mode and Startup Repair are the only additions to W7 that are not litestep related; Claiming the chatter about litestep isn't on topic is pure ignorance.

That's why i like W7 so much; I don't NEED to run litestep anymore.

Between the new program sticking down the bottom

The pinning of specific programs to the start menu

the global hotkeys (Windows key & #)

Libraries

Navigating in W7 is almost as fast as litestep with a full set of 30 key bindings set up.

Plus i still have the majority of the useful widgets available and i don't have to sacrifice the Aero look in W7 to gain this functionality.

I think if anything you all are misunderstanding just how many ideas used in the "new" explorer in W7 are stolen directly from litestep or are changes implemented to make the new explorer navigated in the same way litestep is.

Edited by Max
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bob_c_b

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Compared to what they could have done? Not really... Explorer and NEXTStep used 10-20mb of ram even in those days.. litestep with all the fruit loaded uses 15mb today.

You can't really claim NEXTStep was a powerful GUI, it was pretty resource hungry in comparison.

Then again, i'm talking about the GUI not the machines and i'm having to guess at the ram usages of NEXTStep based on all the other shells i've seen running.

Maybe you and the other 3 people who care about litestep should go start a forum somewhere. I've been in IT for 14 years and work with some very hardcore geeks, hundreds of serious IT pros and NONE OF THEM have every mentioned litestep in anything more than a passing joke or historical reference. You enjoy it great, but it's not a relevant piece of software no matter how many times you repeat yourself.

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PurePhoenix

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That's nice. Having been in IT circles for equally as long, i'd say you're lucky to have even met someone else who knows about litestep.

That's the biggest reason so many people think this innovations came from KDE and linux.

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Grand Master

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I think if anything you all are misunderstanding just how many ideas used in the "new" explorer in W7 are stolen directly from litestep or are changes implemented to make the new explorer navigated in the same way litestep is.

So, basically you're saying that the majority of Windows 7's new features are ripped directly from Litestep?

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Grand Master

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Are you brain damaged? The opening poster and microsoft in general are making direct claims to technology that's been in litestep for litterally 2 decades.

... more stuff ...

I think if anything you all are misunderstanding just how many ideas used in the "new" explorer in W7 are stolen directly from litestep or are changes implemented to make the new explorer navigated in the same way litestep is.

Pathetic insults aside, that is more on-topic, discussions about your erection for litestep and its footprint compared to 15 year old operating systems have no place in this topic.

Microsoft will never claim to "Invent" these things, but those disclaimers are always in the smallprint. They are well known for their devious tactics in almost everything that they do, but at the end of the day, they make big business from it and they will use it to their advantage until someone lays the smack down. However, to the same extent, the person that wrote the article stated that these were inventions of Ubuntu, and was even more incorrect, many features that were released in Ubuntu 9.04 that the article discusses were also available in Vista, aside from things in Windows 7 such as Aero snap, which were available in Compiz prior to Vista's release.

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justmike

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lol, I do not care where the programs come from. The only thing I really care about is that they work, and are useful. Ford did not invent the wheel, Toyota did not invent the hood, and Honda did not invent the trunk. :rolleyes:

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Mega Goatlord

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That's nice. Having been in IT circles for equally as long, i'd say you're lucky to have even met someone else who knows about litestep.

That's the biggest reason so many people think this innovations came from KDE and linux.

This is laughable.

LiteStep was inspired by AfterStep, which in turn was inspired by Nextstep. LiteStep was initially developed by Francis Gastellu as a closed source project until April 1998 (version b23), and was then entirely rewritten (versions 24 and up) by the newly assembled development team.

You're talking about Litestep like it was some revolutionary concept. It was a COPY of a COPY. Nothing more. Saying they could sue for this or that is idiotic, since none of the crap they did was unique or original to begin with. Let it go man, no one cares about that garbage anymore.

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Subject Delta

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Aero: We all know this isn’t new. And we all know that Linux has had every feature displayed in Aero for some time now. This is one area that really burns my cheeks. Microsoft claims to have redesigned the desktop experience, when in fact they just took ideas from Compiz and OS X and claimed it theirs.

Aero was in Vista betas long before Compiz, and it is superior in terms of look, personally I find Compiz to be a bit rough around the edges and Aero feels a lot more professionally done.

Bit locker: This one is a big one. Bit Locker (Only available in the Ultimate edition) basically allows you to encrypt your entire drive for added security. Umm…Ubuntu Linux has had this starting with 9.04. You can encrypt your home directory during installation. And if you forget that (or decide you want some encryption later on) there are plenty of tools available to encrypt entire directories.

Bitlocker was available in Vista before this feature was added to Ubuntu 9.04 so he evidently needs to look at his history more carefully

Shake, Peek, and Snap: The sad thing is that Microsoft PR makes these features out to be big. They’re not, at least when you’ve used KDE and/or Compiz for any length of time. Shake is basically mouse gestures (which you can configure in nearly any Linux desktop), Peek is translucency (again any Compiz install has this), and Snap is effectively edge-snapping hot spots.

I feel these features are better than using mouse gestures, but I agree that they are pretty minor features that I personally don't even use.

Gadets: Gadgets, Widgets, Screenlets, whatever you want to call them, they are not new in any way shape or form. These desktop “toys” have been around since the days of Karamba on the Linux desktop (remember, that was the tool Apple “purchased” and turned into Dashboard.

Agreed. I have no use for gadgets and widgets at all. Who invented them first is irrelevant, I personally have no use for them

64-bit support: Do I really need to go there? I’ve been happily using 64-bit Linux for so long I can’t remember which release I started with.

Although there was X64 support in the Linux kernel before even Hardware release, I believe XP X64 was the first usable X64 OS, but in reality that is a pretty moot argument, as X64 technology wasn't pioneered by any of those companies.

Jump Lists: This is a re-invention of GNOME Do, or any number of other Linux tools that have offered such a feature. A Jump List is basically a more powerful “Favorites” menu (or box). The biggest difference between Jump List and GNOME Do is that GNOME Do “jumps” better than Jump “does”. What I am trying to say is that “Do” is much more powerful than Jump Lists. But at least Microsoft is starting to learn that making things actually easier for users is a good thing.

Disagreed, I think that the jumplists and taskbar design in Windows 7 are far superior to anything in Linux

Libraries: This feature, which allows you to associated folders with other folders, is essentially the Tagging feature available in Beagle and Tracker. Even Thunar has media tagging by way of a simple plugin. This is nothing new Microsoft.

I am not overly keen on the way Libraries work, WinFS was a whole lot better and its a shame Microsoft pulled the plug on it.

Startup Repair: The Elive distribution recently (prior to the Windows 7 RC release) introduced the Nurse Mode which is a special, graphical boot mode intended to hep repair a system. Nurse Mode is not just a start up repair, but a full system repair tool.

This feature was also in Vista, but you had to boot from the DVD to use it IIRC, again though mainly just pointless semantics about who did what first.

Windows XP Mode: With Linux you can still get your full XP on using VirtualBox or, Wine for that matter. And you won’t need a special CPU capable of hardware assisted virtualization.

On the flip side of that argument, if you use Linux you will need to purchase a valid XP licence, however if you have one of the required SKUs of Windows 7, no additional license purchase is necessary, also virtualisation improves performance, and the integration features XP mode provides are not available in Virtualbox

The above is not a complete feature-for-feature list, but you get the idea. What I find interesting is that Microsoft, Apple, and even the open source community steal from one another. It’s a predatory world out there and only the strong will survive. The biggest difference is that the open source community doesn’t steal from either Windows or OS X and claim the theft their creation.

This guy just sounds like another misinformed FOSS bolshevik to me. There are things in Linux, Windows, and OSX that are other people's ideas.

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PurePhoenix

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And that's all i'm asking for - some accurate representation of historical development.

As far as i've seen through the times, Win 3.1 was the best idea MS had.

Win 95 was an attempt at copying features MS had seen elsewhere, like the unix and NEXTStep desktop environment.

Neither had the capability to modify the context (Right click) menu, that was filched from very early litestep versions and implemented in Win98 onwards.

Although better quality, the layout of the explorer in W7 is a direct match to the stock Austerity theme that came with Litestep years ago.

Global hotkeys is something (Presumably) pinched from litestep and implemented via settings in shortcuts in Windows XP, Win2k and 98 had shortcut keys in the shortcut properties, but they weren't global and hell, didn't work even if you had the desktop as the window in focus a majority of the time.

Windows 7 integrating key shortcuts such as Windows key & 1 to launch an app are a rather late and poor attempt at trying to provide functionality litestep and others have had for over a decade, but the end result is teh same;

Wether you're an advanced user or new to computing, it seems W7 is rather easily picked up by all.

I think the most important part of this thread ironically, is it's irrelevance.

The real features of W7 are DirectX 11, Proper SSD support and others i probably haven't learnt about yet.

Why was the OP so cut about a few graphical styles pinched when it's little more than eye candy, realistically?

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PurePhoenix

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You're talking about Litestep like it was some revolutionary concept. It was a COPY of a COPY. Nothing more. Saying they could sue for this or that is idiotic, since none of the crap they did was unique or original to begin with. Let it go man, no one cares about that garbage anymore.

How would you know? By your own admittance you've never used it. You don't know. So quit trolling and recognise that i do know because i have been using it since.... well, practically since it was released.

Edited by Colin-uk
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Grand Master

zeta_immersion

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win "borrows" what people like in otehr os's and make them available to the win comunity ... nothing wrong with that

granted they are slow because they have a huge fanbase hey have to satisfy but they are doing their best ...

linux is good same as with osx ... but more tailtored to people that use them ...

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PurePhoenix

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You've been using LiteStep since version 1.0 was release in, what was it, 1997?

LS still isn't version 1.0, it's 0.24.7 so i don't know why you're trying to guage how long i've been using it "since 1.0"

Beta 23 was released in 98 and marks a significant change in LS history as it actually went open source.

It's been a closed development project sine 89 iirc.

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Mega Goatlord

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How would you know? By your own admittance you've never used it. You don't know. So quit trolling like some arrogant kid and recognise that i do know because i have been using it since.... well, practically since it was released.

Where did I admit to never having used it? I *did* use it, briefly, and thought it was inferior in every way to both Afterstep and Windowmaker, the latter of which was my main desktop UI for the majority of the late '90s, since Slackware was my main OS from '97 until the release of XP. Got any more questions, or should I just write up my autobiography?

Litestep is/was crap, and has no bearing, relevence or impact on either Windows 7 or this thread at all. Period. Let it go man.

LS still isn't version 1.0, it's 0.24.7 so i don't know why you're trying to guage how long i've been using it "since 1.0"

Beta 23 was released in 98 and marks a significant change in LS history as it actually went open source.

It's been a closed development project sine 89 iirc.

You really need to check your dates. Once again, Litestep was based on Afterstep, which didn't come out until the mid-90s. I don't know where you got this idea that it started development in '89, predating the creation of that which it was designed to emulate.

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LS still isn't version 1.0, it's 0.24.7 so i don't know why you're trying to guage how long i've been using it "since 1.0"

Beta 23 was released in 98 and marks a significant change in LS history as it actually went open source.

It's been a closed development project sine 89 iirc.

You should read the page he linked to, because it explains this.

I also doubt a replacement shell for Windows 95 was in development 6 years before 95 was released.

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